Place Your Bets! (Vanek, Miller trade edition)

[dudacek]

I'm curious where people stand on the quality of these players.

Ignoring contract situations:

How many on here see Miller as a member of the league's elite class of goalies, say top 10?

How many see Vanek as an elite sniper, among the top 10 or 15 goal-scoring wingers in the league?

[G-Daddy]

Trading miller and Vanek now will cost them 10 million in gate and sales.( a guess)..just another variable in the equation. And then there is the negative press hit which is unavoidable. Generally speaking. Teams that win 30 games do not draw well. Maybe our market is different. We will know in 14-15..

 

As they work their way into a complete rebuild the revenue stream will suffer even further. The product even with the oshie and perrons will be marginal. How long is the TV deal good for?

 

Thiscould all be chicken little scenerio that never materializes but generally speaking your top 10 percenters are the draw.

It would be much worse press hit of they both are allowed to walk with DR getting nothing in return.

[waldo]

It would be much worse press hit of they both are allowed to walk with DR getting nothing in return.

 

it is about the money. tv contract, advertising and the gate etc//it is about a teams ability to keep its best players.to recruit good players.bring in UFA's...perception can be important. Fans do not think about this stuff but i can guarentee management does.The quality of your product.

 

only the six people here will care about them walking..the rest will be angry they are gone...they had Vanek, Miller, Pom and Soupy to hold the crowd when Chris and Danny left. Who do they have now.

 

I'm curious where people stand on the quality of these players.

Ignoring contract situations:

How many on here see Miller as a member of the league's elite class of goalies, say top 10?

How many see Vanek as an elite sniper, among the top 10 or 15 goal-scoring wingers in the league?

 

with a pp, a true one playmaking center, a power right winger, two scoring lines and a top 15 defense they are both elite.(those things the gm could never make materialize here) IMO Translation.. Translation... on a top 15 team they get much better.

 

Vanek is one of the best LW scorers in the game because he brings your pp up five notches and he is a consistent producer of goals.His playmaking skills are amazing. (Ask pom) He creates space for his linemates, I honestly think he has fifty+ goal 100 pt potential on a good team. If he played on Detroit he would be their higest scorer. He makes his linemates better. . Remember, the pp winsa lot of playoff games.

 

Miller is Miller when motivated. He steals games, even behind the crap Sabres d . just think of what he could do taking half the scoring chance he deals with here or sitting behind the Rangers d.

 

When the league finds Enroths holes opinions will change a bit here. Especially if he cannot adjust.

[Weave]

I'm curious where people stand on the quality of these players.

Ignoring contract situations:

How many on here see Miller as a member of the league's elite class of goalies, say top 10?

How many see Vanek as an elite sniper, among the top 10 or 15 goal-scoring wingers in the league?

 

Miller is about 10ish in my opinion so I guess that falls under top 10. I think it is more accurate to say he's in the 7-12 range.

 

And Vanek is just outside of elite. IMO elite represents players who make the players around him better. Vanek isn't that guy. I still think that puts Vanek solidly in the top 10 for wingers. Maybe even top 5 for LW, behind the likes of Ovie and Sedin.

[Hoss]

I'm curious where people stand on the quality of these players.

Ignoring contract situations:

How many on here see Miller as a member of the league's elite class of goalies, say top 10?

How many see Vanek as an elite sniper, among the top 10 or 15 goal-scoring wingers in the league?

 

If we're classifying Vanek as far as just wingers, he's probably top 10/15. But I don't know if I'd call him an elite player. VERY close to it if not.

As far as Miller, it can be debated. I think he's top 10, but I don't think that makes him elite. I think Quick, Lunqvist, Niemi, Bob (tough because it's just one year), Crawford and Rask are all better. You give Miller some of those defenses and maybe he's as good as them, but that's an argument that we can't really consider because we just don't know.

 

Miller is about 10ish in my opinion so I guess that falls under top 10. I think it is more accurate to say he's in the 7-12 range.

 

And Vanek is just outside of elite. IMO elite represents players who make the players around him better. Vanek isn't that guy. I still think that puts Vanek solidly in the top 10 for wingers. Maybe even top 5 for LW, behind the likes of Ovie and Sedin.

 

I'd argue that Vanek makes his centers better.

