Miller.......what if?

[Huckleberry]

There's pretty much no version of the plan where Miller makes a lot of sense. He's 34 next year. We want to give him a six year contract? He'll be 34 to 39. We're currently rebuilding around guys drafted in 2008 or later. And from Miller's perspective, why would he want to spend the last years of his prime with the Sabres? He's good enough to make sure they don't finish dead last in the league but he can't help them make the playoffs. He hasn't had a legitimate chance at a Cup since 2007 and another team could give him that.

 

If the Ducks are interested, they have a lot of prospects that could help us. It's a little tougher to figure out what we could ask for (and get) from the Blues, but there's probably a deal to be made there too.

 

We can't trade Pominville and Vanek, and then panic and try to hold onto UFAs like Miller, Ott, and Moulson. You're either rebuilding or you're not.

 

Only difference is, Vanek and Pominville never intended to finish their careers in buffalo i think. I think Miller has more love for this team.

[JJFIVEOH]

Comparing Miller to Stafford doesn't advance your point. It only hurts your credibility.

I guess that depends on how you choose to translate my point. Obviously you translated it differently that I presented it.

As for feeling privileged, I assume you are asking (rhetorically) whether the Sabres should feel privileged if Miller chooses to stay. I think the answer to that is yes -- i.e. when a star player chooses to sign with a team that is dead last in the NHL, and that team is on pace to score the fewest goals in the NHL in 30+ years (so the star player, a goalie, is getting a historically low level of support), and that team has been mismanaged and poorly constructed such that it has gotten worse every year for the last 5 years -- then yes, that team should feel privileged if that star player chooses to sign with that team.

Your definition of a 'star' must be different from mine. He is part of the core, time to move on. Miller will revert right back to the Miller of old as soon as the Olympics are done.

 

Only difference is, Vanek and Pominville never intended to finish their careers in buffalo i think. I think Miller has more love for this team.

 

Miller's disdain for this team couldn't be more apparent without actually saying it straight out. He's made it much more obvious that Pominville and Vanek ever did. But, that's just my perspective. ;)

[Trettioåtta]

Miller's disdain for this team couldn't be more apparent without actually saying it straight out. He's made it much more obvious that Pominville and Vanek ever did. But, that's just my perspective. ;)

 

How did I know you'd be at the heart of this discussion (with views that are polar opposite to me) :P

 

I think Miller loves this team more than them and that is why he has disdain for it. He hates how bad it is. He does not hate the Buffalo Sabres. I think Vanek said less about the state of the team because he didn't care, he was happy to jump ship and move to a team with the parts in place. His personality also means I doubt he could live with being a weak link on a team. Put a good team in front of him and he will carry you to the finals. His game also relies on positioning and reading the play, so age should not wear him, nor the years condemn.

 

Miller is a damn good goalie who is vocal and demands the best of his teammates, hard to argue with that. 5 years 40mil

[JJFIVEOH]

How did I know you'd be at the heart of this discussion (with views that are polar opposite to me) :P

 

I think Miller loves this team more than them and that is why he has disdain for it. He hates how bad it is. He does not hate the Buffalo Sabres. I think Vanek said less about the state of the team because he didn't care, he was happy to jump ship and move to a team with the parts in place. His personality also means I doubt he could live with being a weak link on a team. Put a good team in front of him and he will carry you to the finals. His game also relies on positioning and reading the play, so age should not wear him, nor the years condemn.

 

Miller is a damn good goalie who is vocal and demands the best of his teammates, hard to argue with that. 5 years 40mil

 

It's all good, I respect your opinion. I've never had a problem with Miller speaking his mind, in fact I wish more players would call out their teammates when they need to be called out. The problem I had was, up until Pegula compared him to his daughter after the Pittsburgh game, he never took blame for games that were his fault. He's taken plenty of blame this year and I still think it's because he's trying his hardest to behave for the Olympics.

