Trades of Summer 2013

[deluca67]

DStebb, could you answer my questions please? Thank you.

 

 

Although the Sabres did have twice as many 1st round picks, and more picks in the top 52 than any other team in the league, by far.

 

 

 

So, to the anti-Darcy crowd, we're all in agreement?

Are we agreeing that the team will remain stagnant under Regier?

 

Regier is being judged on the sum of his moves which has this team in a spiral of irrelevancy. Regier has made some decent trades and made some decent draft picks over the years. What has that gotten the Sabres? Their worst stretch in franchise history. Regier is responsible for over half of this franchise's missed playoffs. He's lucky he inherited Hasek or it would be far worse then the 7 out 11 years missed Regier is responsible for since Hasek left.

 

Right now the Sabres have some decent prospects, what should be two major pieces sitting on the shelf depreciating and a head coach with no NHL experience. That is why the Sabres are destined to be feeding of the bottom of the Eastern Conference for years to come until Pegula wakes up and pulls the trigger. It makes it even more frustrating seeing a team like the Stars go out and hire Jim Nill. You want to see a quick turnaround, follow the Stars and see how it is really done.

[spndnchz]

Are we agreeing that the team will remain stagnant under Regier?

 

Regier is being judged on the sum of his moves which has this team in a spiral of irrelevancy. Regier has made some decent trades and made some decent draft picks over the years. What has that gotten the Sabres? Their worst stretch in franchise history. Regier is responsible for over half of this franchise's missed playoffs. He's lucky he inherited Hasek or it would be far worse then the 7 out 11 years missed Regier is responsible for since Hasek left.

 

Right now the Sabres have some decent prospects, what should be two major pieces sitting on the shelf depreciating and a head coach with no NHL experience. That is why the Sabres are destined to be feeding of the bottom of the Eastern Conference for years to come until Pegula wakes up and pulls the trigger. It makes it even more frustrating seeing a team like the Stars go out and hire Jim Nill. You want to see a quick turnaround, follow the Stars and see how it is really done.

 

1) If you could explain the bolded it would help me.

 

2) Do you think by TPegs waking up and pulling the trigger tomorrow would make a difference? A real difference? What has Nill done yet? Nothing. Florida took a bunch of players off a Cup team and..... nothing.

[Hoss]

He doesn't want to go through a rebuild. But that's not what you said, is it?

 

Lmao this can't be serious.

 

DStebb, could you answer my questions please? Thank you.

 

A rebuild doesn't end when you trade away your core. A rebuild ends when your youth turns you back into a contender... Therefore, a longer rebuild would consist of waiting until the youth is ready to compete.

 

A longer rebuild would also consist of trading Vanek/Miller for prospects/picks and creating what is likely to be one of the brightest futures for a franchise in the entire NHL. Some of these kids are bound to turn into stars and some are bound to turn into busts, but you'd have a good starting point when some of them get older.

[JJFIVEOH]

Are we agreeing that the team will remain stagnant under Regier?

 

Regier is being judged on the sum of his moves which has this team in a spiral of irrelevancy. Regier has made some decent trades and made some decent draft picks over the years. What has that gotten the Sabres? Their worst stretch in franchise history. Regier is responsible for over half of this franchise's missed playoffs. He's lucky he inherited Hasek or it would be far worse then the 7 out 11 years missed Regier is responsible for since Hasek left.

 

Right now the Sabres have some decent prospects, what should be two major pieces sitting on the shelf depreciating and a head coach with no NHL experience. That is why the Sabres are destined to be feeding of the bottom of the Eastern Conference for years to come until Pegula wakes up and pulls the trigger. It makes it even more frustrating seeing a team like the Stars go out and hire Jim Nill. You want to see a quick turnaround, follow the Stars and see how it is really done.