[waldo]

Miller is about 10ish in my opinion so I guess that falls under top 10. I think it is more accurate to say he's in the 7-12 range.

 

And Vanek is just outside of elite. IMO elite represents players who make the players around him better. Vanek isn't that guy. I still think that puts Vanek solidly in the top 10 for wingers. Maybe even top 5 for LW, behind the likes of Ovie and Sedin.

 

Who are the top ten goaltenders in your opinion... What teams do they play for.. How are their defenses rated? Do they have better top six defenders than the Sabres,better shut down pairs, have higher shot totals, scoring chances , better defensive centers, better pk etc etc etc. Put Miller on any of those teams and he is top 10 easy , maybe top five.

[Weave]

Ho are the top ten goaltenders in your opinion... What teams do they play for.. How are their defenses rated? Do thy have better top six defenders than the Sabres, better , bigger defenders, better pk etc etc etc.

 

Holy ######. You want a dissertation explaining my post? :P

[TrueBlueGED]

I'm curious where people stand on the quality of these players.

Ignoring contract situations:

How many on here see Miller as a member of the league's elite class of goalies, say top 10?

How many see Vanek as an elite sniper, among the top 10 or 15 goal-scoring wingers in the league?

 

Yes and yes. Although I guess I should caveat Vanek a little in that I think he's an elite scorer, but not necessarily an elite player. Not good enough two-way play or puck possession.

[waldo]

Holy ######. You want a dissertation explaining my post? :P

 

No.save your breath,,,.not that interested.,lol...Just ask any NHL goaltender what they think when you get a chance... :blink:

[Weave]

No.save your breath,,,.not that interested.,lol...Just ask any NHL goaltender what they think..

 

OK........ let me give one a call. :blink:

[dudacek]

Dissertations and the odd Miller hater aside, I think a majority on here and around the league are going to have opinions that fall in a similar neighbourhood to Weave and Waldo and DStebb and Blue.

And that's why I find it hard to accept suggestions the market for Miller has dried up, or the crickets you hear about Vanek.

 

Unlike our team, there are plenty of teams out there actively trying to get better NOW.

 

If I have a tough, deep, balanced team like St. Louis Blues, I might look at the difference between Miller and Halak as the difference between a first-round knockout and a trip to the Stanley Cup final. I might look at Vanek as that clutch scorer that could put us over the top.

 

If I am an emerging team like the Islanders or the Oilers, I might look at Miller as that piece that gives the kids the rock they can lean on, the player that pushes us from potential to contender. Same with an underachieving team like the Caps.

 

If I am a solid Bluejackets or Predators team, I might look at Vanek as that scorer we so desperately need.

Hell, any team with Stanley Cup aspirations should have in interest in Vanek. Of course you would sacrifice your kids and picks in the hope a clutch scorer like that can put you over the top. Can you imagine Vanek with Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

 

Both these guys have five good years left, are solid citizens, are marketable, and are the types of people who are decent odds to resign with their new organization as long as they have some success and are a good fit.

I mean, if our franchise hadn't been run so ###### poorly the past few years, we would be talking about their contract extensions right now, not their trade value.

 

These are the types of guys you trade for, not away.

There has to be a market.

Not even Darcy can blow this.

Can he?

[HopefulFuture]

OK........ let me give one a call. :blink:

 

You have Miller's cell # ? :blink:

[Weave]

Dissertations and the odd Miller hater aside, I think a majority on here and around the league are going to have opinions that fall in a similar neighbourhood to Weave and Waldo and DStebb and Blue.

And that's why I find it hard to accept suggestions the market for Miller has dried up, or the crickets you hear about Vanek.

 

Unlike our team, there are plenty of teams out there actively trying to get better NOW.

 

If I have a tough, deep, balanced team like St. Louis Blues, I might look at the difference between Miller and Halak as the difference between a first-round knockout and a trip to the Stanley Cup final. I might look at Vanek as that clutch scorer that could put us over the top.

 

If I am an emerging team like the Islanders or the Oilers, I might look at Miller as that piece that gives the kids the rock they can lean on, the player that pushes us from potential to contender. Same with an underachieving team like the Caps.

 

If I am a solid Bluejackets or Predators team, I might look at Vanek as that scorer we so desperately need.

