Place Your Bets! (Vanek, Miller trade edition)

[sicknfla]

 

Ryan Miller is significantly better than Ben Bishop? I am singling him out specifically because Bishop has only played 63 games in his career so we have no way of substiating that claim. He has only been a starter this season. I hate to use this season for comparison but Bishop has been better than Ryan Miller.

 

As for the rest of the list. Ryan may be better than those players however a couple of them have won cups so they must be good enough to do that.

 

I think 6 of them have won a cup to be exact. I might be wrong. Didn't go any further than memory.

 

Not many of the goalies listed would be traded for Miller heads up. Not when you consider age, cost, etc.

[nfreeman]

i think that's right.

 

+1

[Ross Rhea]

I think 6 of them have won a cup to be exact. I might be wrong. Didn't go any further than memory.

 

Not many of the goalies listed would be traded for Miller heads up. Not when you consider age, cost, etc.

 

and one won the gold over him in the last olympics

[Stoner]

I think you've got it right. I've said before here that my preferred rebuild starts with securing Miller for another 4 to 5 years (if the money is right). I think having a championship caliber goalie is crucial to this team's success. We've already got the makings of a decent defense, it's just a matter of shoring up the center corps now. Plug in some wingers where necessary.

 

It really all depends on what Miller wants to do.

 

What makes him championship caliber? You could put him on a perfect team and he could win a Cup? What about 2007? Let's build this mofo from McDavid on down — a la Crosby and Fleury.

[darksabre]

What makes him championship caliber? You could put him on a perfect team and he could win a Cup? What about 2007? Let's build this mofo from McDavid on down — a la Crosby and Fleury.

 

Why? You already have Miller. If he wants to resign, you start there. Do you want to make this process even more difficult?

[Hoss]

 

 

Why? You already have Miller. If he wants to resign, you start there. Do you want to make this process even more difficult?

 

I don't think having Miller around makes a rebuild any easier. By the time the team is good he'll be declining which forces you to try and find a new goalie anyways. Same boat either way, in my opinion.

 

Dropping miller accelerates that search so you can find a new goalie in time for a relevant team. And, as a bonus, it likely makes the team bad enough next year to compete for the true building piece: McDavid. If you want to accelerate the rebuild, you do what it takes to get McDavid.

[LGR4GM]

Why? You already have Miller. If he wants to resign, you start there. Do you want to make this process even more difficult?

My issue isn't with building with Miller. It is that you have to project out 3years. 5years. 10years.

 

3years: Miller is probably still pretty good but on the wrong side of 35. Our young goalies in the system are either of age or about to be

 

5years: Miller is in the twilight of his career and is probably considering retiring and spending more time with the wife. Our GT in the system are of age and can either sink or swim but we will know for sure by then.

 

10years: Miller is retired, we have a new GT 10years is irrelevant.

 

So where am I going with this? Ryan Miller is useful to this team for roughly the next 3-5years depending on how he ages. Our next crop of really good GT Ullmark/Makorov are potentially 2-4years from being in the AHL/NHL. So that means that Ryan Miller COULD HAVE a place here 3 years from now but not 5.

[That Aud Smell]

By the time the team is good he'll be declining which forces you to try and find a new goalie anyways.

i tend to agree with this as well. there's a chance that we could be decent-to-good sooner if we were to keep miller around. i tend to think there's a greater chance that we'll end up with a (moody) guy who's perceived as overpaid and in decline on a team that is trying to rebuild. as for being in decline, it may be difficult to determine whether he is, since he'll be on a not so good team, being asked to manufacture wins while facing too many shots. to me, the better risk is to find other options at his position and get value for him before he walks.

[darksabre]

My issue isn't with building with Miller. It is that you have to project out 3years. 5years. 10years.

 

3years: Miller is probably still pretty good but on the wrong side of 35. Our young goalies in the system are either of age or about to be

 

5years: Miller is in the twilight of his career and is probably considering retiring and spending more time with the wife. Our GT in the system are of age and can either sink or swim but we will know for sure by then.

 

10years: Miller is retired, we have a new GT 10years is irrelevant.

