Robviously Posted July 8, 2013 Report Posted July 8, 2013 Can we just rename the "Russian factor" to the "xenophobia factor", or is that being too harsh? Is it xenophobia if it's true?
TrueBlueGED Posted July 8, 2013 Report Posted July 8, 2013 Is it xenophobia if it's true? No. But there's no evidence it is true. For every anecdote about a "lazy" or "enigmatic" Russian, you can find an example of a "lazy" or "enigmatic" North American player, but the stereotype just doesn't stick. Until I see some sort of systematic evidence that Russians carry more risk than any other nationality, I'm going to go with xenophobia.
.55. Posted July 8, 2013 Report Posted July 8, 2013 Can we just rename the "Russian factor" to the "xenophobia factor", or is that being too harsh? I don't know if it's harsh, but I don't think it's right. I like Russians. I think Don Cherry is an idiot. All top prospects are scrutinized with a fine comb and if a player has any risks that a similarly talented player lacks (whether it is a character concern, low intelligence, poor work ethic) he gets bumped down the list. Burmistrov isn't doing his part to dispell "Russian Factor" as a myth--he wanted to get traded, wasn't, and then signed overseas.Kuznetsov dropped further than Nichushkin, despite his immense talent, and the Caps can't feel entirely comfortable that he'll come over and stay. Jumping overseas is one bargaining chip that domestic players do not have the history of using. We'll have to see over the next couple years, though, if it's anti-Russian bias, or whether it's just the allure of the Kontinental Hockey League in general. The money and the familiar culture certainly work in its favor. The league is becoming more continental, adding Finland's Jokerit for 2014-2015, and it has teams in Czech Republic and Slovakia as well. If more SM-liiga teams make the jump (spitballing completely, I have no idea if that's likely) maybe it'll be a Finn-Russian bias?
TrueBlueGED Posted July 8, 2013 Report Posted July 8, 2013 I don't know if it's harsh, but I don't think it's right. I like Russians. I think Don Cherry is an idiot. All top prospects are scrutinized with a fine comb and if a player has any risks that a similarly talented player lacks (whether it is a character concern, low intelligence, poor work ethic) he gets bumped down the list. Burmistrov isn't doing his part to dispell "Russian Factor" as a myth--he wanted to get traded, wasn't, and then signed overseas.Kuznetsov dropped further than Nichushkin, despite his immense talent, and the Caps can't feel entirely comfortable that he'll come over and stay. Jumping overseas is one bargaining chip that domestic players do not have the history of using. We'll have to see over the next couple years, though, if it's anti-Russian bias, or whether it's just the allure of the Kontinental Hockey League in general. The money and the familiar culture certainly work in its favor. The league is becoming more continental, adding Finland's Jokerit for 2014-2015, and it has teams in Czech Republic and Slovakia as well. If more SM-liiga teams make the jump (spitballing completely, I have no idea if that's likely) maybe it'll be a Finn-Russian bias? Burmistrov didn't go over to the KHL because it had some allure, it's because he hated the way Winnipeg was using him and that they didn't trade him. Malkin turned down $15 million tax-free dollars to stay in the NHL. Bobrovsky, hardly a superstar player, turned down $10 million tax-free dollars per year to stay in the NHL. Kuznetsov was drafted in 2010 and has sworn time and again he's coming over after the Olympics next year...so he'll be in the NHL 4 years after being drafted. That's not much different from plenty of other North American prospects who take a number of years to crack the league. Again, there is absolutely zero systematic evidence that this is a problem, and for every anecdote there's another anecdote to disprove it or apply it equally to NA players.
SwampD Posted July 8, 2013 Report Posted July 8, 2013 I'm not a draft fan, I'm a hockey fan. This draft stuff is out of my depth. I don't track the available talent until I see them playing with the big club. I like to watch hockey games; I don't know enough about prospects and drafts to pass judgment. I just wanna see some hockey. Yep. Me too. This guy is head over heels about the sabres draft...thinks its one of the most complete drafts by a team in over a decade. Means nothing, but refreshing to hear http://thehockeywrit...rve-division-c/ I'm really getting tired of my teams only winning in the off-season.
