Around the NHL - 2013-2014

[LastPommerFan]

My point is how many would, for a chance to play in the NHL?

 

And if a players don't already know that getting knocked out by a legal body check can scramble your brains, then hockey players are dumber than I thought.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that hockey already falls into that category of "known risk" sports, like skiing, skateboarding, etc…

 

We as a species still only have a very rough understanding of what this means. We have the bodies. The Duersons and Seaus and Boogaards and Martins. But we really only have a minimal understanding of how the brain works let alone how it is damaged.

[That Aud Smell]

My point is how many would, for a chance to play in the NHL?

 

It is? My sense was your point is that untold hundreds of NHL players already had done so. My mistake.

 

And if a players don't already know that getting knocked out by a legal body check can scramble your brains, then hockey players are dumber than I thought.

 

See, this is more in line with that I took to be your point. Again, when, say, Paul Cyr got his bell rung, his eggs scrambled, and was given whatever passed for treatment at the time (a protocol that likely involved an increased dosage of post-game drinks) and then encouraged to get back on the ice ASAP, was that Cyr knowing that a few more of those bell-ringers and he'd have a ## increased percentage of having suicidal thoughts in his 50s? Early onset of dementia?

 

I say no.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that hockey already falls into that category of "known risk" sports, like skiing, skateboarding, etc…

 

The idea is that the concussion risks associated with Junior's skateboarding around the cement structures of your local downtown is on par with the concussion risks assumed by your average pro hockey player? I disagree, if so.

 

We as a species still only have a very rough understanding of what this means. We have the bodies. The Duersons and Seaus and Boogaards and Martins. But we really only have a minimal understanding of how the brain works let alone how it is damaged.

 

This is fair. But the evidence that is emerging is troubling and gives me real pause.

 

My littlest guy has some classmates who play Town football, and he's started asking if he can join. The answer has been, and will remain, a very firm 'no.'

 

Hockey would be a different matter, but he's shown no interest in it.

Edited December 19, 2013 by That Aud Smell

[TrueBlueGED]

Another thing to consider with the informed consent debate: these guys are elite athletes in their 20s, I suspect there's a major "it won't happen to me" attitude of invincibility. Guys don't want to wear cut-resistent socks or visors because they're uncomfortable, and we expect them to legitimately weigh the risks of brain trauma 20 years down the road?

[drnkirishone]

 

What are you trying to say here?

that hits like that should be reviewed after the fact. Maybe even give guys like that fines so they have prior history. but to roast a guy and call for his head over charging or boarding is insane they are about the 2 most subjective calls in the rule book

[bunomatic]

There are no excuses now. If I as a fan am informed and somewhat knowledgable about the effects of brain trauma injuries even in a rudimentary way then these athletes that make their living playing contact sports know. Its that simple.

[That Aud Smell]

Another thing to consider with the informed consent debate: these guys are elite athletes in their 20s, I suspect there's a major "it won't happen to me" attitude of invincibility. Guys don't want to wear cut-resistent socks or visors because they're uncomfortable, and we expect them to legitimately weigh the risks of brain trauma 20 years down the road?

 

i don't expect them to legitimately weigh anything. i think they're owed a full and fair opportunity to do so, is all.

[darksabre]

 

These attitudes aren't any different today than they ever have been.

 

 

This is pretty much my entire point. The attitude of the game hasn't matured beyond "guess I shouldn't swing my stick at Mario's head", but the players in it are the biggest and the fastest they've ever been. That almost certainly is a conflict isn't it? It's like trying to put high speed bullet trains on normal tracks.

 

Shouldn't the priority of everyone involved be to make the game as physical as possible within reason? So that maybe the star players in this league can go home at night without having to be thankful some a-hole didn't try to kill them?

 

Should we be blaming Lafontaine for his shortened career?

[Taro T]

Chris Neil.

 

Shoulder-to-shoulder; took extra steps to get there.

 

Open ice.

 

Blindsided.

 

Egregious. Anyone on this board who didn't think that was egregious at the time?