 

No, we're not agreeing on that. I was asking if we were in agreement about my opinion of Darcy since nobody seemed to contradict anything I said. I don't think it will be stagnant. I think Darcy's been about as active as you can get in rebuilding a team. I don't want to hear any comparisons of Darcy's teams under Golisano, it's just not fair to hold that against him. I would hardly call this the worst stretch in team history. In terms of missing the playoffs, yeah it is the worst stretch. In terms of mediocrity, I recall a period of 15 years in which the Sabres won one playoff series. I also don't see what you have against a rookie coach. A 15-10-5 record with a completely demoralized and stripped down roster is pretty damn impressive to me. All coaches start somewhere, and if these veteran coaches were so much more valuable over a rookie coach, they wouldn't be getting fired.

 

Lmao this can't be serious.

 

 

 

A rebuild doesn't end when you trade away your core. A rebuild ends when your youth turns you back into a contender... Therefore, a longer rebuild would consist of waiting until the youth is ready to compete.

 

A longer rebuild would also consist of trading Vanek/Miller for prospects/picks and creating what is likely to be one of the brightest futures for a franchise in the entire NHL. Some of these kids are bound to turn into stars and some are bound to turn into busts, but you'd have a good starting point when some of them get older.

 

You're right, getting rid of the core isn't ending a rebuild. However, it is a clue that a rebuild has started whether it was intended that way or not. Like it or not, a rebuild has been underway for two years now. There are enough potentials in this orgnaization now where the holes can be filled in with free agents or trades eventually, if need be. I think keeping Vanek, convincing him that the team isn't that far away, is an absolute must. He is still relatively young and is diffucult to replace. He is the kind of player you sign to finish his career with the team.

[...]

Lmao this can't be serious.

 

 

A rebuild doesn't end when you trade away your core. A rebuild ends when your youth turns you back into a contender... Therefore, a longer rebuild would consist of waiting until the youth is ready to compete.

 

A longer rebuild would also consist of trading Vanek/Miller for prospects/picks and creating what is likely to be one of the brightest futures for a franchise in the entire NHL. Some of these kids are bound to turn into stars and some are bound to turn into busts, but you'd have a good starting point when some of them get older.

 

I think the main problem we have, perhaps, is we don't really know what the Sabres' plans are. Vanek complained, er, mentioned that in at least a few interviews.

 

It's not really clear, yet, what the Sabres have coming up from the farm. We can all speculate, but no one knows what Grigs will be like, if Girgs will make the team, who from the farm, if any, will be on the D corp, considering the roster as it stands.

 

Right now it seems like Regier has positioned himself to try and do both: rebuild through trades and free-agency, and start developing a new core. I think we have all kicked this around several times, now, and the outcome is still uncertainty.

 

I mean, we can't possibly expect 18-, 19-, 20-year olds to make the Sabres a contender. We simply can't. If they could, yay, bonus, but in Reality-ville, no.

 

So, I think, like a lot of things discussed on this forum lately, there is, perhaps, TOO MUCH room for interpretation. JJFIVEOH seems to think they're positioned to make some trades and can rely on the young guys and complete the rebuild by the end of the season. I can see how one would interpret what's going on this way.

 

DStebb appears to believe that they're not even half-way there yet and have, essentially, only started a complete rebuild that will take several seasons to develop - and only after several seasons they will know where they stand. I, frankly, lean toward this interpretation.

 

From the information we have, either scenario is possible, but, as noted already, I think the latter is more likely.

[JJFIVEOH]

I think the main problem we have, perhaps, is we don't really know what the Sabres' plans are. Vanek complained, er, mentioned that in at least a few interviews.

 

It's not really clear, yet, what the Sabres have coming up from the farm. We can all speculate, but no one knows what Grigs will be like, if Girgs will make the team, who from the farm, if any, will be on the D corp, considering the roster as it stands.

 

Right now it seems like Regier has positioned himself to try and do both: rebuild through trades and free-agency, and start developing a new core. I think we have all kicked this around several times, now, and the outcome is still uncertainty.

 

I mean, we can't possibly expect 18-, 19-, 20-year olds to make the Sabres a contender. We simply can't. If they could, yay, bonus, but in Reality-ville, no.