.55. Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Burmistrov didn't go over to the KHL because it had some allure, it's because he hated the way Winnipeg was using him and that they didn't trade him. Malkin turned down $15 million tax-free dollars to stay in the NHL. Bobrovsky, hardly a superstar player, turned down $10 million tax-free dollars per year to stay in the NHL. Kuznetsov was drafted in 2010 and has sworn time and again he's coming over after the Olympics next year...so he'll be in the NHL 4 years after being drafted. That's not much different from plenty of other North American prospects who take a number of years to crack the league. Again, there is absolutely zero systematic evidence that this is a problem, and for every anecdote there's another anecdote to disprove it or apply it equally to NA players. Right, Burmistrov went back to the KHL because he wasn't playing on a team he liked. That is a strong-armed bargaining technique that makes NHL teams nervous. It's another cherry-picked example, but Leo Komarov, a Finn of Russian descent, is a former KHL player who pulled the same stunt. Of course, domestic kids get superdrunk and drive as teletubbies. Devine's post-draft interview mentions being scared off by Nichushkin's plan to return to the KHL if he didn't make the NHL this year. Would you say that is due to anti-Russian xenophobia, or is it merely anti-KHL risk mitigation? He was absolutely thrilled to draft a Russian with no KHL connections and a longer development arc at 16 and considering taking him at 8. A scout would sell his left foot to bring the next Malkin over (whether he's Russian or North Korean) but teams have determined the KHL is a large enough financial force to bump players with KHL ties down their draft boards. (If we're talking about Russian Factor as a bias against the style, work ethic, and passion of a Russian player, well that's a completely different thing and I'm wasting our time by going down the road I did.)
Robviously Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 No. But there's no evidence it is true. For every anecdote about a "lazy" or "enigmatic" Russian, you can find an example of a "lazy" or "enigmatic" North American player, but the stereotype just doesn't stick. Until I see some sort of systematic evidence that Russians carry more risk than any other nationality, I'm going to go with xenophobia. The KHL definitely exists. So that's one reason to think about Russian players differently. Second, I'm not sure what "systemic evidence" you would want or how you could go about obtaining it. In the meantime, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that it can be an issue. We basically ask these guys to play in the best league in the world and deal with culture shock at the same time. Why wouldn't it be harder for them to succeed?
LastPommerFan Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Burmistrov didn't go over to the KHL because it had some allure, it's because he hated the way Winnipeg was using him and that they didn't trade him. Malkin turned down $15 million tax-free dollars to stay in the NHL. Bobrovsky, hardly a superstar player, turned down $10 million tax-free dollars per year to stay in the NHL. Kuznetsov was drafted in 2010 and has sworn time and again he's coming over after the Olympics next year...so he'll be in the NHL 4 years after being drafted. That's not much different from plenty of other North American prospects who take a number of years to crack the league. Again, there is absolutely zero systematic evidence that this is a problem, and for every anecdote there's another anecdote to disprove it or apply it equally to NA players. I think the russian talent pool is simply drying up. The generation being drafted now didn't have the benefit of training in the Soviet Machine. As a result, there are simply fewer top talent Russians. Between Malkin 2004 and Yakopov 2012 there were no russians taken in the top 5. notably, there weren't any late 1st russian bargains taken during that time either. It's not like some team drafting 20th is getting the next great winger because they're willing to draft russians.
bunomatic Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Yep. Me too. I'm really getting tired of my teams only winning in the off-season. Yup . This all sounds so familiar. But will it translate into success ?
IKnowPhysics Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 As a result, there are simply fewer top talent Russians. Between Malkin 2004 and Yakopov 2012. Effect of a well paid KHL?
