So What Really Does Stop This Team From being Good

[JJFIVEOH]

Please provide the quote for where I mention anything about Enroth's losing streak?

 

It was a general statement, nobody in particular was in mind. Although, I don't see you defending it.

[MattPie]

No offense but this is like two nerds having a slap fight in a phone booth.

 

Heh, nice.

 

FWIW, there's a reason that in just about any sport rankings by position almost always have some sort of "minimum x passes, shots, goals, games, etc.". Otherwise the kid that gets called up one game vs. the Sabres (or some other team that can't score) and puts up a goose-egg or 1 goal doesn't sit at the top of the list with "1 GP 1.000 SV 0 GAA".

 

As for Enroth's losing streak: that's the whole point. Because he hasn't played that many games, we don't know which Enroth is the real Enroth.

[nfreeman]

Who had a better save percentage? Who had a better GAA?

 

Who had more wins?

 

Which stat is most important in determining whether the Sabres make the playoffs: wins, GAA, or SV%?

[JJFIVEOH]

Enroth finished off 2011 with an 0-10 record, yet managed to have a .910 save percentage during that span. You're going to be hard pressed to find any goaltender put together ANY stretch of 10 games without a win with a .910 save percentage. Yet he still managed a better save percentage than Miller that year. Miller finished the year with a .916 save percentage, Enroth had a .910 save percentage during a 10 game losing streak. Hmmm........

 

Who had more wins?

 

Which stat is most important in determining whether the Sabres make the playoffs: wins, GAA, or SV%?

 

Team wins, not goaltender wins. Put Miller behind the same team that Enroth did during his 10 game losing streak and he won't win a game either.

 

By the way, last year they had identical win percentages.

[MattPie]

Enroth finished off 2011 with an 0-10 record, yet managed to have a .910 save percentage during that span. You're going to be hard pressed to find any goaltender put together ANY stretch of 10 games without a win with a .910 save percentage. Yet he still managed a better save percentage than Miller that year. Miller finished the year with a .916 save percentage, Enroth had a .910 save percentage during a 10 game losing streak. Hmmm........

 

I don't see how wins relates to save percentage if the SV% is roughly the same, other than subtle effects. Everybody has their pet stat that they judge G by. I tend to go with SV%, since Wins largely out of the goaltender's hands as long as he performs reasonably. GAA depends on the skaters to limit shots and play well in the defensive zone, and occaisionally keep the puck at the other end of the ice. SV% isn't ideal, since a good team that keeps shooters to the outsides and low-chance shots helps the goaltender.

 

I tend to put stock in SV%, but that's my own cognitive bias from watching Hasek face 35-40 shots/game for years and comparing better to Roy and Brodeur in these types of conversations.

[SwampD]

^{Don't coaches usually play the backup against teams he is more likely to get a win against? The starter doesn't get that luxury.}

[MattPie]

^{Don't coaches usually play the backup against teams he is more likely to get a win against? The starter doesn't get that luxury.}

 

Depends. On a back to back against a really good team, the coach may put the starter in against the weaker team as that gives them a really good chance to win, and hope for some luck that the backup plays well against the better team and steals a win.

[drnkirishone]

 

 

Whether he started 3 games or 300. The numbers showed he performed better. Whether he can keep performing up to those standards is another discussion. The fact remains that in the games that Enroth played in, overall he performed better, and did so in consecutive seasons.

i went to the canadian casino 3 times and hit jackpots on machines twice. I have gone to seneca casino 12 times and never hit a jackpot. So clearly the canadian machines payout jackpots 66% compared to 0% the seneca......

[SwampD]

Depends. On a back to back against a really good team, the coach may put the starter in against the weaker team as that gives them a really good chance to win, and hope for some luck that the backup plays well against the better team and steals a win.

I know I've heard of this happening. I'm just not sure it actually ever happens.

[JJFIVEOH]

I don't see how wins relates to save percentage if the SV% is roughly the same, other than subtle effects. Everybody has their pet stat that they judge G by. I tend to go with SV%, since Wins largely out of the goaltender's hands as long as he performs reasonably. GAA depends on the skaters to limit shots and play well in the defensive zone, and occaisionally keep the puck at the other end of the ice. SV% isn't ideal, since a good team that keeps shooters to the outsides and low-chance shots helps the goaltender.

 

I tend to put stock in SV%, but that's my own cognitive bias from watching Hasek face 35-40 shots/game for years and comparing better to Roy and Brodeur in these types of conversations.

 

I was just using it in defense of Enroth for those who love to use his losing streak as a means to prove he's not NHL worthy. It doesn't relate to wins or losses, some seem to think his performance translated into losses when that simply isn't the case. You've actually helped to prove my point. ;)

[Sabre Dance]

So, exactly how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

[TrueBlueGED]

Who had more wins?

 

Which stat is most important in determining whether the Sabres make the playoffs: wins, GAA, or SV%?

 

SV%. Would you rather have Corey Crawford or Ryan Miller? Certainly SV% can be inflated/deflated by the team, but wins is the ultimate team stat and a pretty bad way to judge goaltenders IMO.

[JJFIVEOH]

i went to the canadian casino 3 times and hit jackpots on machines twice. I have gone to seneca casino 12 times and never hit a jackpot. So clearly the canadian machines payout jackpots 66% compared to 0% the seneca......

 

Nope, but it does prove that the Canadian casino was better those times that you went there. Kinda like Enroth was better in the games he played. That was the original point.

