Vanek: ‘I didn’t ask to be traded’

[deluca67]

FWIW, I think Vanek 100% intends to go to UFA, regardless of whether he's traded.

He would be stupid not to. He is an immense talent that should be able to get his price from pretty much any team he wishes to play for. He may very well be the best free agent available in some time.

 

Hossa is twice the player that Vanek is.

I think most would be shocked if they took a closer look at Hossa's numbers.

[waldo]

He would be stupid not to. He is an immense talent that should be able to get his price from pretty much any team he wishes to play for. He may very well be the best free agent available in some time.

 

 

I think most would be shocked if they took a closer look at Hossa's numbers.

 

you are correct on point one..of course.

 

on highlighted pt two;

 

One needs to consider not only his numbers but the teams and line mates Hossa has played with. Given the talent he plays with now. more often than not, he finds himself on the second line, lol. He is 35 years old and still a great player. 16 seasons 1018 games 430+ goals, (126 pp) and 500 pts, in 19000+ minutes. An amazing player. Defensively a far superior player at +138 . Vanek on the other hand is 29, "not even half the player Hossa is" , "gets injured too much", is lazy,past his prime, is paid too much, does not care , is part of the old failed core , gets injured too often, is too streaky and in 585 games has only scored 250 goals (106 pp) ,and accumulated only 238 pts in 9800 minutes.. The only team Vanek has ever played on is the Sabres . I can see why some would say there is no comparison lol .

 

I think we agree

[darksabre]

 

 

and the teams, line mates he has played with. Given the talent he plays now more often than not he finds himself on the second line, lol. He is 35 a great player. 16 seasons 1018 games 430+ goals and 500 pts. amazing player. Vanek on the other hand is horrible , gets injured too much, is lazy, does not care and has only played 585 gamesscored 250 goals and accumulated 238 pts. The only team has played on is the Sabres.

 

You're being sarcastic, right?

[tom webster]

 

 

You're being sarcastic, right?

 

Either sarcastic or very math challenged

[LGR4GM]

Vanek: 0.427gpg / 0.834ppg

 

Hossa: 0.408gpg / 0.878ppg

 

So Thomas Vanek is a more prolific goal scorer. Hossa gets more points. Of course Hossa has had the pleasure of playing with centers much better than Vanek including Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Sharp, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. Thomas Vanek has had Briere, Drury, and then Roy, now he at least has Hodgson who seems to fit really well with him.

[TrueBlueGED]

Vanek: 0.427gpg / 0.834ppg

 

Hossa: 0.408gpg / 0.878ppg

 

So Thomas Vanek is a more prolific goal scorer. Hossa gets more points. Of course Hossa has had the pleasure of playing with centers much better than Vanek including Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Sharp, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. Thomas Vanek has had Briere, Drury, and then Roy, now he at least has Hodgson who seems to fit really well with him.

 

Hossa is also a better possession player. That said, I do think a lot of Sabres fans continue to underrate Vanek. Simply can't ignore the quality of teammates Hossa has had.

[sicknfla]

I think the only place that has a chance of signing him before he tests FA is Minnesota. Any other team will be getting a rental.

 

Not to be Joe Pessimistic but I don't see this ending good in any scenario. He will either be traded for far less then he is worth or we will loose him outright to FA. Hard to think of anything better at this point. I wonder if his decision to resign would have been bolstered if we had a new GM overseeing this rebuild. What makes him think things will change? If I am in his position I am counting down the days.

[Drunkard]

If he won't sign a contract extension then he is asking to be traded. I don't mind him waiting until December/January to see if Rolston can get these guys to turn the corner but we can't keep him past the trade deadline if he hasn't signed an extension before hand.

 

Same goes for Miller but Vanek is definitely the more important of the 2 since he'd bring in the bigger haul in a trade.

[apuszczalowski]

I think the only place that has a chance of signing him before he tests FA is Minnesota. Any other team will be getting a rental.

 

Not to be Joe Pessimistic but I don't see this ending good in any scenario. He will either be traded for far less then he is worth or we will loose him outright to FA. Hard to think of anything better at this point. I wonder if his decision to resign would have been bolstered if we had a new GM overseeing this rebuild. What makes him think things will change? If I am in his position I am counting down the days.