 

There is no doubt that Miller is one of the most consistent goaltenders in the league. The problem I have is he consistently raises game only on Olympic years. That is what I fear moving forward if he were to sign a long term/high $$ deal. If Miller plays the next 3-4 years the way he is playing now, he's worth the 5/40 you propose. Will he? That remains to be seen. I'll go with 'Fool me once, shame on me.........' ;)

 

Oh, and I agree with the age thing. I think people put way too much emphasis on age of a goaltender. I think Miller can play well into his late 30's, maybe even 40. Watching Tim Thomas down here, it hasn't slowed him down one bit. He's been nursing a groin injury which I think came from not playing at all for an extended period, not his age.

[Huckleberry]

Well by that reasoning

It's all good, I respect your opinion. I've never had a problem with Miller speaking his mind, in fact I wish more players would call out their teammates when they need to be called out. The problem I had was, up until Pegula compared him to his daughter after the Pittsburgh game, he never took blame for games that were his fault. He's taken plenty of blame this year and I still think it's because he's trying his hardest to behave for the Olympics.

 

There is no doubt that Miller is one of the most consistent goaltenders in the league. The problem I have is he consistently raises game only on Olympic years. That is what I fear moving forward if he were to sign a long term/high $$ deal. If Miller plays the next 3-4 years the way he is playing now, he's worth the 5/40 you propose. Will he? That remains to be seen. I'll go with 'Fool me once, shame on me.........' ;)

 

Oh, and I agree with the age thing. I think people put way too much emphasis on age of a goaltender. I think Miller can play well into his late 30's, maybe even 40. Watching Tim Thomas down here, it hasn't slowed him down one bit. He's been nursing a groin injury which I think came from not playing at all for an extended period, not his age.

 

 

Good timing, in 4 yrs there is another olympic year and this team should be ready to contend for the cup :D

[sicknfla]

 

 

How did I know you'd be at the heart of this discussion (with views that are polar opposite to me) :P

 

I think Miller loves this team more than them and that is why he has disdain for it. He hates how bad it is. He does not hate the Buffalo Sabres. I think Vanek said less about the state of the team because he didn't care, he was happy to jump ship and move to a team with the parts in place. His personality also means I doubt he could live with being a weak link on a team. Put a good team in front of him and he will carry you to the finals. His game also relies on positioning and reading the play, so age should not wear him, nor the years condemn.

 

Miller is a damn good goalie who is vocal and demands the best of his teammates, hard to argue with that. 5 years 40mil

 

Some of you guys have short memories. He has had numerous good teams infront of him and I don't see a whole hell of a lot of finals. For that matter I don't see a whole bunch of playoff series wins.

 

He is a good goalie. I am not disputing that. He is not 5/40 good. There comes a time to turn the page. The time has come - for both sides.

[Robviously]

Only difference is, Vanek and Pominville never intended to finish their careers in buffalo i think. I think Miller has more love for this team.

This seems wildly speculative.

[Hoss]

 

 

I know you don't want to believe it, but this team without Miller is going to be a disaster. Be careful what you wish for.

 

This team is already a disaster. I get that they've been playing poorly, but they're still in dead last.

 

 

This seems wildly speculative.

 

I know a thing or two about being wildly speculative, and I agree with you. I don't think we see anything that says this. If anything, switch Pominville and Miller. We've heard indications that Miller wants out, Vanek signed a contract with another team at one point, but Pominville never seemed to have any indications about wanting out.

[Trettioåtta]

Some of you guys have short memories. He has had numerous good teams infront of him and I don't see a whole hell of a lot of finals. For that matter I don't see a whole bunch of playoff series wins.

 

He is a good goalie. I am not disputing that. He is not 5/40 good. There comes a time to turn the page. The time has come - for both sides.

 

He has had two (maybe three) good teams in front of him.

 

06 - We went to our 9th/10th D-men...enough said

07 - The team in front folded it in, it was only thanks to Miller and Drury we got through two teams in the first place

10 - This team was ok, it wasn't fantastic, but in the playoffs they barely showed up. When MAG is your leading scorer something is wrong

[Hoss]

I do think you have to consider that letting Miller go severely increases the chance of landing McDavid or Eichel (save the lottery talk, we get it). While that's obviously a tough way to run a team, it's something to be considered. Great teams bottomed out at the right time. Maybe this is our time. No more mediocre picks and mediocre teams. I want the best.