 

So, I think, like a lot of things discussed on this forum lately, there is, perhaps, TOO MUCH room for interpretation. JJFIVEOH seems to think they're positioned to make some trades and can rely on the young guys and complete the rebuild by the end of the season. I can see how one would interpret what's going on this way.

 

DStebb appears to believe that they're not even half-way there yet and have, essentially, only started a complete rebuild that will take several seasons to develop - and only after several seasons they will know where they stand. I, frankly, lean toward this interpretation.

 

From the information we have, either scenario is possible, but, as noted already, I think the latter is more likely.

 

Good post. As you hinted at, there are many unknowns right now. One, Darcy has never really orchestrated a rebuild. Two, Darcy has been on a leash for most of his career. These last couple of years is really the first chance he's had to do what he wants. With all that said, Darcy needs a year to see how it's going to pan out, at least see which direction it's going. If a new GM were brought in, I don't think it would have helped, if anything it would have set the team back another year or two.

 

At the end of the year I think they'll have a much better idea of where they are and what needs to be added during the next offseason. Fill in the holes with some quality vets and I think next year the roster will be much more concrete for the coming years. All that will be needed is time, keeping Vanek and bringing in a couple of quality vets should take the heat off of the kids in 2014-15 while they learn.

[...]

After a little more meditation on the matter, I think we'll have a pretty strong indicator as to which direction the team is going when we know what happens with Vanek...and, perhaps less so, Miller.

 

If Vanek re-signs, then they have convinced him that the rebuild will take this season, and then emerge next season as a strong contender. If he is moved or goes UFA then either they didn't convince him or they admitted to him that they need the last two draft classes to develop which will take probably another two seasons. Either way, I think without Vanek, they are doomed to a longer rebuild.

[JJFIVEOH]

After a little more meditation on the matter, I think we'll have a pretty strong indicator as to which direction the team is going when we know what happens with Vanek...and, perhaps less so, Miller.

 

If Vanek re-signs, then they have convinced him that the rebuild will take this season, and then emerge next season as a strong contender. If he is moved or goes UFA then either they didn't convince him or they admitted to him that they need the last two draft classes to develop which will take probably another two seasons. Either way, I think without Vanek, they are doomed to a longer rebuild.

 

I agree, and I think just as important is signing Ott to an extension. I think if they re-sign Ott, they have a better chance of re-signing Vanek. I really think Ott wants to stay in BFLO, his agent said he was going to talk to Darcy after the draft about an extension. Ott's not getting any younger, and he's not the type to accept losing. If he sticks around I think he would have much better luck convincing Vanek to stay than Darcy.

[Hoss]

I think the main problem we have, perhaps, is we don't really know what the Sabres' plans are. Vanek complained, er, mentioned that in at least a few interviews.

 

It's not really clear, yet, what the Sabres have coming up from the farm. We can all speculate, but no one knows what Grigs will be like, if Girgs will make the team, who from the farm, if any, will be on the D corp, considering the roster as it stands.

 

Right now it seems like Regier has positioned himself to try and do both: rebuild through trades and free-agency, and start developing a new core. I think we have all kicked this around several times, now, and the outcome is still uncertainty.

 

I mean, we can't possibly expect 18-, 19-, 20-year olds to make the Sabres a contender. We simply can't. If they could, yay, bonus, but in Reality-ville, no.

 

So, I think, like a lot of things discussed on this forum lately, there is, perhaps, TOO MUCH room for interpretation. JJFIVEOH seems to think they're positioned to make some trades and can rely on the young guys and complete the rebuild by the end of the season. I can see how one would interpret what's going on this way.

 

DStebb appears to believe that they're not even half-way there yet and have, essentially, only started a complete rebuild that will take several seasons to develop - and only after several seasons they will know where they stand. I, frankly, lean toward this interpretation.

 

From the information we have, either scenario is possible, but, as noted already, I think the latter is more likely.

