sicknfla Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Posted September 19, 2013 Wasn't perry and getslaf also in the last year of both their deals last year? It was also a mistake IMO but its not like they're the first team to ever do this And they paid for it. As of today, the Sedins are both scheduled to become UFAs next summer. True but I think we can agree thats a unique situation.
Derrico Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 If we paid these two in the offseason or near the deadline were still going to pay for it big time.
dudacek Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Henrik Lundquist is in his last year. Marian Gaborik. Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Dion Phaneuf, Phil Kessel, Marty Brodeur... There's more: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=-1&fa_type_id=2
sicknfla Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Posted September 19, 2013 Henrik Lundquist is in his last year. Marian Gaborik. Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Dion Phaneuf, Phil Kessel, Marty Brodeur... There's more: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=-1&fa_type_id=2 Are any of these teams "rebuilding"? Have any of these players told management they wanted no part of a rebuild. I don't think so. Gaborik was traded at the last deadline btw. Kessels off season home is 5 minutes from me. His next team is Tampa - mark that down right now. Lundquist can sign with NY for 2 million less per season and still make more playing in NY. Brodeur is retiring. Every situation is different. I am discussing our situation. When you announce to the world you are rebuilding then you laid your cards on the table. Sitting around with your thumb in your ass makes you look like a bigger idiot than we already thought you were. Can you imagine being Miller or Vaneks agent? Every day that goes by my price goes up and I just keep mentioning Drury/Briere. If I am another teams GM and DR calls to make a trade I simply say this is what I am giving you. If you don't like it I will just sign him July 1. Then I would mention Drury/Briere for good measure.
bunomatic Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Playoffs. These guys are going to need to take their lumps and get the much needed experience as a group and grow together. You can't gain anything from playing golf except a better handicap
spndnchz Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 As of today, the Sedins are both scheduled to become UFAs next summer. What are they? Like 50 years old?
thesportsbuff Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Are any of these teams "rebuilding"? Have any of these players told management they wanted no part of a rebuild. I don't think so. Gaborik was traded at the last deadline btw. Kessels off season home is 5 minutes from me. His next team is Tampa - mark that down right now. Lundquist can sign with NY for 2 million less per season and still make more playing in NY. Brodeur is retiring. Every situation is different. I am discussing our situation. When you announce to the world you are rebuilding then you laid your cards on the table. Sitting around with your thumb in your ass makes you look like a bigger idiot than we already thought you were. Can you imagine being Miller or Vaneks agent? Every day that goes by my price goes up and I just keep mentioning Drury/Briere. If I am another teams GM and DR calls to make a trade I simply say this is what I am giving you. If you don't like it I will just sign him July 1. Then I would mention Drury/Briere for good measure. I understand your concern, I'll be pretty peeved too if both walk on July 1st and sign elsewhere. But I'm not sure the situation as dire as you think -- I don't put in any stock into what the media says a player said. I mean obviously no player, especially a star player like Vanek or Miller, "wants" to be part of a long rebuild... but who says this has to be a long rebuild? That doesn't necessarily mean either wants out, unless the plan is a 5-year rebuild (hint: it's not). And the fact that Vanek came out last week and felt the need to clarify that he never asked for a trade is enough to tell me the media is spinning the story their own way. Remember last season (or was it the one before? I really can't remember haha) when the reporters went to Miller and terribly misquoted/out-of-contexted something Kaleta said, provoking a heated response from Miller? And then they ran with it, until Miller heard what Kaleta had actually said and was like, "wtf." The NHL, rumor sites, The Buffalo News, etc... all these outlets benefit from people thinking Miller and Vanek want a trade ASAP because they get people coming back to their websites every day to see if anything has transpired. Until I hear it from the players themselves, I'm not so certain I believe that either player "wants" out... it's easy to have your words twisted when you're trying to give the politically correct answer. "I don't want to play through a long rebuild" isn't the same as "Get me out of here!" It's probably just the optimist in me but I don't see any reason the Sabres can't re-sign one, if not both, of their star players if things go well this season. Here's a tidbit from CBS Sports today: http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/23593867/nhl-rumors-sabres-willing-to-keep-salary-in-potential-thomas-vanek-deal Elliotte Friedman tweeted, "Hearing BUF has told teams it is willing keep some of Thomas Vanek's salary -- providing Sabres get a deal they like." Now, don't get me wrong, Friedman is very well respected and not a "rumor monger".. but I mean, isn't that obvious? Teams can't even sign free agents they want right now because of cap space issues.. it'd be extremely hard to fit Vanek's cap hit on most teams with assets to trade. And being that there's only 1 year remaining on his contract anyway, why wouldn't you keep salary if it sweetens the return? Again.. not exactly breaking news... just more "rumors" to keep the fish biting.
