The "trial" of Terry Pegula

[That Aud Smell]

Way to moderate! Always welcome new posters with open arms, never with a personal attack. Classy!

Apparently things like "reading" and "knowing information" makes one comparable to a domestic terrorist. Who knew? 

 

Lighten up, Francises (Frances?).

 

It was a light jab at a rambling, ranting 1500 word post from a poster whose account was created in October and whose first two posts both came yesterday (the other post, btw, was a bit weird (as well)).

 

Now, I don't mean to slag rambles and rants - I get into them myself sometimes. But if you're new to an online community and jump in feet first (head first, actually) with content like this, you deserve to have your nose tweaked a bit.

 

And while my general reaction to the post is/was #TLDR, I did see in glossing it that there was mention of the theory that environmental issues are helping fuel/drive the circumstances giving rise to international terrorism. With all due respect to Bill Nye the Science Guy, that is not the sort of theorizing in which purported advocates of science should be engaged.

 

And, like I said, I'm fairly confident that another regular is ghost writing that account. 

[Stoner]

I will say this PA.  When I see how much wealth Pegula has, it makes me furious to think the city of Buffalo and county of Erie would use tax payer dollars to fund a new NFL stadium.  He's a Billionaire, let him pay for it himself. Use tax money to actually help people or upgrade Buffalo's infrastructure like the telecoms. We could probably run fiber to every corner of Erie county with 500 million bucks to spend.

 

Let the billionaires build their own s#!t and stop stealing more money from the poor people of the county.

He got tax credits for HarborCenter.

Lighten up, Francises (Frances?).

 

It was a light jab at a rambling, ranting 1500 word post from a poster whose account was created in October and whose first two posts both came yesterday (the other post, btw, was a bit weird (as well)).

 

Now, I don't mean to slag rambles and rants - I get into them myself sometimes. But if you're new to an online community and jump in feet first (head first, actually) with content like this, you deserve to have your nose tweaked a bit.

 

And while my general reaction to the post is/was #TLDR, I did see in glossing it that there was mention of the theory that environmental issues are helping fuel/drive the circumstances giving rise to international terrorism. With all due respect to Bill Nye the Science Guy, that is not the sort of theorizing in which purported advocates of science should be engaged.

 

And, like I said, I'm fairly confident that another regular is ghost writing that account. 

I will never understand the idea that new posters have to watch what they say for awhile until they are taken into the bosom of the community. That's too real-worldy. Maybe post counts shouldn't be listed.

[Eleven]

EVERY DEVELOPER GETS TAX CREDITS!

[That Aud Smell]

I will say this PA.  When I see how much wealth Pegula has, it makes me furious to think the city of Buffalo and county of Erie would use tax payer dollars to fund a new NFL stadium.  He's a Billionaire, let him pay for it himself. Use tax money to actually help people or upgrade Buffalo's infrastructure like the telecoms. We could probably run fiber to every corner of Erie county with 500 million bucks to spend.

 

Let the billionaires build their own s#!t and stop stealing more money from the poor people of the county.

 

He got tax credits for HarborCenter.

 

The tax credit and incentive gambit that all developers work under existing laws (between what the IDA provided and the brownfield credits, the Pegulas got a goodly sum for HarborCenter (was it ~$60M?)) is much less problematic to me than the outright corporate welfare that is connected to stadium site development.

 

At present, the NFL is as much a real estate development association -- a heavily subsidized one -- than it is a sports league.

 

And yeah, these posts probably belong in the politics thread as well. 

Or stated another way:

 

EVERY DEVELOPER GETS TAX CREDITS!

Edited December 15, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[SDS]

Lighten up, Francises (Frances?).

 

It was a light jab at a rambling, ranting 1500 word post from a poster whose account was created in October and whose first two posts both came yesterday (the other post, btw, was a bit weird (as well)).

 

Now, I don't mean to slag rambles and rants - I get into them myself sometimes. But if you're new to an online community and jump in feet first (head first, actually) with content like this, you deserve to have your nose tweaked a bit.

 

And while my general reaction to the post is/was #TLDR, I did see in glossing it that there was mention of the theory that environmental issues are helping fuel/drive the circumstances giving rise to international terrorism. With all due respect to Bill Nye the Science Guy, that is not the sort of theorizing in which purported advocates of science should be engaged.

 

And, like I said, I'm fairly confident that another regular is ghost writing that account. 

 

In general, the community has a terrible track record in sniffing out these situations - this one included.

 

I also found the post in jest due to the length and seriousness of the original post...

[LGR4GM]

I dislike the tax credits because I think it is BS.  I hate the flat out here's 250million for your new fancy stadium which the county will never ever get back. If that is the case be like we get 100% of the concession and merchandise profits from stadium sales until you pay us off plus 10% interest. That way the county makes money. Instead it will be a Pegula ass kissing fest.