 

So where am I going with this? Ryan Miller is useful to this team for roughly the next 3-5years depending on how he ages. Our next crop of really good GT Ullmark/Makorov are potentially 2-4years from being in the AHL/NHL. So that means that Ryan Miller COULD HAVE a place here 3 years from now but not 5.

 

Right, which is why I propose a 4-5 year deal for him. I think it helps us build the team while allowing the goalies in our system to develop at which point the rebuild should be coming into top form. We might even be lucky enough to have a good team AND Miller at the same time for at least 1 year before making the transition to a new goaltending situation. That transition will be easier if you've built a good team in front of the net.

 

It just makes sense to try to keep him.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

What makes him championship caliber? You could put him on a perfect team and he could win a Cup? What about 2007? Let's build this mofo from McDavid on down — a la Crosby and Fleury.

 

If they think they can get this on the right track in the next few years....Miller-Enroth is fine. Miller is a #3-8 goalie if he isn't overused. Lindy would just kill him and that was one of Lindy's problems. If over the next 2 months they find there is no character here, you trade him...no questions asked.

 

So far I have been impressed with the play of the biggest questions...Myers, Stafford, Leino...under Nolan. The common sense and psych level of this game has been ignored for too long here. I'm not really sure if it has staying power, but they may be able to Gerry-rig this puppy and if so, extending Miller is fine with me.

 

I understand though....in 2007, Miller was just one of the guys and part of the identity of softness. He has grown in my opinion, and if they don't rape the poor kid with 75 games a year....he can be part of a Cup team. Realistically somewhere else...but if the stars line up, maybe here.

[Weave]

I think it also has to do with the devolution of the art of debate. Thanks to things like the internet and the pervasiveness of "entertainment news" and "reality tv", a lot of people from my generation don't have any idea how to conduct themselves in arguments. All they know is that if they yell louder then they can win. But that doesn't work on the internet, so it has to come out in other ways. Like hating on the vet posters just because we set a high standard for our discourse here. Butts and poop. Santorum.

 

Aww man. And I'm eating lunch.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

 

Aww man. And I'm eating lunch.

 

Ovaltine?

[spndnchz]

Chz.

 

:P

 

Thanks hun.

[LGR4GM]

Right, which is why I propose a 4-5 year deal for him. I think it helps us build the team while allowing the goalies in our system to develop at which point the rebuild should be coming into top form. We might even be lucky enough to have a good team AND Miller at the same time for at least 1 year before making the transition to a new goaltending situation. That transition will be easier if you've built a good team in front of the net.

 

It just makes sense to try to keep him.

I too would keep miller on a 4-5yr deal

 

my issue is it would be in the 6mil range and not much above. I think that is structurally possible. Over 5 years you could do... 8mil - 7mil - 6mil - 5mil- 4mil and then he can retire. Each year his contract is easier to trade. He gets a NTC for the first 2 years of his new deal. He gets a limited for year 3 like he has this year and then he can be traded at will the last two years.

[Huckleberry]

Don't think miller wants to stay, he wants to go to a contender, he won't be signed before the trade deadline anyways.

So you deal him for whatever you can get.

 

Same goes for every UFA that isn't signed by then, you just trade them away for assets.

Ott, Miller, moulson should land us some very good prospects / 1st round picks

[sicknfla]

Don't think miller wants to stay, he wants to go to a contender, he won't be signed before the trade deadline anyways.

So you deal him for whatever you can get.

 

Same goes for every UFA that isn't signed by then, you just trade them away for assets.

Ott, Miller, moulson should land us some very good prospects / 1st round picks

 

I tend to agree with this. I think if Miller wanted to stay he would be signed by now. Especially after DR was let go. I can see TP going to him and asking if anything has changed and Miller saying thanks but no thanks.

 

The longer time goes and the less it appears we will get for him the more I want him to stay. Unfortunately it is not happening.

 

 

[nfreeman]

I tend to agree with this. I think if Miller wanted to stay he would be signed by now. Especially after DR was let go. I can see TP going to him and asking if anything has changed and Miller saying thanks but no thanks.