I doubt it, unless the new GM is promising a short one season rebuild

 

Vaneks issue seems to be that he has been here a long time and is getting up there in age where he is going to be reaching his peak and would like to be a part of a cup contending team. He doesn't seem to want to be a part of a multi year rebuild. From what he has said, it sounds like he would rather stay if the conditions were right and this team will be contending really soon, and won't make a decision about his future in Buffalo until this season plays out and he sees the direction they are headed in. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will hold out or demand a trade, he seems like a very laid back type guy who will wait things out and see how things go. If this team still looks like its a few years away from cup contention, he will move on as a FA (Unless Buffalo moves him out first)

 

I think that during the season/at the deadline, Miller may actually have more trade value to some teams then Vanek. How many times can you say that a team was only one forward away, and managed to get one forward who came in and changed everything for the new team at the deadline? A goalie can be more of a game changer and have a bigger impact for a team then one forward typically can. The market may be smaller for Miller then Vanek, but I think that Miller may be more valuable to a contender then Vanek can be.

[nfreeman]

If he won't sign a contract extension then he is asking to be traded.

 

Exactly.

 

FWIW: I think posters here seem to be discounting the possibility that Vanek has never particularly wanted to be in Buffalo and has just been diplomatic about it.

 

Forget the words -- look at the actions: he took the first opportunity he had to bail when he signed the offer sheet with Edmonton. Now it's his second opportunity and he's refusing to sign a contract extension, despite TP publicly stating that he wants to keep Vanek (and Daddy Warbucks presumably is prepared to spend whatever it takes to do so).

 

Maybe he wants warm weather, maybe it's low taxes, maybe it's the club scene, maybe who knows? But nothing he's actually done indicates that he's ever wanted to be here.

[freester]

Hossa is also a better possession player. That said, I do think a lot of Sabres fans continue to underrate Vanek. Simply can't ignore the quality of teammates Hossa has had.

You seem to ignore the years Hossa played in Atlanta and Ottawa with little help around him. This was the first 10 years of his career. Hossa is a much better all around player even though I love Vanek.

[...]

 

 

Exactly.

 

FWIW: I think posters here seem to be discounting the possibility that Vanek has never particularly wanted to be in Buffalo and has just been diplomatic about it.

 

Forget the words -- look at the actions: he took the first opportunity he had to bail when he signed the offer sheet with Edmonton. Now it's his second opportunity and he's refusing to sign a contract extension, despite TP publicly stating that he wants to keep Vanek (and Daddy Warbucks presumably is prepared to spend whatever it takes to do so).

 

Maybe he wants warm weather, maybe it's low taxes, maybe it's the club scene, maybe who knows? But nothing he's actually done indicates that he's ever wanted to be here.

 

Perhaps, but he was really young at the time he signed that contract (young and naïve, you know), and the Sabres WERE good then. I think it's probably more accurate to say that each season since he signed that contract, the more he has been looking forward to it expiring.

 

 

 

[TrueBlueGED]

You seem to ignore the years Hossa played in Atlanta and Ottawa with little help around him. This was the first 10 years of his career. Hossa is a much better all around player even though I love Vanek.

 

Ottawa and Atlanta were hardly bottom feeders for those years. Seriously, go back and check the standings.

[nfreeman]

Ottawa and Atlanta were hardly bottom feeders for those years. Seriously, go back and check the standings.

 

Ottawa wasn't, but Atlanta was -- they missed the playoffs 2 out of his 3 years there (and got swept in the 1st round in the other year -- which btw was the only playoff appearance in Thrashers history).

[TrueBlueGED]

Ottawa wasn't, but Atlanta was -- they missed the playoffs 2 out of his 3 years there (and got swept in the 1st round in the other year -- which btw was the only playoff appearance in Thrashers history).

 

But they were still a bubble team, not a total bottom feeder. I guess my point is that for most of his career, Hossa has been on better teams than Vanek, and even when those teams weren't great they were still on par with the worst Vanek has had.

[nfreeman]

But they were still a bubble team, not a total bottom feeder. I guess my point is that for most of his career, Hossa has been on better teams than Vanek, and even when those teams weren't great they were still on par with the worst Vanek has had.

 

That's fair.

 

Having said that -- do you not think Hossa is a better player?

[apuszczalowski]

Exactly.

 

FWIW: I think posters here seem to be discounting the possibility that Vanek has never particularly wanted to be in Buffalo and has just been diplomatic about it.

 

Forget the words -- look at the actions: he took the first opportunity he had to bail when he signed the offer sheet with Edmonton. Now it's his second opportunity and he's refusing to sign a contract extension, despite TP publicly stating that he wants to keep Vanek (and Daddy Warbucks presumably is prepared to spend whatever it takes to do so).

 

Maybe he wants warm weather, maybe it's low taxes, maybe it's the club scene, maybe who knows? But nothing he's actually done indicates that he's ever wanted to be here.

He was young and handed a huge offer that was more then Buffalo was offering him, why wouldn't he sign it?