[Robviously]

Well, you could certainly be right that Miller might not be interested in staying, but the Pommer/Vanek/suffering plan was the prior administration's "blueprint."

 

An older goalie doesn't need to be incompatible with a younger group of skaters. We've seen a number of goalies stay really good into their mid-thirties. A 5-year extension would end when he is 38.

 

To me it comes down to what would be best for the Sabres over the next 3-4 years. I think having Miller during that period would significantly facilitate their transformation into a real team. It's certainly possible that his play falls off for the last couple of years of his deal, but maybe not, and in the meantime I don't think his cost would cramp their cap situation.

What about what would be best for Ryan Miller? Why would he pick Buffalo for his 34+ years? Money shouldn't be much of a factor since he'll get paid no matter where he goes. Other teams give him a much better chance to win the Cup and West Coast teams let him be closer to his wife. Maybe he really, really wants to stay, but I think he'd be excited to try something new at this point.

 

As for the Sabres, would they be better next season with Miller + Enroth versus Enroth + "Mystery goalie"? Almost certainly. But when you're at the bottom of the league, is it really a good time to suddenly get risk averse? If Miller is the difference between us being the 10th worst team in the league versus the worst team in the league, then who cares? We're not winning anything either way. Plus, it's not like Enroth has been bad. Their GAAs are about the same. 2014-2015 is pretty much the perfect year to roll the dice on an unproven goalie given the state of the team.

 

Most importantly, we would not be trading Miller for nothing. We'd be getting an asset (or assets) that might be more valuable than Miller in just a few years (when the team should be good again). I wouldn't trade Girgensons right now to get Gaustad back, for example. It's not like there aren't young players we could get to help us moving forward.

[darksabre]

 

 

This team is already a disaster. I get that they've been playing poorly, but they're still in dead last.

 

 

I wasn't so much referring to their current state as their future state. Yes. They're bad now. But they could be a lot worse next year without Miller in net. Do we really want to see that?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

If the Sabres want to sign him for only 5 years (which makes sense), there is no reason to expect his per season price to be less than Lundy's. That fat Canadian TV deal will boost salaries; Ryan will get his money and I hope Buffalo is the one paying him.

 

That fat Canadian TV deal may be overturned by the CRTC. They have said that they will be taking a very close look.

[LastPommerFan]

I wasn't so much referring to their current state as their future state. Yes. They're bad now. But they could be a lot worse next year without Miller in net. Do we really want to see that?

 

goaltenders are irrelevant in hockey. They do not take shots, nor do they prevent shots against (the only thing that matters for possession stats) so you could playin net for any team in the NHL and it would not affect them at all.

[dEnnis the Menace]

I wasn't so much referring to their current state as their future state. Yes. They're bad now. But they could be a lot worse next year without Miller in net. Do we really want to see that?

 

this plus the fact that young goalies (i.e. the ones we have in our system already) are such an unknown, I'd rather have a sure thing like Miller here to help them reach the next level, rather than throwing them into the fray. I honestly do not believe that Enroth is our future. I believe that with some time, Hackett or one of our other young'ins may be our future, but I don't want to test that next year, and the year after that, and after that, until we get it right again. It'd be much easier on the confidence and my blood pressure :nana: if we kept Miller so we don't do worse next year than we already are.

[Hoss]

 

 

I wasn't so much referring to their current state as their future state. Yes. They're bad now. But they could be a lot worse next year without Miller in net. Do we really want to see that?

 

Most people will say no, but I would be okay with it. The prize is just too big to not want it. Buffalo teams always find a way to push themselves just outside of the very top of the draft. Last year we were just outside of the elite group of prospects. This year we're making a run away from the bottom. Letting Miller walk would likely make us the worst team in hockey which guarantees you a top two pick (McDavid or Eichel). Players around the league want to play with guys like that. You add one and you're automatically putting yourself into any free agent conversation.

 

It's also worth considering our great group of defensive prospects. This should allow us to put somebody cheaper in net and still succeed. Look at LA. Every goalie they put in net looks great because of their defensive system. Obviously we need to find some more forwards to factor in defensively, but we've got a great start.