TrueBlueGED Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Right, Burmistrov went back to the KHL because he wasn't playing on a team he liked. That is a strong-armed bargaining technique that makes NHL teams nervous. It's another cherry-picked example, but Leo Komarov, a Finn of Russian descent, is a former KHL player who pulled the same stunt. Of course, domestic kids get superdrunk and drive as teletubbies. Devine's post-draft interview mentions being scared off by Nichushkin's plan to return to the KHL if he didn't make the NHL this year. Would you say that is due to anti-Russian xenophobia, or is it merely anti-KHL risk mitigation? He was absolutely thrilled to draft a Russian with no KHL connections and a longer development arc at 16 and considering taking him at 8. A scout would sell his left foot to bring the next Malkin over (whether he's Russian or North Korean) but teams have determined the KHL is a large enough financial force to bump players with KHL ties down their draft boards. (If we're talking about Russian Factor as a bias against the style, work ethic, and passion of a Russian player, well that's a completely different thing and I'm wasting our time by going down the road I did.) In specific instances you have to do your homework. I guess what I'm referring to is there seems to be a general "oh he's Russian, he's a risk" stereotype out there, which really has no foundation other than anecdotes. Was the KHL a bigger than average risk with Nichushkin? I don't know, but I do know he got out of a 2 year KHL contract before the draft and signed his NHL ELC almost immediately. Doesn't scream KHL risk to me. The KHL definitely exists. So that's one reason to think about Russian players differently. Second, I'm not sure what "systemic evidence" you would want or how you could go about obtaining it. In the meantime, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that it can be an issue. We basically ask these guys to play in the best league in the world and deal with culture shock at the same time. Why wouldn't it be harder for them to succeed? I'd like some data showing that Russian players who NHL teams want are somehow significantly likely to actively choose the KHL over the NHL. Going to the NHL first and "flunking out" really doesn't count IMO. I think a properly designed study would likely show the overwhelming majority of players desired by NHL teams end up in the NHL, while a trivial minority choose the KHL. Again, being relegated to the KHL because no NHL team wants you isn't indicative of any special risk with Russians. The mere existence of the KHL isn't enough to make me worry a whole lot...I need to see legit NHL players choosing to play at home first. This doesn't seem to be happening. Effect of a well paid KHL? Do you think the lack of Canadian goaltenders is because of Euros in the junior ranks? It's really the same kind of argument. I think the simpler explanation is that Russia is just going through a drought of high-end talent. Seriously, how many KHL players would teams be tripping over themselves to get over to North America?
Trettioåtta Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 I personally find the Russian/KHL thing especially insulting to players like Grigo and Zadorov, who left their home when they were 16 to come to America and play and prove their loyalty to NA hockey. But their motives are still questioned
MattPie Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 I personally find the Russian/KHL thing especially insulting to players like Grigo and Zadorov, who left their home when they were 16 to come to America and play and prove their loyalty to NA hockey. But their motives are still questioned Full agreement here, although I don't hear many people questioning those two. We're questioning the guy that said he'd only play in North America if it were in the NHL.
TrueBlueGED Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Full agreement here, although I don't hear many people questioning those two. We're questioning the guy that said he'd only play in North America if it were in the NHL. There were absolutely KHL concerns with Grigs before he was drafted.
LabattBlue Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 I personally find the Russian/KHL thing especially insulting to players like Grigo and Zadorov, who left their home when they were 16 to come to America and play and prove their loyalty to NA hockey. But their motives are still questioned Burmistrov also came over at 18 to play in the OHL. Where is he playing come October? I don't know why, but I continue to have a bad feeling that Grigs struggles the next two years, and then bolts to the KHL much like another struggling Russian who I mentioned two sentences ago. ;) PS Not to nitpik but Grigs and Zadorov were both 17 when starting their first seasons in Canadian Juniors.