 

The longer time goes and the less it appears we will get for him the more I want him to stay. Unfortunately it is not happening.

 

Well, it's only been a couple of weeks since the earthquake -- one of which was Thanksgiving week. And we don't have the new GM in place yet.

 

I think we're still well short of having a fully cooked decision from the Sabres as to whether they want to keep him and how much they are willing to pay him. If the new GM is in by xmas, then by the end of January he'll have a good sense of Miller, what it will cost to keep him and what the Sabres could get for him in trade. We'll also have a better sense of how far out to sea the team is.

 

My guess is that DR was planning on trading him and Miller had gotten mentally reconciled to leaving. Now it's very much up in the air and will remain so for another month or 2.

[TrueBlueGED]

If they think they can get this on the right track in the next few years....Miller-Enroth is fine. Miller is a #3-8 goalie if he isn't overused. Lindy would just kill him and that was one of Lindy's problems. If over the next 2 months they find there is no character here, you trade him...no questions asked.

 

So far I have been impressed with the play of the biggest questions...Myers, Stafford, Leino...under Nolan. The common sense and psych level of this game has been ignored for too long here. I'm not really sure if it has staying power, but they may be able to Gerry-rig this puppy and if so, extending Miller is fine with me.

 

I understand though....in 2007, Miller was just one of the guys and part of the identity of softness. He has grown in my opinion, and if they don't rape the poor kid with 75 games a year....he can be part of a Cup team. Realistically somewhere else...but if the stars line up, maybe here.

 

Haven't they been trying to gerry-rig this puppy since 2007? Yea I know new people in charge...but they're still going to be left working with Darcy's organization. And the first part of that sentence is really key to me...I want staying power, not a short-term "fix".

[tom webster]

So who has the biggest PP? Pics? :unsure:

 

As I told my wife when our dating started to turn serious, its not that big but it does neat tricks.

[Weave]

Well, it's only been a couple of weeks since the earthquake -- one of which was Thanksgiving week. And we don't have the new GM in place yet.

 

I think we're still well short of having a fully cooked decision from the Sabres as to whether they want to keep him and how much they are willing to pay him. If the new GM is in by xmas, then by the end of January he'll have a good sense of Miller, what it will cost to keep him and what the Sabres could get for him in trade. We'll also have a better sense of how far out to sea the team is.

 

My guess is that DR was planning on trading him and Miller had gotten mentally reconciled to leaving. Now it's very much up in the air and will remain so for another month or 2.

 

If Miller reconciled himself with leaving I don't see how we convince him. I know once I came to terms with leaving my previous employer I was done. They offered me an opportunity but by then I had already rationalized why is is for the best to move on. It may not have been the right decision, but once I had accepted moving on there was no serious consideration to stay when the offer was presented.

[spndnchz]

As I told my wife when our dating started to turn serious, its not that big but it does neat tricks.

 

Oooohhhh. Tell me more! lol

[nfreeman]

If Miller reconciled himself with leaving I don't see how we convince him. I know once I came to terms with leaving my previous employer I was done. They offered me an opportunity but by then I had already rationalized why is is for the best to move on. It may not have been the right decision, but once I had accepted moving on there was no serious consideration to stay when the offer was presented.

 

A lot has happened since he (presumably) reconciled himself to it though. In your situation, if your boss and your boss' boss had been canned and replaced with 3 guys whom you really liked and trusted, wouldn't that have caused you to give serious consideration to staying on?

[tom webster]

Oooohhhh. Tell me more! lol

Two wives, four kids (3 girls), leading to 24/7 workload and he's pretty much a solo act these days. I'm afraid if I tried to bring him out and introduce him to strangers he would just spit up all over himself.

[LGR4GM]

Oooohhhh. Tell me more! lol

Tell me more, tell me more...

[Claude_Verret]

Oooohhhh. Tell me more! lol

 

Kirstie Alley on Stern yesterday said she dated a guy who had literally nothing going on in that department.... the word micro was used. I only had it on in the background so I didn't catch all the details, but I wonder if she threw some Hollywood dude under the bus with that revelation.