Bullwinkle III Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 I would take a top 5 pick any time. To have a shot at Reinhart in 2014 and McDavid (The Franchise) in 2015, is worth anything less than The Cup.
TheMatrix31 Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Playoffs any day. You play to win. You can't win unless you're not in. It's hockey, not basketball. Get hot at the right time and you can go deep or even win it all. You can't foster a winning culture by actively promoting a losing one.
nucci Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Let me ask this....if the playoffs start tomorrow and the Sabres are in....are you excited or would you prefer a high draft pick? The Sabres have enough high draft choices on the roster. Life is too short. I want playoffs. I would take a top 5 pick any time. To have a shot at Reinhart in 2014 and McDavid (The Franchise) in 2015, is worth anything less than The Cup. Really? Anytime? So you would sit through the next 5 years with a losing team and no playoffs just to get top 5 picks? Ridiculous.
Corp000085 Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 You have a choice between this : and this: Tough choice...
That Aud Smell Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 You have a choice between this : Tough choice... well played, corp. also, this guy.
LGR4GM Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 My point in asking this questions was for two reasons. One most of us are ok with the rebuild idea in May. Come September we want a respectable hockey team. That is not too much to ask for. Second and this is a little more important is what has transpired since the trade deadline has set this team back 2 years. Not moving Vanek/Miller prior to this past draft was huge. Any picks we get for them now will be less valued 2014 picks or 2015 picks. Either way that was another example of how inept DR is. To go into this season with arguably your two best players in their final year is something that would only happen in Buffalo. How can this happen? How can you roll the dice like that? Their trade value is gone - as is any chance to resign them unless you grossly overpay. The picks and prospects from these two have us competing in 2014. Instead, we now burn this year and hope that the players we get from them are ready by 2015 at the earliest. Like I said from the start. Most of us want to compete. To put a competitive team on the ice this year was a couple moves away. Instead, we spend the rest of the season waiting to take two steps back and one step forward - AGAIN!! Since I was beating the tank drum last season I have 2 things to say based on the bold sentences. 1) You assume there was a deal in place that Darcy passed on that would have netted us 1st round 2013 draft pick/s for Miller and or Vanek. Now Miller maybe you could argue was worth just the pick but where in the 1st round? The only team that was ranked above us that was even hinted at wanting to trade was Carolina at #5. They wouldn't have interest in Miller. So what about Vanek? Thomas Vanek is and was worth more than simply a 1st round pick even in this past draft. Similar to Jason Pominville, Vanek has to return more than just a pick. Outside of the top 10ish guys the draft becomes more and more of a crap shoot. So even if you could get #5 from Carolina for Vanek (which I don't think you would have) or #6 Calgary (possible) what else would you be getting? It goes deeper than just a first round pick. 2013 first rounders were worth more by evidence of the lack of trading that occurred at the draft. Bluntly stating that Darcy Regier has now set the team back 2 years because he didn't trade Miller AND Vanek is an unsubstantiated claim. What if they resign? What if he trades them this season for X,Y, or Z and that return would be better. That draft did not occur in a vacuum. Also the 2015 draft is still almost 2 full years away, no one knows what that will look like yet. 2) Everything in the second bold statement is inaccurate. A ton of teams have UFA's with big names on expiring deals. http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=-1&fa_type_id=2 Take a look at capgeek. SJ has Thorton and Marleua as expiring UFA's. You could argue that they aren't in a rebuild and that might be true. But you can't sell off every single guy you have in a rebuild you need to keep star players. Darcy is taking a gamble with Vanek, that is obvious to me but he has to take it. The guy is something like 10th in goals scored over the last 7 years. Their trade value is not gone. This statement is flat out false. UFA's with expiring deals get traded at the deadline every single year. Jerome Iginla was traded just last season for a bunch of stuff. This is perhaps the biggest false narrative that pervades this board outside of the bizarre belief we have smaller forwards than anyone else. Final point is the overpay to resign. If they hit UFA they will be overpaid. If they stay they will be paid what they are worth plus some extra for being our best guys. Personally I think Miller is