JJFIVEOH Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 The Sabres said as much themselves. We have "suffering" to look forward to in the near future. That was Regier's word. This franchise hasn't hit rock bottom yet. The next couple of seasons will be rock bottom. A top to bottom, clean slate rebuild takes about 4 years. This is not a top to bottom rebuild and the Sabers are already about a year and a half ahead of what is usually considered a rebuild between the trade for Hodgson and the drafting of two 1st round centers.
deluca67 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 A top to bottom, clean slate rebuild takes about 4 years. This is not a top to bottom rebuild and the Sabers are already about a year and a half ahead of what is usually considered a rebuild between the trade for Hodgson and the drafting of two 1st round centers. How are the Sabres "a year and a half ahead?" This team is at the beginning stages of a complete rebuild. They haven't even completed the demolition (Vanek & Miller). Since when did we start trusting Darcy? I don't trust Darcy. I did believe him though when he said that just making the playoffs is not the goal. I believe that is a calculated strategy created by Black and Regier because they know the playoffs are not in this teams immediate future.
JJFIVEOH Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 How are the Sabres "a year and a half ahead?" This team is at the beginning stages of a complete rebuild. They haven't even completed the demolition (Vanek & Miller). I explained it in the post you quoted. I don't think you understand what a complete rebuild is.
thewookie1 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 #1 pick + next years 3rd rounder for Myers and the 8th (Potential #1 D-Man + Former Calder Trophy winner and the 8th overall) #3 pick for Miller (Tampa needs a goalie in order to make the playoffs) #4 pick for Stafford, McNabb/Sekera and the #16 (Nashville is looking for scoring and a top 4 D man)'s Bernier for Gerbe + Hackett + next years 2nd rounder Suddenly we draft 1,3,4 without touching Vanek who may want to stay with that much skill arriving albeit young. 1. MacKinnon 2. Jones 3. Drouin 4. ???? Nurse? If Florida take Drouin, we take Jones with 3 or 4
deluca67 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 I explained it in the post you quoted. I don't think you understand what a complete rebuild is. Maybe that's because Hodgson and a couple of draft picks don't equate to a start of a "complete rebuild."
JJFIVEOH Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 Maybe that's because Hodgson and a couple of draft picks don't equate to a start of a "complete rebuild." If they are acquisitions made with the intentions of them being a part of the future, yeah it is kinda the start of a rebuild. A complete rebuild would mean they would be shipped out of BFLO too. I hate going back to the Panthers scenario, but THAT is a complete rebuild, they will be contenders for a playoff spot this year. And this will be his 4th year. What he has done down here is nothing short of remarkable.
deluca67 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 If they are acquisitions made with the intentions of them being a part of the future, yeah it is kinda the start of a rebuild. A complete rebuild would mean they would be shipped out of BFLO too. I hate going back to the Panthers scenario, but THAT is a complete rebuild, they will be contenders for a playoff spot this year. And this will be his 4th year. What he has done down here is nothing short of remarkable. You don't trade away a 23 year old center and a couple of first round picks in a rebuild, even a "complete rebuild."
JJFIVEOH Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 You don't trade away a 23 year old center and a couple of first round picks in a rebuild, even a "complete rebuild." You fail to see the point.
Jsixspd Posted June 2, 2013 Report Posted June 2, 2013 I doubt Myers is that easy to move, given his contract. And whose fault (*koff* Regier *koff*) is that? :lol:
... Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 You fail to see the point. I guess I do, too. The roster is far from a contender as is. Remove Vanek and Miller from that, uhm, there really isn't anything there to hang your hat on.
JJFIVEOH Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 I guess I do, too. The roster is far from a contender as is. Remove Vanek and Miller from that, uhm, there really isn't anything there to hang your hat on. Here's the point. A complete and total rebuild takes about 3-4 years. In the last couple of years Darcy has shed this team of much of the core. In their place he picked up Hodgson and drafter two 1st round picks. The first step in rebuilding is ridding your team of the cancer. The second step is to make moves that will help to make you a contender in the future. Most of th first step is done, the second step has been in progress for over a year. Going back to my original post: 'I don't know why people are subscribing to this notion that it's going to take a few years to rebuild.' The Sabres rebuild is already in progress and has been for a while. Whether that was the intention or not, all of the recent transactions have been to bolster the future and not improve the present. The Panthers will be a playoff contender this year, in the 4th year of a complete rebuild. Darcy will not be going anywhere near the scale that Tallon did and the Sabres rebuild is already in progress. This team's rebuild will not take a few years. Two years max.
sicknfla Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 #1 pick + next years 3rd rounder for Myers and the 8th (Potential #1 D-Man + Former Calder Trophy winner and the 8th overall)[/pcolor] #3 pick for Miller (Tampa needs a goalie in order to make the playoffs) #4 pick for Stafford, McNabb/Sekera and the #16 (Nashville is looking for scoring and a top 4 D man)'s Bernier for Gerbe + Hackett + next years 2nd rounder Suddenly we draft 1,3,4 without touching Vanek who may want to stay with that much skill arriving albeit young. 1. MacKinnon 2. Jones 3. Drouin 4. ???? Nurse? If Florida take Drouin, we take Jones with 3 or 4 I am assuming this was a joke. Just for arguments sake if I am the other gm I do not make any deal with buffalo unless I am asking for next year's number 1. Odds are that will be top 5 pick.
