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Is it Too early to put Grigo and Bust in the same sentence?

theesir

By theesir
in The Aud Club

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nfreeman Hall of Famer

nfreeman

Posted
Posted

The legs feed the wolf is a quote about fitness not skating ability. I'm glad to see the KHL argument pops up again, for a moment I was worried people were forgetting how greedy and desperate for the motherland these Ruskis are

 

Geez. You make it sound like the KHL flight risk is some whacked-out theory from another planet that could never happen. It's happened a number of times, and the number of Russians in the NHL is decreasing, not increasing.

Trettioåtta Second Liner

Trettioåtta

Posted
Posted

Geez. You make it sound like the KHL flight risk is some whacked-out theory from another planet that could never happen. It's happened a number of times, and the number of Russians in the NHL is decreasing, not increasing.

 

There is one good league in north America, the NHL, the other leagues (AHL, ECHL, CHL etc.) are all inferior to European ones (primarily the KHL, SHL and Liiga). Therefore it makes sense that a player who cannot make it in the NHL, but is not far off the NHL, go to Europe. Even North American guys do this, e.g. Mike Ryan.

 

So if we have a fringe NHL player going to Europe they have to pick one of the three big leagues to play in. Now a North American player probably has no real ties to any of these leagues or countries, so will just pick the league that suits their playing style, or the country they would most want to live in. However, a European player probably has other ties to Europe, e.g. friends and family. Therefore when returning to Europe they will probably play for a team in the country they grew up in. This explains why Russians generally go to the KHL, not the SHL.

 

However, these guys are just fringe NHL players anyway, so their loss doesn't really matter. If Omark goes back to the SHL at the end of this season, have the Sabres or the NHL really lost a talent that cannot be replaced, and thus has their absence hurt the game (as a game will always be better/more enjoyable/more watched if the best in the world are playing it) - honestly, no it hasn't lost much

 

Thus there is only one situation where European players returning to the European leagues hurts the NHL - that is when they are good enough to get good playing time. This is the only time it matters to the team drafting/signing a player. Zagrapan didn't go to Europe because he didn't want to play in the NHL. He went because he wasn't good enough.

 

With this in mind, we now have to answer the question how regularly do top 6/9 forwards, top 4 d-men or decent goalies return to Europe? I.e. how much of a risk is it? The answer is almost never. There are three players in the KHL who could be playing decent minutes in the NHL - Radulov, Brumistrov and Kovulchuk. (I'm sure there are other guys in Europe who could also play in the NHL but have never made the move, e.g. similar to Damien Brunner, but they are unknowns and their absence doesn't affect much)

 

Kovulchuk left after the NHL went on strike and he ended up playing in front of his friends and family whilst earning more money than he would in the NHL and enjoying it as much/more so. He didn't defect from the NHL, they gave him away and he decided not to return. It isn't surprising it happened and the NHL should be glad there were not more European players not wanting to return.

 

Brumistrov hated Winnepeg and asked to be traded, when they didn't agree to it he signed with another club. The moral here is that players have options and as human beings if they are that unhappy you are best off trying to help them rather than force them to play.

 

Radulov is an example of this Russian desire to return home. But he is literally the only one, and because of him an agreement with the KHL was formed, protecting all future players under contract.

 

Players like Grigorenko left their home and friends at age 15/16 to go to North America because they wanted to play in the NHL, combined with the fact that Radulov is the only one who did flee from the NHL I don't agree with this branding of all Russian players as greedy flight risks. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is a xenophobic hangover from the cold war.

darksabre Hall of Famer

darksabre

Posted
Posted

Send him to the Q with a list of areas where they need to see improvement and closely monitor his progress. Once his junior team is done for the year, off to the Amerks for an even closer eyeballing.

 

I just don't want him anywhere near a Sabres roster.

Huckleberry All Star

Huckleberry

Posted
Posted

Sending him back to juniors doesn't guarantee Grigorenko playing time.

The remparts are already maxed out on their foreign kids and don't know if he still fits into their plans.

I say keep him here or loan him to a european league.