The Sabres only made a qualifying offer to him then to keep his RFA rights, I don't remember the Sabres making him similar offers to Edmonton that he was rejecting at that time.

 

As for know, how can you blame him? He is in his 30s now and the GM has announced a rebuild and said there can be tough times ahead. He will be wasting a few years of his prime to wait for some prospect to develop and hopefully make them into cup contenders? He has a very important choice to make, stay loyal to the Sabres and just sign whatever they offer and maybe be on a cup contender in a few years, or wait to become a UFA and sign with a team that already is one or much closer to being one.

[nfreeman]

He was young and handed a huge offer that was more then Buffalo was offering him, why wouldn't he sign it?

The Sabres only made a qualifying offer to him then to keep his RFA rights, I don't remember the Sabres making him similar offers to Edmonton that he was rejecting at that time.

 

As for know, how can you blame him? He is in his 30s now and the GM has announced a rebuild and said there can be tough times ahead. He will be wasting a few years of his prime to wait for some prospect to develop and hopefully make them into cup contenders? He has a very important choice to make, stay loyal to the Sabres and just sign whatever they offer and maybe be on a cup contender in a few years, or wait to become a UFA and sign with a team that already is one or much closer to being one.

 

Everything you and Sizzle (and others here, to be sure) are saying is plausible. I'm just saying that it's also quite plausible -- and is in fact consistent with his actions -- that he has never been particularly happy here and is going to bolt the first chance he gets.

 

As far as whether he can be blamed -- I kinda think some loyalty to the fans and franchise that has paid him over $50MM is in order. This isn't a Drury/Briere situation, where he's being lowballed and/or jerked around. Nor, despite what some may feel, is this a Mickey Mouse situation that anyone would want to GTFO of. It's a rebuilding situation, but it's a team with some good young talent, good goaltending (at least for now), deep-pocketed and committed ownership, great facilities and passionate fans who fill up the building.

 

(NB I'm assuming -- and this is admittedly a big assumption-- that TP is willing to give him as much as he'd get anywhere else.)

[TrueBlueGED]

That's fair.

 

Having said that -- do you not think Hossa is a better player?

 

I do think Hossa is the better player, I just think the difference is smaller than is being portrayed here (I'd also rather have Vanek for the next 7 years than Hossa due to age, but that's a different conversation). Allow me to explain.

 

Hossa is unquestionably the superior possession player and two-way player. However, I think Vanek is better offensively, and I really don't think it's that close. Vanek's offensive peak (which I'll say is pure point production) was 84 points in 06-07; Hossa's was 100 in that same year. In that year, Vanek averaged 16:47 of ice time per game, and Hossa averaged 21:47; they both played a full 82 games. So Vanek's scoring rate was significantly higher.

 

Often times I hammer home that even strength is the best way to measure player ability, so we can take a look at that. Vanek averaged 12:56 of ES time per game that year, and accumulated 73.8% of his offense during ES (62 points)...so despite Vanek having a reputation as a PP specialist, that's really not the case. Hossa, on the other hand, averaged 14:16 of ES time and accumulated 52% (52 points) at ES. So in one of the fluky rule years, Hossa actually benefited much more from the increased PP time than Vanek.

 

I know I'm using one year for illustrative purposes, but these trends hold for their career (I did a side by side, just didn't want to type it all out). Vanek gets less ice time and makes more out of it offensively at even strength and overall. Additionally, Vanek's career shooting percentage is 2.5 points higher, suggesting more pure shooting talent. There's also a lot of evidence suggesting that quality of teammates is the real driver of player success once talent is accounted for (zone starts, competition, all that stuff I talk about a lot is secondary to teammate quality if you buy the research by Dave Johnson). Taking their careers as a whole, Hossa has had the better slate of teammates. As a result, my argument is that if Vanek were on a team the caliber of that 05-07 Sabres team (also consider he was still a very young player and IMO has matured and improved since then), this conversation would be much different. I think we'd be talking about if we'd rather have a guy who will create more offense or play a more complete game. Viewed from that lense, the Vanek vs. Hossa debate isn't nearly as clear cut.

[LGR4GM]

Imagine Vanek with Hogdson 1 more year... a full year... this year... good things ppl good things.

[beerme1]

Does anyone know the actual trade deadline date this season. I can't seem to find it and am guessing King Gary just hasn't even thought about it yet.

[HopefulFuture]

Imagine Vanek with Hogdson 1 more year... a full year... this year... good things ppl good things.