Trettioåtta Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Burmistrov also came over at 18 to play in the OHL. Where is he playing come October? I don't know why, but I continue to have a bad feeling that Grigs struggles the next two years, and then bolts to the KHL much like another struggling Russian who I mentioned two sentences ago. ;) PS Not to nitpik but Grigs and Zadorov were both 17 when starting their first seasons in Canadian Juniors. I have no problem with what Burmistrov did. He asked for a trade ages ago and was generally mishandled by the team, so went to okay for a team he would rather play for. If he had signed with another NHL team te offer would have been matched. The thing is that only Russian players are willing to go to Russia. The KHL teams probably send out offers to most free agents, but most players don't want I leave NA. If a player is so miserable playing for your team e has asked to be traded multiple times, either chane how you use him or trade him Burmistrov is 23 I think, hardly like me bolted to the KHL first chance he got. The Winn GM just played his hand all wrong
Trettioåtta Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Oh and another thing. Do you really think Russian players are the only ones to try and use leverage to get a better contract? The only difference is that only Russian players can use the KHL to get a Better contract. In most cases that is probably all it is. Talk to get more money.
LabattBlue Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 I have no problem with what Burmistrov did. He asked for a trade ages ago and was generally mishandled by the team, so went to okay for a team he would rather play for. If he had signed with another NHL team te offer would have been matched. The thing is that only Russian players are willing to go to Russia. The KHL teams probably send out offers to most free agents, but most players don't want I leave NA. If a player is so miserable playing for your team e has asked to be traded multiple times, either chane how you use him or trade him Burmistrov is 23 I think, hardly like me bolted to the KHL first chance he got. The Winn GM just played his hand all wrong He is 21, and if he asked for a trade "ages ago", how old was he when he made that demand? Certainly looks to me like he bolted fairly quickly.
LGR4GM Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Maybe and I am just speculating but maybe Burmistov simply wanted to go home and play at home. I bet a lot of reasons played into that but thats the way the cookie crumbles so to speak.
26CornerBlitz Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Maybe and I am just speculating but maybe Burmistov simply wanted to go home and play at home. I bet a lot of reasons played into that but thats the way the cookie crumbles so to speak. Did anyone complain when Parise went home to Minnesota to play for the Wild?
LaFontaineToMogilny Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 The whole KHL thing is pretty funny in my eyes. For a society that claims to worship the free market it's pretty amusing to see some of the comments made when the NHL (finally) has a semi viable competitor. By the virtues of competition, a strong KHL should drive the NHL to be better, right? Instead, GM's run scared and opt out of exposing themselves to the competition (dubbed 'the Russian factor'). For every player that 'bolts' to the KHL it's just a case where the NHL could not provide the most compelling case for one professional hockey player. People like Don Cherry and Andrew Peters can not comprehend a future where the KHL is the premier hockey league in the world, but there is no guarantee that the NHL will forever be the best hockey league in the world, and if the league doesn't take the competition seriously they might get a sour surprise some day.
TrueBlueGED Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Did anyone complain when Parise went home to Minnesota to play for the Wild? I don't think so, but I'd definitely steer clear of Minnesota-born players in the future ;)
inkman Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 The whole KHL thing is pretty funny in my eyes. For a society that claims to worship the free market it's pretty amusing to see some of the comments made when the NHL (finally) has a semi viable competitor. By the virtues of competition, a strong KHL should drive the NHL to be better, right? Instead, GM's run scared and opt out of exposing themselves to the competition (dubbed 'the Russian factor'). For every player that 'bolts' to the KHL it's just a case where the NHL could not provide the most compelling case for one professional hockey player. For those GM's running scared, they are trying to keep their jobs. Drafting players who, for whatever reason, are viewed as flight risks seriously jeopardizes their job. If I'm a GM, I'll draft a North American player that's 75% as good as a Russian, if its known that this player has no qualms about leaving for the KHL. I think the problem arises when teams jnvest time, money and assets into a player only to have that player bolt for the KHL because he feels wronged. Set up an equity system (finances?) with the KHL teams so they can't cherry pick the best players without compensation.
LabattBlue Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Did anyone complain when Parise went home to Minnesota to play for the Wild? Parise went to the Wild as a UFA, not across the Atlantic to another league while under contract to an NHL team.
26CornerBlitz Posted July 9, 2013 Report Posted July 9, 2013 Parise went to the Wild as a UFA, not across the Atlantic to another league while under contract to an NHL team. No worry of that happening with the agreement between the KHL and NHL to honor each league's player contracts.
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