Trettioåtta Second Liner

Trettioåtta

Posted
Posted

Sending him back to juniors doesn't guarantee Grigorenko playing time.

The remparts are already maxed out on their foreign kids and don't know if he still fits into their plans.

I say keep him here or loan him to a european league.

 

If the Remparts reject him, due to too many foreign kids, doesn't that mean he can go to the AHL? (a.k.a. perfect situation)

 

Sadly I think the Remparts would trade a foreign kid for nothing to get Grigo back

inkman Hall of Famer

inkman

Posted
Posted

I really, really want to see this kid loaned to a Euro league.

Is their a team in the Euro leagues that already has a Sabres prospect or two. Teaming him up with Grigs could pay dividends in the future.

 

:lol:

 

Reasons I don't smoke...

I knew the writing was on the wall when they moved the cancer stick club to right behind the rotten tomato dumpster, in front of the train track. The hint wasn't subtle. Luckily, I quit soon thereafter.

LGR4GM Hall of Famer

LGR4GM

Posted
Posted

If the Remparts reject him, due to too many foreign kids, doesn't that mean he can go to the AHL? (a.k.a. perfect situation)

 

Sadly I think the Remparts would trade a foreign kid for nothing to get Grigo back

The Remparts I believe have only 2 options. They can trade 1 of their foreign players (including grigs) or they can relinquish their rights to Grigs. If they do the 2nd he could then be sent to Rochester. I am not sure if a third option of sitting him or another foreign player in some sort of rotation is allowed (I am guessing no). Seems like either Remparts can trade his rights or relinquish them if they don't want him back.

 

Is their a team in the Euro leagues that already has a Sabres prospect or two. Teaming him up with Grigs could pay dividends in the future.

Modo has Gustav Possler (winger) and Linus Ullmark who are both Sabres prospects. If a deal could be worked out he could play in the SHL for them. Unsure as to the realistic possibility of this happening.

26CornerBlitz First Liner

26CornerBlitz

Posted
Posted

The Remparts I believe have only 2 options. They can trade 1 of their foreign players (including grigs) or they can relinquish their rights to Grigs. If they do the 2nd he could then be sent to Rochester. I am not sure if a third option of sitting him or another foreign player in some sort of rotation is allowed (I am guessing no). Seems like either Remparts can trade his rights or relinquish them if they don't want him back.

 

My understanding is that the QMJHL trade period closes tomorrow at noon and Quebec can have three imports play if Grigorenko's returned after that.

 

Sounds like PLF, Nolan, et al. are waiting for this.

Trettioåtta Second Liner

Trettioåtta

Posted
Posted

Isn't the Q's trade deadline tomorrow? If the plan is to send him back to juniors, I'd hope LaFontaine has been in contact with the Remparts before today to try to find a solution.

My understanding is that the QMJHL trade period closes tomorrow at noon and Quebec can have three imports play if Grigorenko's returned after that.

 

Sounds like PLF, Nolan, et al. are waiting for this.

 

Would be a devious way to force the Remarts into releasing Grigo

Huckleberry All Star

Huckleberry

Posted
Posted

that would be nice, the remparts will have to many imports, reject him and we can send him to Rochester :D

 

Would be a devious way to force the Remarts into releasing Grigo

 

who needs a gm ? :D

qwksndmonster All Star

qwksndmonster

Posted
Posted

The legs feed the wolf is a quote about fitness not skating ability. I'm glad to see the KHL argument pops up again, for a moment I was worried people were forgetting how greedy and desperate for the motherland these Ruskis are

Russians are too lazy for desperation.

 

Thank you. Nothing about Grigorenko says KHL flight risk, but we've had to hear it time and time again. Good break down.

Taro T Hall of Famer

Taro T

Posted
Posted

Would be a devious way to force the Remarts into releasing Grigo

If DR were still doing the strategizing, I wouldn't've been surprised to see that end up forcing him to be teamless until the Remparts' season was done. :doh:

LGR4GM Hall of Famer

LGR4GM

Posted
Posted

My understanding is that the QMJHL trade period closes tomorrow at noon and Quebec can have three imports play if Grigorenko's returned after that.