Definitely don't have the time nor energy to compare the 2 hits. Maybe I will over the weekend. As I recall, Neal was still driving his legs at/near contact, arm drove through Drury's head, and Drury's direction of travel never altered prior to / during the hit.

I think it's probably a little of both. The boarding doesn't happen without the blast of energy delivered by the charge. I won't even begin to debate whether things would be different in open ice. This incident wasn't.

If the hit is open ice, it's probably a 2 minute charge. If it's against the boards, it's a 2 minute charge. Because of where Schenn was, it should have been an in person hearing.

[26CornerBlitz]

@DNFlyers

Listening to Brayden Schenn's non-existent memory of his hit from Tuesday, it's amazing he's going to play tonight: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20131219_Schenn_can_t_recall_memorable_hit__grateful_he_was_only_slightly_hurt.html …

[LTS]

Yes. This is exactly the charging rule. I mean, exactly.

 

42.1 - Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner.

 

Which is why I said I see why it is called charging (I think I said that, I did revise my post a few times.) I understand the call, I disagree with how the rule is written. Checking is violent, period. So if that's the case many hits are charging. The usual barometer of charging is whether or not the player was still striding to maintain speed or accelerate at the time of the hit. In this case Wilson takes strides but they are not power strides. They maintain his momentum to be certain, but he had speed. I would reference Campbell on Umberger. If you watch the video, Campbell had vacated the zone but came back from the far side of the rink. He was striding up until about 4 feet from Umberger at which point he unloaded on him in one of the more violent hits we've ever seen. Is it because 35 feet of travel before that wasn't enough?

 

I'm fairly certain no one has suggested that.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that, I (at least) am arguing that there's hitting and then there's driving a player into the boards. If Wilson hits Schenn with 50% of the momentum he did, the result is the same[0] except Schenn isn't helped off the ice when he can't stand up.

 

[0] mostly the same, Wilson might actually still be standing instead of flying into the boards himself and falling down.

 

How does Wilson hit with 50% less momentum? He would have to actively engage in a stopping motion to reduce his speed that much before the hit. I also think that if Schenn was on the boards Wilson might have actually hit the boards in front of Schenn with the same amount of force but not actually contacting Schenn. This happens constantly. Players only need to slow up another player and slamming the boards in front of them or behind them gives the other player pause for thought. Once Wilson had to go around Simmonds I think the timing was thrown off and this was the outcome. I still say that if he doesn't hit Schenn there he'd hear about it on the bench. Coaches are driving these players to play that way as well. Read about Scotty Parker being bullied by Bob Hartley so he would fight on the ice when he didn't want to. Players don't control everything.

 

Not getting enough attention now that Darcy is gone, Ghost?

 

I have an honest question for you: do you play hockey?

 

Just to chime in.. only because I've been on the same side as Ghost here. I do play hockey.

 

Preferences for a more or less physical game obviously will vary from person-to-person. Personally, I still think one-on-one fighting has a place in the game if both guys agree to the scrap. And, I like a physical hard-checking brand of hockey. But, anyone who has ever played the game at any level knows you don't blindside a guy at full speed when he is three feet from the boards. I doubt you'll find a single player or former player who will disagree... that just isn't a good hockey play. If he was on the boards, or maybe even at mid-ice, then I don't really have a problem with the hit.

 

It's an unfortunate play in my opinion. I'll bet money that if Simmonds isn't in the path then Wilson would have cut off Schenn rather than drill him. If this was center ice he would have still destroyed Schenn. The results could still be the same. Again, see Campbell v. Umberger referenced above.

 

 

Another thing to consider with the informed consent debate: these guys are elite athletes in their 20s, I suspect there's a major "it won't happen to me" attitude of invincibility. Guys don't want to wear cut-resistent socks or visors because they're uncomfortable, and we expect them to legitimately weigh the risks of brain trauma 20 years down the road?