Hell, any team with Stanley Cup aspirations should have in interest in Vanek. Of course you would sacrifice your kids and picks in the hope a clutch scorer like that can put you over the top. Can you imagine Vanek with Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

 

Both these guys have five good years left, are solid citizens, are marketable, and are the types of people who are decent odds to resign with their new organization as long as they have some success and are a good fit.

I mean, if our franchise hadn't been run so ###### poorly the past few years, we would be talking about their contract extensions right now, not their trade value.

 

These are the types of guys you trade for, not away.

There has to be a market.

Not even Darcy can blow this.

Can he?

 

I am convinced there is a trade market for Vanek but teams (Buffalo included) are playing it close and slow to get value. I expect it to go to the trade deadline. I am not convinced that the value for Miller is as high. What is the difference in wins/losses between Miller and Halak? or Pavelec? or Nabakov? Is giving up a good young player and a pick worth the difference? Do you project that young player to be worth the difference in wins that a small upgrade to Miller would also get you?

 

I think we lost our best chance at a good return for Miller when Philly decided that goaltending on the cheap would be fine for this year.

 

I don't recall who posted it or where but I recall someone saying that sometimes you have to take the first offer because they usually come from the most motivated buyers.

[bunomatic]

I am convinced there is a trade market for Vanek but teams (Buffalo included) are playing it close and slow to get value. I expect it to go to the trade deadline. I am not convinced that the value for Miller is as high. What is the difference in wins/losses between Miller and Halak? or Pavelec? or Nabakov? Is giving up a good young player and a pick worth the difference? Do you project that young player to be worth the difference in wins that a small upgrade to Miller would also get you?

 

I think we lost our best chance at a good return for Miller when Philly decided that goaltending on the cheap would be fine for this year.

 

I don't recall who posted it or where but I recall someone saying that sometimes you have to take the first offer because they usually come from the most motivated buyers.

 

Gillis feels the same about first offer in the case of the leafs and their stab at Luongo. He holds out for more and tried to create an artificial bidding war through the media by saying 3 or 4 teams are in pursuit and I believe it'll eventually cost him his job.

[spndnchz]

Miller is about 10ish in my opinion so I guess that falls under top 10. I think it is more accurate to say he's in the 7-12 range.

 

And Vanek is just outside of elite. IMO elite represents players who make the players around him better. Vanek isn't that guy. I still think that puts Vanek solidly in the top 10 for wingers. Maybe even top 5 for LW, behind the likes of Ovie and Sedin.

 

Adam and Hodgson disagree. Pommers may want to pipe in but will sit with a smirk in the corner.

[Andrew Amerk]

 

 

You have Miller's cell # ? :blink:

 

I do. Name your price, maybe I'll sell it.

[spndnchz]

 

 

You have Miller's cell # ? :blink:

 

1-800-nou-reen

[TrueBlueGED]

I am convinced there is a trade market for Vanek but teams (Buffalo included) are playing it close and slow to get value. I expect it to go to the trade deadline. I am not convinced that the value for Miller is as high. What is the difference in wins/losses between Miller and Halak? or Pavelec? or Nabakov? Is giving up a good young player and a pick worth the difference? Do you project that young player to be worth the difference in wins that a small upgrade to Miller would also get you?

 

Well, according to Hockey Prospectus, MIller's GVT is 13.9 (41st in league), Halak is .2 (700th), Pavelec .5 (659th), and Nabokov 6.7 (221st). The following is Miller and the 5 players above/below him:

 

36

Alex Steen

37

Marian Hossa

38

Nicklas Backstrom

39

Jakub Voracek

40

Claude Giroux

41

Ryan Miller

42

Phil Kessel

43

Patrik Elias

44

Patrice Bergeron

45

Matt Moulson

46

James Neal

 

Obviously GVT isn't everything, but he's grouped in with some pretty good players, which is especially impressive when you consider how putrid the Sabres were this year. That said, I agree that his trade value isn't especially high given his age and contract situation, and I think that's stupid, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

[Marvelo]

I'm not a Miller hater, I just think he's a has-been as a member of the Sabres. He might do well if traded to a good, balanced team but here he's been very inconsistent, certainly not an ace. Vanek still has something left in the tank and for sure, he's still a world class sniper. He must feel like the last man standing. I think he has indicated he wants nothing to do with a rebuild and that's what's happening here. Just about the only knock against him is his durability and endurance.