out. We have enough GT talent to move on from him. As for Vanek, a long term high money deal keeps him here. In 2007 we overpaid for him and by now he is worth every penny. Guys who are good and on expiring deals get big bucks and get a little overpaid. However that is all relative to the cap. Grossly overpaying? I don't see that as the case. Either they want to stay or they do not and considering the UFA market grossly overpays I don't think you can you can make this argument. In summary, I disagree with the conclusions you are trying to draw on all the bold points. You can't predict into the future 2 years to know if we are set back or right where we need to be. Maybe past this trade deadline you could make some of these arguments if Vanek and Miller are still here and they don't get resigned, walking away for nothing. As for right now you can't say most of this. I think trying to bate us with the question and then turning it into a "Why didn't Darcy trade Miller and Vanek?" conversation is also highly questionable. I am not a darcy fan but this is a deliberate attempt to railroad the decisions made this offseason before we know the full impact of those decisions. Finally, outside of Drury and Briere in 2007 what top players have the Sabres let go for nothing? The correct answer is none. Fear mongering and nothing more.
Peppy22 Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 Playoffs Because we have a pretty pretty young team. A playoff series would mean the world to these guys in case of development.
sicknfla Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Posted September 19, 2013 Since I was beating the tank drum last season I have 2 things to say based on the bold sentences. 1) You assume there was a deal in place that Darcy passed on that would have netted us 1st round 2013 draft pick/s for Miller and or Vanek. Now Miller maybe you could argue was worth just the pick but where in the 1st round? The only team that was ranked above us that was even hinted at wanting to trade was Carolina at #5. They wouldn't have interest in Miller. So what about Vanek? Thomas Vanek is and was worth more than simply a 1st round pick even in this past draft. Similar to Jason Pominville, Vanek has to return more than just a pick. Outside of the top 10ish guys the draft becomes more and more of a crap shoot. So even if you could get #5 from Carolina for Vanek (which I don't think you would have) or #6 Calgary (possible) what else would you be getting? It goes deeper than just a first round pick. 2013 first rounders were worth more by evidence of the lack of trading that occurred at the draft. Bluntly stating that Darcy Regier has now set the team back 2 years because he didn't trade Miller AND Vanek is an unsubstantiated claim. What if they resign? What if he trades them this season for X,Y, or Z and that return would be better. That draft did not occur in a vacuum. Also the 2015 draft is still almost 2 full years away, no one knows what that will look like yet. 2) Everything in the second bold statement is inaccurate. A ton of teams have UFA's with big names on expiring deals. http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=-1&fa_type_id=2 Take a look at capgeek. SJ has Thorton and Marleua as expiring UFA's. You could argue that they aren't in a rebuild and that might be true. But you can't sell off every single guy you have in a rebuild you need to keep star players. Darcy is taking a gamble with Vanek, that is obvious to me but he has to take it. The guy is something like 10th in goals scored over the last 7 years. Their trade value is not gone. This statement is flat out false. UFA's with expiring deals get traded at the deadline every single year. Jerome Iginla was traded just last season for a bunch of stuff. This is perhaps the biggest false narrative that pervades this board outside of the bizarre belief we have smaller forwards than anyone else. Final point is the overpay to resign. If they hit UFA they will be overpaid. If they stay they will be paid what they are worth plus some extra for being our best guys. Personally I think Miller is out. We have enough GT talent to move on from him. As for Vanek, a long term high money deal keeps him here. In 2007 we overpaid for him and by now he is worth every penny. Guys who are good and on expiring deals get big bucks and get a little overpaid. However that is all relative to the cap. Grossly overpaying? I don't see that as the case. Either they want to stay or they do not and considering the UFA market grossly overpays I don't think you can you can make this argument. In summary, I disagree with the conclusions you are trying to draw on all the bold points. You can't predict into the future 2 years to know if we are set back or right where we need to be. Maybe past this trade deadline you could make some of these arguments if Vanek and Miller are still here and they don't get resigned, walking away for nothing. As for right now you can't say most of this. I think trying to bate us with the question and then turning it into a "Why didn't Darcy trade