 

I expect them to behave just like most people who are offered a lot of money. They see the immediate gratification and refuse to acknowledge long term impacts. When it comes to big money entertainment the likelihood to be short-sighted increases. Look at the number of musical artists who have signed their lives away for the hopes of a few years of living the rock star dream. Everyone starts out playing a game. However, in the day and age, once a child shows a hint at perhaps being able to achieve more they immediately begin having everything thrown at them. This is only going to strengthen the idea that what they are doing is good. No one is going to tell them otherwise, the dream is too strong. We, as fans, can see it easier because we aren't consumed by that dream.

 

Bottom line this is going to be a suspension because the NHL needs it to be. They referees needed to call a major penalty because they are under scrutiny as well. That said, I look at Engelland's hit on Abdelkader as being much worse because he deliberately targeted the head. Wilson hits Schenn shoulder to shoulder... the speed and distance from the boards are obviously a concern but the circumstance of the play are important (at least for me). I understand the counter opinions here. It's the gray area (although not by the way the charging rule is written).

[Eleven]

@DNFlyers

Listening to Brayden Schenn's non-existent memory of his hit from Tuesday, it's amazing he's going to play tonight: http://www.philly.co...tly_hurt.html …

 

From the article: "He did not undergo a concussion baseline test, despite the obvious head trauma. He said that's because he did not feel any symptoms once he made it to the locker room."

 

Talk about stupid.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Santa Claus

[darksabre]

@DNFlyers

Listening to Brayden Schenn's non-existent memory of his hit from Tuesday, it's amazing he's going to play tonight: http://www.philly.co...tly_hurt.html …

 

If I'm the NHL, I'm opening an inquiry into the Flyers medical staff. That doesn't seem right.

[Hoss]

 

 

From the article: "He did not undergo a concussion baseline test, despite the obvious head trauma. He said that's because he did not feel any symptoms once he made it to the locker room."

 

Talk about stupid.

 

Absolutely. Schenn should be out whether or not he feels good. Better to be safe.

[qwksndmonster]

that hits like that should be reviewed after the fact. Maybe even give guys like that fines so they have prior history. but to roast a guy and call for his head over charging or boarding is insane they are about the 2 most subjective calls in the rule book

I watched the hit, so I'm not judging it on what the ref called. How can there be a "good" hit followed by a "good" brawl followed by a "good" suspension?

 

Just to chime in.. only because I've been on the same side as Ghost here. I do play hockey.

I wondered that specifically about Ghost because of how strong his opinions are/have been on this board about physical play. Thanks for giving your responses context, too :)

[skaught]

I can't see how he couldn't have gotten a concussion from that especially with the memory loss.

[LTS]

 

From the article: "He did not undergo a concussion baseline test, despite the obvious head trauma. He said that's because he did not feel any symptoms once he made it to the locker room."

 

Talk about stupid.

 

Agreed. Regardless of the comments on legality, etc. that hit knocked him good and to not undergo proper tests is just ridiculous. Moreover, concussion symptoms do not always set in immediately and can take days. This is exactly why testing is needed. Of course the one major symptom is loss of memory regarding the event that caused the concussion.

 

If he really has no symptoms and no concussion then great, but to not be tested just proves that athletes are their own worst enemy and will continue to play despite their own safety.

[carpandean]

Doesn't the instigator rule tell us the exact opposite? To me it says to the players "We, the NHL, will punish these plays how we see fit, and if you try to police yourselves, we will punish you."

 

It was mostly tongue-in-cheek. By not punishing these hits hard enough, the players are providing the incentive (through the catastrophic hits) to not turn your back on the play. That is what they are, quite unintentionally, letting the players police themselves on.

[That Aud Smell]

From the article: "He did not undergo a concussion baseline test, despite the obvious head trauma. He said that's because he did not feel any symptoms once he made it to the locker room."

Talk about stupid.

Absolutely. Schenn should be out whether or not he feels good. Better to be safe.