Hoss Posted June 3, 2013 Author Report Posted June 3, 2013 Can teams trade players and still assume part of their contracts? If Nashville is willing to give up the #4 pick for Vanek I would make that deal. I would then pick 4th, 8th and 16th. If Colorado is interested in Myers? I would look for their 2nd rounder this season #32 and their 1st next year in return. Looking to pick up the #1 overall pick is exciting and would make for some great conversations. I just don't think it is the right move for this franchise considering where they are. Yes, we can take on some of a player's contract in a trade (which we did with Pominville). And picking up the number one overall pick is right for ANY franchise. I don't really know what you mean by that. Especially in this draft... The first trade with Vanek yes, but only with a 4th rounder coming to Buffalo too. :P The 2nd trade I disagree with its price Myers, the 8th pick and a 2nd next year should be enough seeing as although Myers has been lessening in value; he still has a lot. Miller for the 11th is weak and it would be stupid to trade Miller to a rival franchise who Buffalonians despise. If you think that's getting the number one pick, you might be loony. It's going to take a boatload to get the number one pick. Especially this year. And Colorado won't drop farther than four (they'll want to end up with at least one of Jones, Drouin, MacKinnon or Barkov). Technically you could: #1 pick + next years 3rd rounder for Myers and the 8th (Potential #1 D-Man + Former Calder Trophy winner and the 8th overall) #3 pick for Miller (Tampa needs a goalie in order to make the playoffs) #4 pick for Stafford, McNabb/Sekera and the #16 (Nashville is looking for scoring and a top 4 D man) Suddenly we draft 1,3,4 without touching Vanek who may want to stay with that much skill arriving albeit young. 1. MacKinnon 2. Jones 3. Drouin 4. ???? If Florida take Drouin, we take Jones with 3 or 4 With this response, I can see you clearly don't have a gauge on how much it truly takes to get into the top three picks in this draft. If the Sabres are seriously attempting to get to number one, then Grigorenko, Hodgson and Ennis are all most likely to be brought up in the conversations. We'll be adding MacKinnon who likely starts as a top six center immediately. So if it takes one of them to get there, you might be willing to do so.
deluca67 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 Here's the point. A complete and total rebuild takes about 3-4 years. In the last couple of years Darcy has shed this team of much of the core. In their place he picked up Hodgson and drafter two 1st round picks. The first step in rebuilding is ridding your team of the cancer. The second step is to make moves that will help to make you a contender in the future. Most of th first step is done, the second step has been in progress for over a year. Going back to my original post: 'I don't know why people are subscribing to this notion that it's going to take a few years to rebuild.' The Sabres rebuild is already in progress and has been for a while. Whether that was the intention or not, all of the recent transactions have been to bolster the future and not improve the present. The Panthers will be a playoff contender this year, in the 4th year of a complete rebuild. Darcy will not be going anywhere near the scale that Tallon did and the Sabres rebuild is already in progress. This team's rebuild will not take a few years. Two years max. This is not intended to start a re-hash of a previous discussion, IMO, the Sabres "rebuild" began with the trade of Jason Pominville. Previous to that move all decisions made were with the idea that this team was a piece or two away. The Pominville trade was the Sabres waving the white flag on the current addition of the Buffalo Sabres. "Two years max?" That is a whole lot of wishful thinking there. It is more likely the Sabres will be picking top ten over the next two - three years. I do hope you are right, the Sabres are due for some graces from the Hockey Gods, a miracle turnaround who make up for the tough times this team has faced over the last 11 seasons.
... Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 This is not intended to start a re-hash of a previous discussion, IMO, the Sabres "rebuild" began with the trade of Jason Pominville. Previous to that move all decisions made were with the idea that this team was a piece or two away. The Pominville trade was the Sabres waving the white flag on the current addition of the Buffalo Sabres. Exactly as I see it. As far as I am concerned, the Sabres decided they were rebuilding this season. Whether moves prior to are "rebuilding-type moves" doesn't matter when the organization makes those moves with different intentions, different internal goals, and a different over-arching view of the team's build (assuming they have one in the first place). Once a team decides they are fer-shure rebuilding, all of those factors change. For example, does Hodgson fit the Sabre's vision of a new, improved, contending roster? I hope not, actually, based on what I've seen. Do they give him another season to see what he develops into? Haven't we been through that enough already to know the wait-and-see strategy doesn't work here...not with the players Regier finds. Stafford, Myers, and Gerbe come to mind pretty quickly. BTW, NONE of those guys are worth keeping around, either. Dump them. So you have Vanek, Miller, Stafford, Myers, Gerbe on the chopping block. If they want to acquire a high pick this year, or trade for some decent offense, they're going to have to give up a good D-man more than likely, and the best for that is Sekera. Okay, so, assume they've moved Vanek, Miller, Myers, Sekera, and ideally Gerbe and Stafford are gone. While this was a loser team, I have great doubts that in two seasons, these guys will be replaced by rookies or talented UFAs and that they will gel into a contending team. I need more evidence, more data, more something other than history to change my mind and convince me that the Sabres will contend in two years.