Miller and Vanek?" conversation is also highly questionable. I am not a darcy fan but this is a deliberate attempt to railroad the decisions made this offseason before we know the full impact of those decisions. Finally, outside of Drury and Briere in 2007 what top players have the Sabres let go for nothing? The correct answer is none. Fear mongering and nothing more. This was not a bait. It was to see where our mindset is now. After the season we all want rebuild. Prior to the season we want competitiveness. The point I am making with setting us back is simple. First, you are assuming I want Miller/Vanek traded. Actually I want Vanek resigned. You are also assuming that I think they are only worth draft picks. No- but draft picks will be part of the equation and if the picks you get in '13 have more value than '14 then it's all the more reason to pull the trigger. My point is a good GM makes does not let it go this long. If signing him is not in the plans then the sooner you get value back for them the quicker you rebuild. We all can agree that the 2013 draft was much stronger. I guarantee you offers were available that would have had us with 1or 2 more first round picks. You are also assuming I was thinking top 5. I would rather have those players in the system NOW than after the '14 or '15 draft. As a gm you have to know when to maximize your return. Nobody is going to tell me that DR has done this by hanging onto these guys. AGAIN, if Vanek is in the long term plans he should have been extended before the strike. I hope I look dumb thinking this way in 6 months. I am sorry but I have zero confidence that this is going to end good. No argument in the world is going to convince me that this was handled correctly. As for the other FA's. Again, every situation is different. We all know our situation. Take a look at the last ten cup winners. How many of those run their front office like ours. How many of those organizations would allow two players to basically dictate the direction the team is heading. NONE!! We can root for our prospects all we want. Bottom line is this is not a cup capable winning front office. We all know that. So that brings up the original part of my post. Just give us a competitive team and see what happens. Stop selling the rebuilding to win a cup crap. Only one team can win it every year anyhow. Just put a team on the ice that gives us a chance. If you have a chance anything can happen. Personally, I really don't want to start seeing who we think we can draft in Feb. I want to be rooting for a respectable team in feb. These clowns in the front office owe us at least that much.
LGR4GM Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 This was not a bait. It was to see where our mindset is now. After the season we all want rebuild. Prior to the season we want competitiveness. The point I am making with setting us back is simple. First, you are assuming I want Miller/Vanek traded. Actually I want Vanek resigned. You are also assuming that I think they are only worth draft picks. No- but draft picks will be part of the equation and if the picks you get in '13 have more value than '14 then it's all the more reason to pull the trigger. My point is a good GM makes does not let it go this long. If signing him is not in the plans then the sooner you get value back for them the quicker you rebuild. We all can agree that the 2013 draft was much stronger. I guarantee you offers were available that would have had us with 1or 2 more first round picks. You are also assuming I was thinking top 5. I would rather have those players in the system NOW than after the '14 or '15 draft. As a gm you have to know when to maximize your return. Nobody is going to tell me that DR has done this by hanging onto these guys. AGAIN, if Vanek is in the long term plans he should have been extended before the strike. I hope I look dumb thinking this way in 6 months. I am sorry but I have zero confidence that this is going to end good. No argument in the world is going to convince me that this was handled correctly. As for the other FA's. Again, every situation is different. We all know our situation. Take a look at the last ten cup winners. How many of those run their front office like ours. How many of those organizations would allow two players to basically dictate the direction the team is heading. NONE!! We can root for our prospects all we want. Bottom line is this is not a cup capable winning front office. We all know that. So that brings up the original part of my post. Just give us a competitive team and see what happens. Stop selling the rebuilding to win a cup crap. Only one team can win it every year anyhow. Just put a team on the ice that gives us a chance. If you have a chance anything can happen. Personally, I really don't want to start seeing who we think we can draft in Feb. I want to be rooting for a respectable team in feb. These clowns in the front office owe us at least that much. Again I disagree with your conclusions. You are assuming that Vanek/Miller have not resigned because of Darcy. Versus