 

I don't question the chemistry there, just the intensity of it. I don't believe it's an over the top type of chemistry. When Pommers was on the RW you at least had a 60+ point guy over there, who is to fill that vacancy now and elevate the 1st lines overall game? I don't see any player currently doing so, maybe Armia, but other than him the choices on RW are slim to none IMHO.

[LGR4GM]

I don't question the chemistry there, just the intensity of it. I don't believe it's an over the top type of chemistry. When Pommers was on the RW you at least had a 60+ point guy over there, who is to fill that vacancy now and elevate the 1st lines overall game? I don't see any player currently doing so, maybe Armia, but other than him the choices on RW are slim to none IMHO.

I am actually curious to see if they switch Vanek to RW and put one of their many vet LW's on the other side.

 

Barring that I think we could also see Tropp paired with Vanek again although Tropp's current level is hard to judge after last years injury. That leaves us Flynn and Stafford. Flynn I personally really like but it will be interesting to see him against tougher opposition and Stafford and Vanek have no chemistry and I doubt they skate together.

[dudacek]

I hadn't really considered Flynn in the slot, but it could happen. His game is a lot like Pominville's.

I'm guilty of minimizing his chances because of his (lack of) pedigree, but guys like that do emerge around the league every year.

[nfreeman]

I do think Hossa is the better player, I just think the difference is smaller than is being portrayed here (I'd also rather have Vanek for the next 7 years than Hossa due to age, but that's a different conversation). Allow me to explain.

 

Hossa is unquestionably the superior possession player and two-way player. However, I think Vanek is better offensively, and I really don't think it's that close. Vanek's offensive peak (which I'll say is pure point production) was 84 points in 06-07; Hossa's was 100 in that same year. In that year, Vanek averaged 16:47 of ice time per game, and Hossa averaged 21:47; they both played a full 82 games. So Vanek's scoring rate was significantly higher.

 

Often times I hammer home that even strength is the best way to measure player ability, so we can take a look at that. Vanek averaged 12:56 of ES time per game that year, and accumulated 73.8% of his offense during ES (62 points)...so despite Vanek having a reputation as a PP specialist, that's really not the case. Hossa, on the other hand, averaged 14:16 of ES time and accumulated 52% (52 points) at ES. So in one of the fluky rule years, Hossa actually benefited much more from the increased PP time than Vanek.

 

I know I'm using one year for illustrative purposes, but these trends hold for their career (I did a side by side, just didn't want to type it all out). Vanek gets less ice time and makes more out of it offensively at even strength and overall. Additionally, Vanek's career shooting percentage is 2.5 points higher, suggesting more pure shooting talent. There's also a lot of evidence suggesting that quality of teammates is the real driver of player success once talent is accounted for (zone starts, competition, all that stuff I talk about a lot is secondary to teammate quality if you buy the research by Dave Johnson). Taking their careers as a whole, Hossa has had the better slate of teammates. As a result, my argument is that if Vanek were on a team the caliber of that 05-07 Sabres team (also consider he was still a very young player and IMO has matured and improved since then), this conversation would be much different. I think we'd be talking about if we'd rather have a guy who will create more offense or play a more complete game. Viewed from that lense, the Vanek vs. Hossa debate isn't nearly as clear cut.

 

Very good post. A few points in response:

 

- There is no doubt that Hossa has benefited from having much better teammates than Vanek has had, at least since Black Sunday.

 

- I can also go along with Vanek being a better shooter -- the shooting % is pretty persuasive there.

 

- However, I don't think it's plausible to say that Vanek is the better offensive player and it's not that close. Vanek has had 2 seasons of 70+ points in his career and 1 of 80+, with a high of 84. Hossa has had 7 of 70+ and 4 of 80+, with a high of 100.

 

- I also think the points-per-minute argument isn't persuasive -- we both agree that Hossa is the better 2-way player. As such, he's going to be out there in many more defensive situations than Vanek is.

 

- It's also worth noting that Hossa has gotten more ice time than Vanek because he's earned it by being a better player. (And for those who would blame Lindy for this -- Vanek's ice time actually decreased last year under Rolston.)

 

- Vanek is 29, while Hossa is 34 (interestingly, their birthdays are 1 week apart) -- so you are right about preferring Vanek for the next 7 years. However: given your choice, would you rather sign Hossa for 4 years, $28MM, or Vanek for 8 years, $64MM?

 

Does anyone know the actual trade deadline date this season. I can't seem to find it and am guessing King Gary just hasn't even thought about it yet.

 

Really? You think that's the reason you can't find it?

 

Imagine Vanek with Hogdson 1 more year... a full year... this year... good things ppl good things.

 

Pretty weak fantasy -- not exactly Gretzky and Kurri.