 

 

 

For the record, I don't think Enroth is starter material. I do think Makarov or Ullmark will be.

[LGR4GM]

 

 

Some of you guys have short memories. He has had numerous good teams infront of him and I don't see a whole hell of a lot of finals. For that matter I don't see a whole bunch of playoff series wins.

 

He is a good goalie. I am not disputing that. He is not 5/40 good. There comes a time to turn the page. The time has come - for both sides.

The last solid team miller had was 07. In 2010 he was the reason they made it to the playoffs, he carried this team.

 

 

 

He has had two (maybe three) good teams in front of him.

 

06 - We went to our 9th/10th D-men...enough said

07 - The team in front folded it in, it was only thanks to Miller and Drury we got through two teams in the first place

10 - This team was ok, it wasn't fantastic, but in the playoffs they barely showed up. When MAG is your leading scorer something is wrong

Yup

 

What about what would be best for Ryan Miller? Why would he pick Buffalo for his 34+ years? Money shouldn't be much of a factor since he'll get paid no matter where he goes. Other teams give him a much better chance to win the Cup and West Coast teams let him be closer to his wife. Maybe he really, really wants to stay, but I think he'd be excited to try something new at this point.

 

As for the Sabres, would they be better next season with Miller + Enroth versus Enroth + "Mystery goalie"? Almost certainly. But when you're at the bottom of the league, is it really a good time to suddenly get risk averse? If Miller is the difference between us being the 10th worst team in the league versus the worst team in the league, then who cares? We're not winning anything either way. Plus, it's not like Enroth has been bad. Their GAAs are about the same. 2014-2015 is pretty much the perfect year to roll the dice on an unproven goalie given the state of the team.

 

Most importantly, we would not be trading Miller for nothing. We'd be getting an asset (or assets) that might be more valuable than Miller in just a few years (when the team should be good again). I wouldn't trade Girgensons right now to get Gaustad back, for example. It's not like there aren't young players we could get to help us moving forward.

You do not use Gaa to compare or evaluate gt you use sv%

Ryan Miller .924

Jhonas Enroth .909

 

I think we need to trade miller because we own him a shot at a cup. I think this team will be worse without him. If he does resign in needs to be prior to the Olympics, once they start it is all in on trading him.

 

We really need a new gm before we can decide anything. The direction of the team is hazy.

[dudacek]

Next season could see an injection of a few quality free agents plus improved youth put us back in the fringes of the playoff race.

Or it could see another high-effort team in the running for Eichel/McDavid.

As far as I am concerned you won't get the same quality of free agents without Ryan Miller.

So, essentially, in deciding whether he wants to be here, he sets the direction for us.

[sicknfla]

Look at the last 10 Cup winners then tell me if we need to pay a goalie who is in the last third of his career 8m a year.

 

 

[JJFIVEOH]

Well by that reasoning

 

 

 

Good timing, in 4 yrs there is another olympic year and this team should be ready to contend for the cup :D

 

Haha, touché. :lol:

[darksabre]

Look at the last 10 Cup winners then tell me if we need to pay a goalie who is in the last third of his career 8m a year.

 

Who else is going to play net for Buffalo over the next 5 years who can give them a chance to win?

[apuszczalowski]

Look at the last 10 Cup winners then tell me if we need to pay a goalie who is in the last third of his career 8m a year.

Ok

2003 - Devils w/ Marty Brodeur over Ducks w/ Giguere

2004 - Lightning w/ Khabibulin over Flames w/ Kipprusoff

2005 - Lockout (No Cup)

2006 - Huricanes w/ Gerber/Ward over Oilers w/ Roloson/Conklin

2007 - Ducks w/ Giguere/Bryzgalov over Sens w/ Emery

2008 - Red Wings w/ Osgood/Hasek over Pens w/ Fleury

2009 - Pens w/ Fleury over Red Wings w/ Osgood

2010 - Blackhawks w/ Niemi over Flyers w/ Emery/Boucher/Leighton

2011 - Bruins w/ Thomas over Canucks w/ Luongo

2012 - Kings w/ Quick over Devils w/ Brodeur

2013 - Blackhawks w/ Crawford/Emery over Bruins w/ Rask

 