 

I believe that we are right at the halfway point or maybe about to reach it (should reach it by the trade deadline this year). The first half is trading the core for young pieces for the future. The second part is waiting. The waiting part is what a lot of teams/fans are unwilling to go through).

 

(Trading Vanek/Miller is still part of the first half, but I think they've already acquired enough youth to consider the team to be in part two. However, I think it would be naive not to consider trading them and a mistake not to execute a deal for both. It would likely give us the best farm system in the entire NHL and make the future that much brighter. Plus, I am not willing to think for ONE second that either will consider an extension unless we go on some crazy run this year with them still around).

 

 

 

The thing about rebuilds is that the waiting could end this season, or it could take a couple years. You could see players like Hodgson, Grigorenko, Girgensons turn into stars suddenly and then you have a lethal offense. Or they could take a few years to develop into stars... or even NEVER do it. We just don't know. And that's why I don't think Miller or Vanek want to stick around to find out. They'd rather be in comfortable situations as their careers reach their climax.

[Kristian]

No, we're not agreeing on that. I was asking if we were in agreement about my opinion of Darcy since nobody seemed to contradict anything I said. I don't think it will be stagnant. I think Darcy's been about as active as you can get in rebuilding a team. I don't want to hear any comparisons of Darcy's teams under Golisano, it's just not fair to hold that against him. I would hardly call this the worst stretch in team history. In terms of missing the playoffs, yeah it is the worst stretch. In terms of mediocrity, I recall a period of 15 years in which the Sabres won one playoff series. I also don't see what you have against a rookie coach. A 15-10-5 record with a completely demoralized and stripped down roster is pretty damn impressive to me. All coaches start somewhere, and if these veteran coaches were so much more valuable over a rookie coach, they wouldn't be getting fired.

 

 

 

You're right, getting rid of the core isn't ending a rebuild. However, it is a clue that a rebuild has started whether it was intended that way or not. Like it or not, a rebuild has been underway for two years now. There are enough potentials in this orgnaization now where the holes can be filled in with free agents or trades eventually, if need be. I think keeping Vanek, convincing him that the team isn't that far away, is an absolute must. He is still relatively young and is diffucult to replace. He is the kind of player you sign to finish his career with the team.

 

It'd be nice to keep him around, only problem is I don't see why on earth he would want to?

 

Even if this team were close, which I believe they are not, he's going to be able to pick and choose exactly where he wants to go next season, and you bet there'll be contenders in that mix.

 

I'd rather take what we can get in return for him today, than let him walk for another 2nd rounder at the deadline.

 

Not saying I like it, but this is where we're at.

[deluca67]

1) If you could explain the bolded it would help me.

 

2) Do you think by TPegs waking up and pulling the trigger tomorrow would make a difference? A real difference? What has Nill done yet? Nothing. Florida took a bunch of players off a Cup team and..... nothing.

1) Regier inherited a team with Dominik Hasek and any early success (making the playoffs) was a result of having the greatest player in franchise history in his prime.

 

2) Nill has upgraded the coaching position, completed an impact trade and hired the director of amateur scouting away from the Red Wings. All that in the first few weeks of his tenure. Nill has also instilled hope, Stars know they have a quality GM running thier team.

 

And, YES! Pegula firing Regier today would have a great positive impact on the franchise. It would finally put an end to an era of darkness that has surrounded this franchise. It would breathe new life and hope into a franchise and a fan base that has pretty much given up.

No, we're not agreeing on that. I was asking if we were in agreement about my opinion of Darcy since nobody seemed to contradict anything I said. I don't think it will be stagnant. I think Darcy's been about as active as you can get in rebuilding a team. I don't want to hear any comparisons of Darcy's teams under Golisano, it's just not fair to hold that against him. I would hardly call this the worst stretch in team history. In terms of missing the playoffs, yeah it is the worst stretch. In terms of mediocrity, I recall a period of 15 years in which the Sabres won one playoff series. I also don't see what you have against a rookie coach. A 15-10-5 record with a completely demoralized and stripped down roster is pretty damn impressive to me. All coaches start somewhere, and if these veteran coaches were so much more valuable over a rookie coach, they wouldn't be getting fired.