 

I have zero confidence that Regier will trade either of them...

[Ross Rhea]

Miller is Miller when motivated. He steals games, even behind the crap Sabres d . just think of what he could do taking half the scoring chance he deals with here or sitting behind the Rangers d.

 

When the league finds Enroths holes opinions will change a bit here. Especially if he cannot adjust.

 

Miller does not steal games.

Enroth has had better stats the past 2 seasons playing behind the same "crap Sabres D".

There is atleast 50 games of tape on Enroth and nobody was able to find his "holes" while he was winning gold at the world championships.

 

Enough with the Miller excuses and justifications for being average. I don't think his trade value is very high at all and Darcy is just figuring that out now and he doesn't know what to do.

[JJFIVEOH]

Well, according to Hockey Prospectus, MIller's GVT is 13.9 (41st in league), Halak is .2 (700th), Pavelec .5 (659th), and Nabokov 6.7 (221st). The following is Miller and the 5 players above/below him:

 

36

Alex Steen

37

Marian Hossa

38

Nicklas Backstrom

39

Jakub Voracek

40

Claude Giroux

41

Ryan Miller

42

Phil Kessel

43

Patrik Elias

44

Patrice Bergeron

45

Matt Moulson

46

James Neal

 

Obviously GVT isn't everything, but he's grouped in with some pretty good players, which is especially impressive when you consider how putrid the Sabres were this year. That said, I agree that his trade value isn't especially high given his age and contract situation, and I think that's stupid, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

 

Holtby and Reimer are 18th and 23rd. Doesn't say much does it?

 

GVT means nothing. I don't care who is best in the league in GA divided by goals scored, on Thursdays, multiplied by team ranking in shots on goal, divided by salary, with two bonus points added for award nominations.

 

All that matters is what goaltenders are supposed to do............ stop pucks. Enroth had a better save percentage, and the last two years he did it with a lesser team in front of him than Miller.

[LGR4GM]

Holtby and Reimer are 18th and 23rd. Doesn't say much does it?

 

GVT means nothing. I don't care who is best in the league in GA divided by goals scored, on Thursdays, multiplied by team ranking in shots on goal, divided by salary, with two bonus points added for award nominations.

 

All that matters is what goaltenders are supposed to do............ stop pucks. Enroth had a better save percentage, and the last two years he did it with a lesser team in front of him than Miller.

Didn't they have the same team in front of eachother? :unsure:

 

Miller: Mins 2302, SV% .915

Mins 3536, Sv% .916

 

Enroth: Mins 623, SV% .919

Mins 1399, SV% .917

 

Also saying for 2 years Enroth outplayed miller is kinda false. have a .001% better in saves is barely statistically relevant. i am sure one of our math posters could figure out what the difference in #of goals allowed would be but basically all we have is that last year Enroth was better than Miller while playing 1,679 less minutes. Hard to judge that.

[dudacek]

I'm not going to engage in Miller debate with people who don't like him no matter the circumstances.

I will rhetorically ask how many wins Enroth had during this time he was supposedly outplaying him.

[TrueBlueGED]

Holtby and Reimer are 18th and 23rd. Doesn't say much does it?

 

GVT means nothing. I don't care who is best in the league in GA divided by goals scored, on Thursdays, multiplied by team ranking in shots on goal, divided by salary, with two bonus points added for award nominations.

 

All that matters is what goaltenders are supposed to do............ stop pucks. Enroth had a better save percentage, and the last two years he did it with a lesser team in front of him than Miller.

 

Holtby and Reimer had great seasons, and that is reflected in their GVT, so I don't see the issue. Unless it's a matter of "this stat doesn't mesh with my predispositions therefore it sucks" mentality at work.

[IKnowPhysics]

Holtby and Reimer had great seasons, and that is reflected in their GVT, so I don't see the issue. Unless it's a matter of "this stat doesn't mesh with my predispositions therefore it sucks" mentality at work.

 

I, however, believe GVT is a useful tool, but am skeptical of it's fair application to goaltenders.