You know I think the Roman's started using taxes to pay for sports, that seemed to end well for them.

[That Aud Smell]

I dislike the tax credits because I think it is BS.  I hate the flat out here's 250million for your new fancy stadium which the county will never ever get back. If that is the case be like we get 100% of the concession and merchandise profits from stadium sales until you pay us off plus 10% interest. That way the county makes money. Instead it will be a Pegula ass kissing fest.

 

There are arguments to be made that the tax credit and IDA schemes are justified for driving development.

 

The corporate welfare associated with stadium development - especially in recent times - feels and looks more like a form of extortion. I've never seen a serious study or white paper that suggests that those deals are a net benefit to the communities where they occur.

[LGR4GM]

There are arguments to be made that the tax credit and IDA schemes are justified for driving development.

 

The corporate welfare associated with stadium development - especially in recent times - feels and looks more like a form of extortion. I've never seen a serious study or white paper that suggests that those deals are a net benefit to the communities where they occur.

Sports teams like the Bills don't actually add a lot of money to the local economy. How many fans of other teams are flying to Buffalo to watch games? a few thousand maybe?  It is extortion.  If you don't give us money we relocate, suck it.  I wish a politician would be like we are going to use that money for this telecom infrastructure or to house our poor and homeless veterans, then publicize the out of that plan and be like well owner, move your team because you don't like veterans.

[nfreeman]

It would probably be appropriate to see what, if anything, TP actually negotiates with the city/county/state regarding a new stadium before criticizing him for it.

[darksabre]

Lighten up, Francises (Frances?).

 

It was a light jab at a rambling, ranting 1500 word post from a poster whose account was created in October and whose first two posts both came yesterday (the other post, btw, was a bit weird (as well)).

 

Now, I don't mean to slag rambles and rants - I get into them myself sometimes. But if you're new to an online community and jump in feet first (head first, actually) with content like this, you deserve to have your nose tweaked a bit.

 

And while my general reaction to the post is/was #TLDR, I did see in glossing it that there was mention of the theory that environmental issues are helping fuel/drive the circumstances giving rise to international terrorism. With all due respect to Bill Nye the Science Guy, that is not the sort of theorizing in which purported advocates of science should be engaged.

 

And, like I said, I'm fairly confident that another regular is ghost writing that account. 

 

I will disagree with you. Aside from your opinion about the asserted connection between climate change and terrorism, new guy's post was a spot on assessment of the EPA report. 

 

And it wasn't a typical "oh god the angry new guy" post either, regardless of whether or not it was ghost written. 

 

PA's remark was valid. Freeman can't help himself butt be butt-hurt when someone makes him look silly. 

[That Aud Smell]

I will disagree with you. 

 

How dare you, sir.

Aside from your opinion about the asserted connection between climate change and terrorism, new guy's post was a spot on assessment of the EPA report. 

 

And it wasn't a typical "oh god the angry new guy" post either, regardless of whether or not it was ghost written. 

 

I fully agree that the post was reasoned, well written, and such.

 

I'll take a pass on weighing in on the mod stuff.

[darksabre]

How dare you, sir.

 

 

I fully agree that the post was reasoned, well written, and such.

 

I'll take a pass on weighing in on the mod stuff.

And that is certainly your prerogative.

[LGR4GM]

It would probably be appropriate to see what, if anything, TP actually negotiates with the city/county/state regarding a new stadium before criticizing him for it.

He will negotiate with the city because he is a businessman and he will get concessions. Probably millions in tax breaks and tax payer dollars to fund it.  It is almost guaranteed like clockwork.

[Eleven]

He will negotiate with the city because he is a businessman and he will get concessions. Probably millions in tax breaks and tax payer dollars to fund it.  It is almost guaranteed like clockwork.

 

 

I'll try again:

 

EVERY DEVELOPER GETS TAX BREAKS!

[That Aud Smell]

@eleven: is it your sense that the deals (recently) secured by owners of NFL teams have been different by an order of magnitude? seems that way to me.

[LGR4GM]

I'll try again:

 

EVERY DEVELOPER GETS TAX BREAKS!

I understand that. 

I don't really care as much about the tax breaks.

 

I care about the check for X that the county will give to Pegula to build the stadium.  The NFL made north of 9 Billion dollars last year. Terry Pegula is worth something north of 4 Billion alone. The NFL should be funding new stadiums not tax payer dollars from hard working Americans who are already overworked and underpaid.