 

Sounds like PLF, Nolan, et al. are waiting for this.

hmm good to know. also the waivers part is something to consider. Either way he needs playing time.

Kristian First Liner

Kristian

Posted
Posted

I don't think Grigs is good enough to play significant minutes in the SHL.

 

There, I said it.

 

A year in Allsvenskan may change that.

 

The Finnish SM-Liiga might also be a better spot for him.

nfreeman Hall of Famer

nfreeman

Posted
Posted
There is one good league in north America, the NHL, the other leagues (AHL, ECHL, CHL etc.) are all inferior to European ones (primarily the KHL, SHL and Liiga). Therefore it makes sense that a player who cannot make it in the NHL, but is not far off the NHL, go to Europe. Even North American guys do this, e.g. Mike Ryan. So if we have a fringe NHL player going to Europe they have to pick one of the three big leagues to play in. Now a North American player probably has no real ties to any of these leagues or countries, so will just pick the league that suits their playing style, or the country they would most want to live in. However, a European player probably has other ties to Europe, e.g. friends and family. Therefore when returning to Europe they will probably play for a team in the country they grew up in. This explains why Russians generally go to the KHL, not the SHL. However, these guys are just fringe NHL players anyway, so their loss doesn't really matter. If Omark goes back to the SHL at the end of this season, have the Sabres or the NHL really lost a talent that cannot be replaced, and thus has their absence hurt the game (as a game will always be better/more enjoyable/more watched if the best in the world are playing it) - honestly, no it hasn't lost much Thus there is only one situation where European players returning to the European leagues hurts the NHL - that is when they are good enough to get good playing time. This is the only time it matters to the team drafting/signing a player. Zagrapan didn't go to Europe because he didn't want to play in the NHL. He went because he wasn't good enough. With this in mind, we now have to answer the question how regularly do top 6/9 forwards, top 4 d-men or decent goalies return to Europe? I.e. how much of a risk is it? The answer is almost never. There are three players in the KHL who could be playing decent minutes in the NHL - Radulov, Brumistrov and Kovulchuk. (I'm sure there are other guys in Europe who could also play in the NHL but have never made the move, e.g. similar to Damien Brunner, but they are unknowns and their absence doesn't affect much) Kovulchuk left after the NHL went on strike and he ended up playing in front of his friends and family whilst earning more money than he would in the NHL and enjoying it as much/more so. He didn't defect from the NHL, they gave him away and he decided not to return. It isn't surprising it happened and the NHL should be glad there were not more European players not wanting to return. Brumistrov hated Winnepeg and asked to be traded, when they didn't agree to it he signed with another club. The moral here is that players have options and as human beings if they are that unhappy you are best off trying to help them rather than force them to play. Radulov is an example of this Russian desire to return home. But he is literally the only one, and because of him an agreement with the KHL was formed, protecting all future players under contract. Players like Grigorenko left their home and friends at age 15/16 to go to North America because they wanted to play in the NHL, combined with the fact that Radulov is the only one who did flee from the NHL I don't agree with this branding of all Russian players as greedy flight risks. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is a xenophobic hangover from the cold war.

 

First, I didn't say "greedy." Let's step a bit more lightly on the accusations.

 

Second, I think your distinctions between Radulov, Burmistrov and Kovy are a bit artificial. All 3 of them chose to leave NHL teams because they preferred to play in their home country. Burmistrov and perhaps Radulov were unhappy with their NHL situations, which made the KHL even more appealing. But the key point is that all 3 of them, for whatever reason, could have played in the NHL but chose to go home instead.

 

Third, and most importantly, I don't think it's xenophobic to look at Radulov, Burmistrov and Kovy and conclude that the KHL poses a flight risk for Russian players. There are only about 25 Russians currently playing in the NHL -- down from about 65 ten years ago. Clearly the NHL has become less appealing over time to Russian players.

 

I would also point out that there's nothing wrong, IMHO, with Russians preferring to play at home, in many cases for more cash. We just shouldn't kid ourselves that no flight risk exists for a talented Russian kid who's been unable to make an impression at the NHL level and who's received plenty of criticism in the process.

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