both there stated positions of wanting to wait and see. I think if DR had gotten a good deal he would have pulled the trigger just like he did in the Pominville deal. They are not dictating the future of this team. We are clearly moving forward. You can guarantee that DR was offered 1 or 2 first round picks plus what? That is the key. Look at the Jason Pominville deal. You are looking at 1 draft and 1 pick with no regards for what else was involved. It is short sighted and narrow minded. Pominville, Zadorov, Larsson, Hackett and a 2nd in 2014. What if all 3 of them are on the cup team? What if instead of waiting DR traded Pominville for something else not as good? You simply do not know and I completely disagree with your last two posts. Sorry but until we see how the Vanek/Miller thing shakes out (miller is done here impo) we don't know. You need theories to fit facts not conjecture.
sicknfla Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Posted September 19, 2013 All one needs is to look at the history. I will check back with you on trade deadline day or July 1 and see what you think then.
LGR4GM Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 All one needs is to look at the history. I will check back with you on trade deadline day or July 1 and see what you think then. But it isn't trade deadline day or July 1. It is September 19th. If and I say this in the Miller thread, these guys haven't signed by the deadline you trade them. How I will view the situation by March or July is entirely dependent on what happens btw now and then.
sicknfla Posted September 19, 2013 Author Report Posted September 19, 2013 But it isn't trade deadline day or July 1. It is September 19th. If and I say this in the Miller thread, these guys haven't signed by the deadline you trade them. How I will view the situation by March or July is entirely dependent on what happens btw now and then. Correct. It is Sept 19th. And since it has not been resolved by now I will get your opinion after it all plays out. I truly hope you can say "I told you so".
LTS Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 insane question. I take playoffs, every time, without regard to anything else. This game is played to win and there is evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that you can turn it around. There is also evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that losing will continue. I will never understand this losing mentality. It's okay to suck to get better in the future. This is indicative of our culture of mediocrity and acceptance of lower effort. It's rationalizing the purpose. How about instead of sucking to get better the mentality is you try harder to get better.
darksabre Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 insane question. I take playoffs, every time, without regard to anything else. This game is played to win and there is evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that you can turn it around. There is also evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that losing will continue. I will never understand this losing mentality. It's okay to suck to get better in the future. This is indicative of our culture of mediocrity and acceptance of lower effort. It's rationalizing the purpose. How about instead of sucking to get better the mentality is you try harder to get better. You won't catch me rooting for a top five pick this year, that's for sure.
Weave Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 insane question. I take playoffs, every time, without regard to anything else. This game is played to win and there is evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that you can turn it around. There is also evidence provided by teams that win and teams that lose that losing will continue. I will never understand this losing mentality. It's okay to suck to get better in the future. This is indicative of our culture of mediocrity and acceptance of lower effort. It's rationalizing the purpose. How about instead of sucking to get better the mentality is you try harder to get better. You won't catch me rooting for a top five pick this year, that's for sure. I think we've now got MOST of what we are going to need to be a very good team in the relatively near future. I don't think there is a real good reason to root for top 5 pick right now. having said that, I expect that this team will be closer to bottom 5 than they will be to top 8. I'm not rooting for it, but I expect it given the youth on the team.
MattPie Posted September 19, 2013 Report Posted September 19, 2013 I think we've now got MOST of what we are going to need to be a very good team in the relatively near future. I don't think there is a real good reason to root for top 5 pick right now. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but realistically At least 2 of the 5 first picks from this year will never make an impact on the NHL. Unless we really believe there's some drafting genuis that's going to overturn years and years of history.
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