Here's an article about what states and counties pay for Stadiums http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/complicated-and-expensive-what-recent-nfl-stadium-deals-can-teach/article_b7146513-2a04-5aff-ad0e-dd2047b7867e.html

"

Those city taxes, however, aren’t yet available — they’re still paying off debt on the Metrodome.

Construction started late in 2013. The toll has risen from $975 million to $1.1 billion. The public will pay for just under half."

 

500million Dollars in state money going to an industry that makes 9 Billion annually seems like total to me.

Edited December 15, 2015 by LGR4GM

[That Aud Smell]

I'd read that St. Louis was trying to keep the Rams with a proposal for a stadium development priced at ~$1B, with the owner footing about 33% of that cost (and the rest coming from some combination of the state, the city, and the NFL's loan program). It sounds like that deal is doomed.

[Eleven]

@eleven: is it your sense that the deals (recently) secured by owners of NFL teams have been different by an order of magnitude? seems that way to me.

 

 

I understand that. 

I don't really care as much about the tax breaks.

 

I care about the check for X that the county will give to Pegula to build the stadium.  The NFL made north of 9 Billion dollars last year. Terry Pegula is worth something north of 4 Billion alone. The NFL should be funding new stadiums not tax payer dollars from hard working Americans who are already overworked and underpaid.

Here's an article about what states and counties pay for Stadiums http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/complicated-and-expensive-what-recent-nfl-stadium-deals-can-teach/article_b7146513-2a04-5aff-ad0e-dd2047b7867e.html

"

Those city taxes, however, aren’t yet available — they’re still paying off debt on the Metrodome.

Construction started late in 2013. The toll has risen from $975 million to $1.1 billion. The public will pay for just under half."

 

500million Dollars in state money going to an industry that makes 9 Billion annually seems like total ###### to me.

 

In terms of actually contributing cash, I see things a little differently than you two appear to, but I also don't think it's as cut and dry as the tax break situation, which is the norm in New York State.

 

The city, and, moreso, the county and the state, contribute to numerous cultural organizations, including theaters, dance companies, musical companies, libraries, galleries, museums, the zoo, and, yes, sports organizations.  I don't think a contribution commensurate to what the Bills, as a cultural organization, means to the community, is an inappropriate use of funds.

 

EDIT:  Here's some data on use of county funds:  http://data.buffalonews.com/databuff/arts-entertainment/grants-arts-cultural-organizations-erie-county-since-1996/

 

You'll note that some of these recipients are private businesses.

Edited December 15, 2015 by eleven

[LGR4GM]

"In a breakdown of costs provided by officials, state and county taxpayers are on the hook for $226.8 million for the duration of the lease. That includes a series of annual payments for annual capital and game-day expenses."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8769320/buffalo-bills-reach-agreement-ralph-wilson-stadium-lease

 

The taxpayers of NY will give 226million dollars in welfare money to the bills during the length of the current lease... for an industry projected to make 11 Billion dollars this season.  Again why? Why the ###### are we cutting school programs but giving out welfare to a billion dollar industry.

In terms of actually contributing cash, I see things a little differently than you two appear to, but I also don't think it's as cut and dry as the tax break situation, which is the norm in New York State.

 

The city, and, moreso, the county and the state, contribute to numerous cultural organizations, including theaters, dance companies, musical companies, libraries, and, yes, sports organizations.  I don't think a contribution commensurate to what the Bills, as a cultural organization, means to the community is inappropriate.

I'm sorry did you just put Libraries and Football together? One is for sporting entertainment and the other helps people find jobs, get information, and provide countless services regardless of race gender or money.

 

Glad NY funds it's libraries like it does football... oh wait, they ###### don't.

"The city’s three public library systems — the New York Public Library, the Brooklyn Public Library and the Queens Library — are seeking $1.4 billion in city funds over the next decade to bring all 217 public library branches up to modern building standards. Though library officials request capital money yearly as part of the city’s annual budget process, that amount is the largest in recent years and the request provides a detailed accounting of the problems that buildings often treasured as community resources are facing."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/nyregion/new-york-libraries-citing-dire-need-for-renovation-seek-funds-from-city.html?_r=0

 

 

How about just Erie county... here's how much money that Library system got for it's entire operating budget last year $26,718,710 in 2015. So, I am not going to apologize for being angry about wasting, yes wasting, tax money on a multi-billion dollar industry when other more helpful to the community things like libraries, are under funded in the extreme.

Edited December 15, 2015 by LGR4GM

[Eleven]

"In a breakdown of costs provided by officials, state and county taxpayers are on the hook for $226.8 million for the duration of the lease. That includes a series of annual payments for annual capital and game-day expenses."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8769320/buffalo-bills-reach-agreement-ralph-wilson-stadium-lease

 

The taxpayers of NY will give 226million dollars in welfare money to the bills during the length of the current lease... for an industry projected to make 11 Billion dollars this season.  Again why? Why the ###### are we cutting school programs but giving out welfare to a billion dollar industry.