I included both the cup winners and losers, and looking over the list, I see a mix of guys who have had huge success in the League (Like Brodeur), have been to the cup finals multiple times (Emery), guys who were selected high in the draft (Fleury) and guys who flamed out (Boucher/Leighton)

 

What I don't see is any pattern that is saying that you don't have to have a good/great goaltender to be a cup contender. 2006 and 2010 might be the only years where the goaltenders in the finals were not impressive guys who went on to great careers (Cam Ward did, but he was the backup to Gerber IIRC, Niemi worked his cup win into a very nice starting job and deal in SJ, and Emery could have had a pretty good career if it wasn't for injuries and to a lesser extent, his attitude)

 

You only suggested going back 10 years, probably because if you go back further, you start getting into cups won by Roy and more by guys like Brodeur, and a few by Osgood who seems to have been a very underrated goaltender

[HopefulFuture]

Makarov will be our future #1, Enroth and Hackett are stopgaps untill he arrives.

Now if Miller wants to sign a 5 year contract i'd give it to him. He has earned it, but don't think he wants to stay.

 

I have to admit, Makarov when on his game looks just amazing. Ullmark is no slouch either.

Nothing personal on Miller, he's a great goalie in his own right, but it is time to move on from the old core, as several others have eluded to.

[K-9]

Some of you guys have short memories. He has had numerous good teams infront of him and I don't see a whole hell of a lot of finals. For that matter I don't see a whole bunch of playoff series wins.

 

He is a good goalie. I am not disputing that. He is not 5/40 good. There comes a time to turn the page. The time has come - for both sides.

 

Numerous good teams around him? 2005/06 and 2006/07. And that's it. No need to rehash what's happened since but suffice to say he hasn't had a team nearly as talented or deep as those teams. Not even close. Especially on the offensive side of things.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[HopefulFuture]

Ok

2003 - Devils w/ Marty Brodeur over Ducks w/ Giguere

2004 - Lightning w/ Khabibulin over Flames w/ Kipprusoff

2005 - Lockout (No Cup)

2006 - Huricanes w/ Gerber/Ward over Oilers w/ Roloson/Conklin

2007 - Ducks w/ Giguere/Bryzgalov over Sens w/ Emery

2008 - Red Wings w/ Osgood/Hasek over Pens w/ Fleury

2009 - Pens w/ Fleury over Red Wings w/ Osgood

2010 - Blackhawks w/ Niemi over Flyers w/ Emery/Boucher/Leighton

2011 - Bruins w/ Thomas over Canucks w/ Luongo

2012 - Kings w/ Quick over Devils w/ Brodeur

2013 - Blackhawks w/ Crawford/Emery over Bruins w/ Rask

 

I included both the cup winners and losers, and looking over the list, I see a mix of guys who have had huge success in the League (Like Brodeur), have been to the cup finals multiple times (Emery), guys who were selected high in the draft (Fleury) and guys who flamed out (Boucher/Leighton)

 

What I don't see is any pattern that is saying that you don't have to have a good/great goaltender to be a cup contender. 2006 and 2010 might be the only years where the goaltenders in the finals were not impressive guys who went on to great careers (Cam Ward did, but he was the backup to Gerber IIRC, Niemi worked his cup win into a very nice starting job and deal in SJ, and Emery could have had a pretty good career if it wasn't for injuries and to a lesser extent, his attitude)

 

You only suggested going back 10 years, probably because if you go back further, you start getting into cups won by Roy and more by guys like Brodeur, and a few by Osgood who seems to have been a very underrated goaltender

 

Impressive list, but those goalies didn't win the Cups, the teams in front of them did however. Look at your list, pre 05 lockout, trap defenses with young elite talent on the front end.

Post 05, it's all about the young elite, clutch front end talent. About the only series I see where goalies made a difference was the Bruins/Canucks series. Other than that series, it was the elite, young scoring talent that made the difference, not the goal tending.