Agreed. Regardless of the comments on legality, etc. that hit knocked him good and to not undergo proper tests is just ridiculous. Moreover, concussion symptoms do not always set in immediately and can take days. This is exactly why testing is needed. Of course the one major symptom is loss of memory regarding the event that caused the concussion. If he really has no symptoms and no concussion then great, but to not be tested just proves that athletes are their own worst enemy and will continue to play despite their own safety.

 

FWIW: I think young Schenn has access to enough information that he can give informed consent to making a choice here that risks permanently compromising his brain.

 

It's crazy what he's proposing to do.

[FolignosJock]

 

 

FWIW: I think young Schenn has access to enough information that he can give informed consent to making a choice here that risks permanently compromising his brain.

 

It's crazy what he's proposing to do.

 

As a medical professional and as an organization you have a duty to the person to ensure that they are not injured. If he didnt undergo concussion testing the league should investigate the medical staff or the team should fire them. That is CRAZY that in this day and age with all of the lawsuits and stuides on head trauma that he didnt get tested. Hopefully someone in his family is able to sue for him when he cant remember their names when he is 40.

[apuszczalowski]

As a medical professional and as an organization you have a duty to the person to ensure that they are not injured. If he didnt undergo concussion testing the league should investigate the medical staff or the team should fire them. That is CRAZY that in this day and age with all of the lawsuits and stuides on head trauma that he didnt get tested. Hopefully someone in his family is able to sue for him when he cant remember their names when he is 40.

I hope not, If he made the decision to forgo any testing when he got to the bench, and also made the decision not to get further testing and play, thats his problem if his brain is scrambled by 40, its not like he can say he didn't know that he could end up with further complications if he continues to play.

[shrader]

As a medical professional and as an organization you have a duty to the person to ensure that they are not injured. If he didnt undergo concussion testing the league should investigate the medical staff or the team should fire them. That is CRAZY that in this day and age with all of the lawsuits and stuides on head trauma that he didnt get tested. Hopefully someone in his family is able to sue for him when he cant remember their names when he is 40.

 

And it's not like he would be the first athlete to ever lie and say he was feeling no symptoms.

[MattPie]

I hope not, If he made the decision to forgo any testing when he got to the bench, and also made the decision not to get further testing and play, thats his problem if his brain is scrambled by 40, its not like he can say he didn't know that he could end up with further complications if he continues to play.

 

You could probably argue that he's not in the right mind to make that kind of decision, given the circumstances.

[26CornerBlitz]

NHL DoPS Video: No supplemental discipline for Washington's Wilson

 

The NHL Department of Player Safety on Thursday announced Washington Capitals forward Tom Wilson will not be subject to supplemental discipline for a check on Philadelphia Flyers forward Brayden Schenn in a game Tuesday at Wells Fargo Center.

 

Wilson had a phone hearing Thursday afternoon with the Department of Player Safety.

[26CornerBlitz]

Stars' top line enjoying chemistry, success

 

DALLAS -- One big strength for the Dallas Stars through their first 33 games has been the strong play from their top line of captain Jamie Benn, center Tyler Seguin and rookie Valeri Nichushkin. Heading into a Thursday visit from the Vancouver Canucks, this talented trio had combined for 78 points.

 

Nichushkin, Dallas’ first-round pick (No. 10) in the 2013 NHL Draft, has skated alongside Benn and Seguin for the past 15 games. His 12 goals currently tie him for second among NHL rookies and his plus-10 rating is fourth best.

 

His early success makes it easy for those seeing him skate to forget that he’s still only 18. But despite his youth and blend of size and pace, Seguin knows the ceiling is very high with his new linemate.

 

“He could be the next Evgeni Malkin if not better. He’s got to work on finding consistency,” Seguin said of Nichushkin. “He’s learning the NHL game too. I think for starters, once he gets the language down, things are only going to get better.”

 

:angry:

[darksabre]

NHL DoPS Video: No supplemental discipline for Washington's Wilson

 

"We've determined that since the Flyers medical staff hasn't tested Schenn to see if he was hurt, there is no injury and Wilson will not be suspended."