Fair? Regier spent a great deal of Golisano's money, he did it poorly and should/will be judged on it.

 

15 years? The longest stretch in franchise history is nine years without a playoff win which in included 2 years of missing the playoffs, 87-88 to 91-92. Since Hasek left the Sabres have missed the playoffs seven time ans won four playoff series. In the last six years the Sabres have missed the playoffs four times and have zero playoff series wins. I'd say that makes this the worst stretch in franchise history. It's a stretch that by the teams own admission is going to get worse.

 

Darcy has been on a leash for most of his career.

This continues to be a myth proven to be false by the actual dollars Regier has spent over his tenure as Buffalo Sabres General Manager.

[carpandean]

Two, Darcy has been on a leash for most of his career. These last couple of years is really the first chance he's had to do what he wants.

 

I still don't buy that Regier had any more of a leash than many GM's around the league and, as Deluca said, he was able to spend a lot of money; often a lot more than many other teams. Now, he's in a golden situation that is far better than most GMs could ever hope for, but just because it wasn't quite as good before, doesn't mean that he had it that badly. Too many holes remained unfilled; too many mistakes (expensive ones at that) were made.

[deluca67]

It'd be nice to keep him around, only problem is I don't see why on earth he would want to?

 

Even if this team were close, which I believe they are not, he's going to be able to pick and choose exactly where he wants to go next season, and you bet there'll be contenders in that mix.

 

I'd rather take what we can get in return for him today, than let him walk for another 2nd rounder at the deadline.

 

Not saying I like it, but this is where we're at.

Vanek was willing to leave a team that had just won four playoff series in two seasons. Why would he sign with a team with little hope for the immediate future? I agree with you, it would be best to trade Vanek before his value falls any further. The problem is that other teams see the position the Sabres are in. Why would a team give up a package of players/picks/prospects for a player they can get for a song at the deadline or for free after the season? The max value boat on Miller and Vanek has sailed away. More missed opportunities by a franchise that can not afford to let them go by.

[Kristian]

Vanek was willing to leave a team that had just won four playoff series in two seasons. Why would he sign with a team with little hope for the immediate future? I agree with you, it would be best to trade Vanek before his value falls any further. The problem is that other teams see the position the Sabres are in. Why would a team give up a package of players/picks/prospects for a player they can get for a song at the deadline or for free after the season? The max value boat on Miller and Vanek has sailed away. More missed opportunities by a franchise that can not afford to let them go by.

 

Indeed.

 

At this point, the teams that could possibly afford him will most likely happily sit and wait till the deadline until they make a play for him, and possibly even unload some dead wood and salary on us as well in the process.

 

What I don't understand is that people don't realise than when a pro athlete says publically "I'm not sure I want to stay around for a long rebuild", he's actually saying "No way I'm resigning here".

 

Obviously he's not going to come out and say that in public, only to get booed for an entire season.

[TrueBlueGED]

It'd be nice to keep him around, only problem is I don't see why on earth he would want to?

 

Even if this team were close, which I believe they are not, he's going to be able to pick and choose exactly where he wants to go next season, and you bet there'll be contenders in that mix.

 

I'd rather take what we can get in return for him today, than let him walk for another 2nd rounder at the deadline.

 

Not saying I like it, but this is where we're at.

 

While I don't think Vanek's value will be maximized in a deadline deal, he'll still garner significantly more than a second round pick.

[deluca67]

While I don't think Vanek's value will be maximized in a deadline deal, he'll still garner significantly more than a second round pick.

This may be true. IMO, any return for for Vanek at this point will likely be closer to that 2nd round pick than it will the value most would consider Vanek to have.