qwksndmonster Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 Sizzle why no Hodgson? Because of other players that disappointed? Huh?
JJFIVEOH Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 It still doesn't negate the fact that the moves they made help in a rebuild. What difference does it make if they said they were rebuilding as of last week or two years ago when most of the moves benefit a rebuild to begin with? Are you serious about Hodgson needing another chance to prove what he's worth? Darcy traded for a rookie center and then drafted two more. A rookie and two draftees, does anybody honestly think he had the present in mind back then in terms of immediate help?
TrueBlueGED Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different team than some here. Hodgson was one of the few bright spots this season and definitely a guy I want on the team going forward.
sicknfla Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 I believe the decision to rebuild was also made last year. It was obvious that we did not have the centers to compete at a high level. Then we trade Roy over the summer and bring in nobody to replace him. When I say nobody I mean centers - obviously Ott was a great addition. I also believe that it is obvious the rebuild was started before DR's extension. Firing Ruff appeased the fans but the FO knew long ago that this CORE was not the answer and that DR would be in charge of rebuild. The ONLY logical reason for extending him when they did. I also believe that they felt there would no hockey this year. They were not prepared for the strike to end. Hence, butchering the way they handled Grigs. From a business standpoint they had to tell us after the season. Sure as hell not going to tell us before the start of a strike shortened season.
qwksndmonster Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 I don't want Hodgson because Darcy traded for him. Also cause his name is stupid.
... Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 As I watch these playoffs play out, it's pretty clear to me Hodgson doesn't have the game the big boys bring to the party. I wouldn't be crushed if he were here next season considering where the Sabres are, but he needs to bring it all or be sent packing.
JJFIVEOH Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 As I watch these playoffs play out, it's pretty clear to me Hodgson doesn't have the game the big boys bring to the party. I wouldn't be crushed if he were here next season considering where the Sabres are, but he needs to bring it all or be sent packing. It's the playoffs. Everybody steps it up a notch for the playoffs. None of these players played like this during the regualr season. It's his second year, his first full year on a pathetic offensive team and he still managed to finish with as many or more points than the likes of P-Ville, Brad Richards (who everybody wanted so badly to get), Jeff Carter, Jarome Iginla, Evander Kane............. Man, tough crowd. :P I don't want Hodgson because Darcy traded for him. Also cause his name is stupid. I'm hoping that's a joke. Around here you never know.
deluca67 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 It still doesn't negate the fact that the moves they made help in a rebuild. What difference does it make if they said they were rebuilding as of last week or two years ago when most of the moves benefit a rebuild to begin with? Are you serious about Hodgson needing another chance to prove what he's worth? Darcy traded for a rookie center and then drafted two more. A rookie and two draftees, does anybody honestly think he had the present in mind back then in terms of immediate help? Absolutely! 100%! Hodgson was brought in to be a top two center. They burned a year off of Grigorenko's contract with the hope he could add some offense. It wasn't until the wheels came off again this season they decided to play the "rebuilding card" as a way to stem off some of the criticism that was surely heading their way. Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different team than some here. Hodgson was one of the few bright spots this season and definitely a guy I want on the team going forward. Hodgson is the shiny new toy, once the newness wears off many will be singing a different tune.
X. Benedict Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 Absolutely! 100%! Hodgson was brought in to be a top two center. They burned a year off of Grigorenko's contract with the hope he could add some offense. It wasn't until the wheels came off again this season they decided to play the "rebuilding card" as a way to stem off some of the criticism that was surely heading their way. Hodgson is the shiny new toy, once the newness wears off many will be singing a different tune. Hodgson has a skill set that doesn't come along every day. There are limitations in his game, but many are due to simple inexperience. (defense, faceoffs for example can be overcome). I expect him to be anchoring a line for years to come. Have you already made up your mind about the kid?
TrueBlueGED Posted June 3, 2013 Report Posted June 3, 2013 Hodgson has a skill set that doesn't come along every day. There are limitations in his game, but many are due to simple inexperience. (defense, faceoffs for example can be overcome). I expect him to be anchoring a line for years to come. Have you already made up your mind about the kid? DeLuca made up his mind the day of the trade.
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