[SwampD]

Nope, but it does prove that the Canadian casino was better those times that you went there. Kinda like Enroth was better in the games he played. That was the original point.

But we don't know how Miller would have done in the games that Enroth played.

[TrueBlueGED]

 

But we don't know how Miller would have done in the games that Enroth played.

 

We don't, but JJ does: Miller wouldn't have gotten a win either.

[JJFIVEOH]

But we don't know how Miller would have done in the games that Enroth played.

 

That really has nothing to do with the point. Miller played these games, Enroth played these games. These were Miller's numbers, these were Enroth's numbers. Enroth's were better. It's not that difficult a concept.

 

The discussion about whether or not Enroth would have been better or worse in the long run is a different story.

[nfreeman]

Enroth finished off 2011 with an 0-10 record, yet managed to have a .910 save percentage during that span. You're going to be hard pressed to find any goaltender put together ANY stretch of 10 games without a win with a .910 save percentage. Yet he still managed a better save percentage than Miller that year. Miller finished the year with a .916 save percentage, Enroth had a .910 save percentage during a 10 game losing streak. Hmmm........

 

Team wins, not goaltender wins. Put Miller behind the same team that Enroth did during his 10 game losing streak and he won't win a game either.

 

By the way, last year they had identical win percentages.

 

And yet 2 professional hockey coaches have chosen repeatedly to start Miller over Enroth. I wonder why that is?

 

I don't see how wins relates to save percentage if the SV% is roughly the same, other than subtle effects. Everybody has their pet stat that they judge G by. I tend to go with SV%, since Wins largely out of the goaltender's hands as long as he performs reasonably. GAA depends on the skaters to limit shots and play well in the defensive zone, and occaisionally keep the puck at the other end of the ice. SV% isn't ideal, since a good team that keeps shooters to the outsides and low-chance shots helps the goaltender.

 

I tend to put stock in SV%, but that's my own cognitive bias from watching Hasek face 35-40 shots/game for years and comparing better to Roy and Brodeur in these types of conversations.

SV%. Would you rather have Corey Crawford or Ryan Miller? Certainly SV% can be inflated/deflated by the team, but wins is the ultimate team stat and a pretty bad way to judge goaltenders IMO.

 

I agree that in the abstract SV% ought to be the key stat, but it omits the (IMHO) crucial aspect that Lindy referred to as "making key saves at key times." In other words -- letting one in at the wrong time hurts a team's chances of winning more than letting one in at a different point in the game. This was why Marty never made it as a #1 for the Sabres despite multiple opportunities.

 

(BTW it sounds like Marty left the Rangers' camp today "for personal reasons" and the Rangers are looking for a new #2 -- hope everything is OK.)

[JJFIVEOH]

And yet 2 professional hockey coaches have chosen repeatedly to start Miller over Enroth. I wonder why that is?

 

 

Those same coaches also start Stafford. What's your point? How many times have they made the playoffs the last six years?

[TrueBlueGED]

Those same coaches also start Stafford. What's your point? How many times have they made the playoffs the last six years?

 

Stafford should be started, and he should be in the top-6. Yea, I said it!

 

And yet 2 professional hockey coaches have chosen repeatedly to start Miller over Enroth. I wonder why that is?

 

 

 

 

I agree that in the abstract SV% ought to be the key stat, but it omits the (IMHO) crucial aspect that Lindy referred to as "making key saves at key times." In other words -- letting one in at the wrong time hurts a team's chances of winning more than letting one in at a different point in the game. This was why Marty never made it as a #1 for the Sabres despite multiple opportunities.

 

(BTW it sounds like Marty left the Rangers' camp today "for personal reasons" and the Rangers are looking for a new #2 -- hope everything is OK.)

 

I know what you're getting at, I just don't see letting 2 goals in during the first period to be appreciably better than 2 goals in the third period. I suspect we won't see eye to eye on this, as it's basically the same back and forth we've had about Vanek's scoring :)

[darksabre]

So, exactly how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

 

You'll have to ask that guy who understands statistics.

[Weave]

I was just using it in defense of Enroth for those who love to use his losing streak as a means to prove he's not NHL worthy. It doesn't relate to wins or losses, some seem to think his performance translated into losses when that simply isn't the case. You've actually helped to prove my point. ;)

 

You keep bringing this up but I'm not sure any of these folks are actually here in the conversation. How about putting that straw man away until someone who actually feels that way shows up and tries to discuss it? You are countering a point that noone made in months.

 

That really has nothing to do with the point. Miller played these games, Enroth played these games. These were Miller's numbers, these were Enroth's numbers. Enroth's were better. It's not that difficult a concept.

 

The discussion about whether or not Enroth would have been better or worse in the long run is a different story.

 

The discussion about whether or not Enroth would have / will be better in the long run is the only discussion worth having. Limiting the discussion to anecdotal sample sizes introduces too much randomness to be worth putting any weight into.

[JJFIVEOH]

OK

[SwampD]

Well, he DID lose 13 games in a row. And considering he started out 4-0-1 last year mean he finished with 4 straight losses. So, those four games he won were really the anomaly.

 

/trolling

[Ross Rhea]

Well, he DID lose 13 games in a row. And considering he started out 4-0-1 last year mean he finished with 4 straight losses. So, those four games he won were really the anomaly.

 

/trolling

 

And yet in all those loses he still managed to have a higher sv% than Miller. Hmm....

[SwampD]

And yet in all those loses he still managed to have a higher sv% than Miller. Hmm....

Stats are for losers.