[carpandean]

While I don't think Vanek's value will be maximized in a deadline deal, he'll still garner significantly more than a second round pick.

This may be true. IMO, any return for for Vanek at this point will likely be closer to that 2nd round pick than it will the value most would consider Vanek to have.

 

It will depend 100% on his health at the deadline. If he is healthy and producing, then he will garner far more than a second. He will be in that top-end scoring rental category that usually commands a pretty hefty fee. However, if he is as beat up as he usually is later in the season, possibly even in and out of the lineup, then he will get closer to that 2nd, if anything. Darcy said that the Wild were talking to him about another forward, but then changed to Pominville at the last minute. Vanek was clearly not 100% at that point. Coincidence?

[Eleven]

A friend in Saint Paul texted me last week: "Saw Vanek skating at his and my alma mater. We don't deserve him."

 

Check out what other teams' boards say about him when the Sabres play those teams. He's more highly regarded elsewhere than he is here.

[Andrew Amerk]

A friend in Saint Paul texted me last week: "Saw Vanek skating at his and my alma mater. We don't deserve him."

 

Check out what other teams' boards say about him when the Sabres play those teams. He's more highly regarded elsewhere than he is here.

 

Isn't that sad?

[bunomatic]

A friend in Saint Paul texted me last week: "Saw Vanek skating at his and my alma mater. We don't deserve him."

 

Check out what other teams' boards say about him when the Sabres play those teams. He's more highly regarded elsewhere than he is here.

 

I agree with what you're saying but personally I've always regarded him highly. Thats why I believe Regier should have worked the best deal possible to maximize return soon after Vanek made his comments about his commitment level to a rebuild. That value decreases with each day as he heads into free agency.

[Lanny]

 

 

I agree with what you're saying but personally I've always regarded him highly. Thats why I believe Regier should have worked the best deal possible to maximize return soon after Vanek made his comments about his commitment level to a rebuild. That value decreases with each day as he heads into free agency.

Wont his value increase as the deadline approaches? Competitive teams looking to add a scoring forward going into the playoffs who will at that point be able to fit him under the cap with the majority of the season played out.

 

A poorly playing Leopold garnered a 2nd and 4th at the deadline. Regher two 2nds. His value at the deadline, assuming health, is much more than just a 2nd round pick.

[bunomatic]

Wont his value increase as the deadline approaches? Competitive teams looking to add a scoring forward going into the playoffs who will at that point be able to fit him under the cap with the majority of the season played out.

 

A poorly playing Leopold garnered a 2nd and 4th at the deadline. Regher two 2nds. His value at the deadline, assuming health, is much more than just a 2nd round pick.

 

I'm not sure. As a rental I suppose you could be right but since he's not signed for next season the team trading for him would be in the same situation the sabres are with the chance he walks to another team at seasons end.

[JJFIVEOH]

Vanek was willing to leave a team that had just won four playoff series in two seasons. Why would he sign with a team with little hope for the immediate future? I agree with you, it would be best to trade Vanek before his value falls any further. The problem is that other teams see the position the Sabres are in. Why would a team give up a package of players/picks/prospects for a player they can get for a song at the deadline or for free after the season? The max value boat on Miller and Vanek has sailed away. More missed opportunities by a franchise that can not afford to let them go by.

 

If you say any other team could avoid giving up a huge package of players/draft picks simply by waiting, how could there have been missed opportunities if everybody is just waiting? Your logic contradicts itself.

[Andrew Amerk]

 

 

I'm not sure. As a rental I suppose you could be right but since he's not signed for next season the team trading for him would be in the same situation the sabres are with the chance he walks to another team at seasons end.

 

Of all the teams in the league, someone will be willing to "go all in" for someone like Vanek at the deadline, in hopes that it gets them a Cup.

[Eleven]

Of all the teams in the league, someone will be willing to "go all in" for someone like Vanek at the deadline, in hopes that it gets them a Cup.

 

Yes. Consider what Pittsburgh gave up for an aged Jarome Iginla.