I'm sorry did you just put Libraries and Football together? One is for sporting entertainment and the other helps people find jobs, get information, and provide countless services regardless of race gender or money.

 

Glad NY funds it's libraries like it does football... oh wait, they ###### don't.

"The city’s three public library systems — the New York Public Library, the Brooklyn Public Library and the Queens Library — are seeking $1.4 billion in city funds over the next decade to bring all 217 public library branches up to modern building standards. Though library officials request capital money yearly as part of the city’s annual budget process, that amount is the largest in recent years and the request provides a detailed accounting of the problems that buildings often treasured as community resources are facing."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/nyregion/new-york-libraries-citing-dire-need-for-renovation-seek-funds-from-city.html?_r=0

 

 

How about just Erie county... here's how much money that Library system got for it's entire operating budget last year $26,718,710 in 2015. So, I am not going to apologize for being angry about wasting, yes wasting, tax money on a multi-billion dollar industry when other more helpful to the community things like libraries, are under funded in the extreme.

 

I sure did.  And given the average collection of an Erie County Library, it's appropriate.  It's a cultural institution, albeit one with ancillary functions, and not an educational institution.  (Unless you believe that the complete works of Dick Francis and Janet Evanovich, together with complete seasons of Seinfeld on DVD, are somehow critical to an educated populace.)

[LGR4GM]

I sure did.  And given the average collection of an Erie County Library, it's appropriate.  It's a cultural institution, albeit one with ancillary functions, and not an educational institution.  (Unless you believe that the complete works of Dick Francis and Janet Evanovich, together with complete seasons of Seinfeld on DVD, are somehow critical to an educated populace.)

The average collection of an Erie county library? explain?

Explain what you mean Eleven because I think a library has a hell of lot more to offer than a football game.

[Eleven]

The average collection of an Erie county library? explain?

 

I don't think you'll find an extensive collection of classic literature.  Mostly detective stories and romance novels.  Which I'm not looking down my nose at, but why is paying for that form of entertainment any better than paying for another form of entertainment?

 

Moreover, you've ignored every other type of cultural institution that I listed--and there were a lot of them.

 

(PS:  Google "Janet Evanovich net worth."  She's a mystery writer.  I know that the Williamsville library has virtually every book she's written.)

Edited December 15, 2015 by eleven

[LGR4GM]

I don't think you'll find an extensive collection of classic literature.  Mostly detective stories and romance novels.  Which I'm not looking down my nose at, but why is paying for that form of entertainment any better than paying for another form of entertainment?

 

Moreover, you've ignored every other type of cultural institution that I listed--and there were a lot of them.

I don't give a about the other "cultural institutions" you listed. You arrogant son of bitch. Libraries provide classic literature, modern literature, computers, information specialists, and tons of information for people who would otherwise not have access to it. How the is a out of work father of 4 supose to get a job, well he could go to the library and read a book about and teach himself a new skill.  Or he could use the library computers because he can't afford one. But wait I am sorry it is just a "cultural institution" for entertainment.

 

It isn't and never has been. A libraries primary function is to provide information and resources to ppl who need it. You think reading a romance novel isn't good for someone? why? Reading skills and critical thinking are developed by reading just about anything. I read every night and that has helped me countless times in my life.  What about children reading times when small kids may only have 1 time a day where they are read anything or even have a chance to read themselves? Just entertainment I guess educating those children and opening up the literal world to them.

 

Football and libraries. What you just said is the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever heard. At no point in your response did you utter anything I could even consider an actual thought. I award you no points and go enjoy spending millions on football when there is an institution that helps more people and can be shown to enrich the lives and help citizens remove themselves from poverty that serves the same entertainment function.

 

How dare you. And no I will not apologize or edit out the swearing because honestly I am pissed off at that neanderthal type of response.

 

Good day sir. I said good day.

[Claude_Verret]

Jeez Liger....step away for a bit perhaps?

[Eleven]

Well, for one thing, you appear to have convinced yourself that I want to de-fund libraries.  Not the case at all.

 

Nor do I want to de-fund the Philharmonic, for example.  I assure you that I go to many more BPO concerts (2-3 per year) than Bills games (about 1 every five years).

 

I just don't understand why professional sports teams, which are as much a part of the cultural landscape as professional theatre troupes (actually, much, much more a part of the cultural landscape) should receive no funding at all, as if they didn't benefit the community at all.

 

But I'll also say this much:  I'm unwilling to continue the dialogue until you can calm down.