OT: Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[Weave]

Forth amendment thrown out the window, I'm sure the Patriot Act was used as justification. How things progressed in Boston was as close to marshal law as I ever want to see on US soil ever again. The lockdown or whatever they called it, military like house to house searches and citizens be treated like hostile combatants. Assault weapons being trained on innocent citizens, not only as they were forced out of their homes but also as they were directed down the street. They knew at that point that those citizens weren't who they were looking for.

 

When it was reported that the Army was "assisting" in Boston initially I honestly was worried what was happening. The first thing that entered my mind was why are US combat troops being deployed on US soil for a police action. My 25 yr old son and I had a pretty heated discussion he didn't see anything wrong with it and I did big time. I told him to google the Posse Comitatus Act. I was relieved to find out it was the Mass. National Guard and not the US Army.

 

The 4th amendment became a memory about the time Nancy Reagan started spreading the "Just Say No" campaign.

 

Our liberties have been in a tail spin since the War on Drugs started. We as a society turned a blind eye to civil liberty to feel safer as the war on drugs raged. We cheered as our gov't stole and sold property in the name of drugs. we cheered as our gov't used the proceeds of those sales to equip themselves as a domestic army, complete with military grade surveillance and communications equipment. We cheered as we were being forced to stop at roadside checkpoints and explain where we were coming from and what we were doing simply because we were on the road at 2am on a Saturday. We cheered when our government told us all that we'd be eavesdropped on and forced to go through body scanners and full body pat downs post-9/11. And now we are cheering when those military equipped "officers of the peace" force already spooked citizens from their homes at gunpoint, frisk them multiple times, AND NOT ALLOW THEM BACK INTO THEIR FREAKING HOMES when the search is ended.

 

Just who the ###### are we safer from anyway?

[SwampD]

The 4th amendment became a memory about the time Nancy Reagan started spreading the "Just Say No" campaign.

 

Our liberties have been in a tail spin since the War on Drugs started. We as a society turned a blind eye to civil liberty to feel safer as the war on drugs raged. We cheered as our gov't stole and sold property in the name of drugs. we cheered as our gov't used the proceeds of those sales to equip themselves as a domestic army, complete with military grade surveillance and communications equipment. We cheered as we were being forced to stop at roadside checkpoints and explain where we were coming from and what we were doing simply because we were on the road at 2am on a Saturday. We cheered when our government told us all that we'd be eavesdropped on and forced to go through body scanners and full body pat downs post-9/11. And now we are cheering when those military equipped "officers of the peace" force already spooked citizens from their homes at gunpoint, frisk them multiple times, AND NOT ALLOW THEM BACK INTO THEIR FREAKING HOMES when the search is ended.

 

Just who the ###### are we safer from anyway?

Awesome.

 

Your post, that is. Not what is happening. That is most certainly not awesome.

[Weave]

Awesome.

 

and you thought I was a right-winger, correct? :D

 

 

edit- gattdammit. my hot button has been pressed and now I'm all wound up.

[Eleven]

There is merit to your suggestion, 11.

 

Actually, a true Muslim is supposed to stand up to injustice and tyranny everywhere, which would include so called Muslims.

 

I am having a difficult enough time just dealing with our own little (20,000) Muslim community here in Halifax (it is so muddied with culture and tradition that is not part of the teaching of the faith) and it's a losing battle by the way, that I just don't have the strength for anything more. At least not at this time. Insh'Allah, maybe later.

 

As to the bolded and underlined ... ISINO. Do I need to spell it out for you?

 

I understand. At one point, there were nations/states that were Christian in name only, too. Probably still are. It was public uprising that helped it all along.

 

If that's the way the search was conducted, I have a problem with a lot of that.

 

Had a conversation with a very conservative friend last week. My take: if, in the wake of a situation like this, the police knock on my door and ask entry, sure, come on in. I have nothing to hide, and even back in the days when I did (we're talking about a bong, here, not a weapon), I'd know that wasn't what they were looking for. But to demand entry? To declare that I can't walk the streets? No freaking way. That's a different story. There are people--and I am not necessarily speaking about anyone on this board--but there are people who need to remember that there are freedoms other than those guaranteed by the Second and Tenth (only when agenda-fitting) Amendments.

 

Said conservative friend agreed.

 

And the citizens were cheering them for that behavior. :doh:

 

Pro tip: If you are pointing a weapon at me, you are not rescuing me.

 

And Bloomberg wants to ignore the Constitution to "combat" the menace of terrorism.

 

http://politicker.co...have-to-change/

 

 

 

The Mayor's cure is much worse than the disease.

 

I don't know about y'all but I feel much safer since our liberties have been trampled over in the name of security. :rolleyes:

 

Yes. Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither, or however it goes.

 

Let's keep America American. That means freedom. That means fighting xenophobia. That means progress. And yes, that means fighting enemies--but real ones, not perceived ones. That means EARNING the "we're better than you" swagger, and not just swaggering.

[...]

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes."

 

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

 

One of my favorites:

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

 

Another favorite:

 

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

[LastPommerFan]

TBP, does this become an issue in the political sphere? Could the security/surveillance state thing become an election issue? I mean, if sizzle and i agree about something...

[...]

TBP, does this become an issue in the political sphere? Could the security/surveillance state thing become an election issue? I mean, if sizzle and i agree about something...

 

It's either that or it's the end times.

[Weave]

TBP, does this become an issue in the political sphere? Could the security/surveillance state thing become an election issue? I mean, if sizzle and i agree about something...

 

I expect there are too many folks that are comforted by the security state we now have. Every incident of mass violence brings with it a call for something to be done. Be it guns, cameras on city block corners, or body scanners at airports.

 

Too much "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide".

[LastPommerFan]

It's either that or it's the end times.

 

Sizzle/Glass 2016.

 

I expect there are too many folks that are comforted by the security state we now have. Every incident of mass violence brings with it a call for something to be done. Be it guns, cameras on city block corners, or body scanners at airports.

 

Too much "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide".

 

Then this is where we have to lean on our SCOTUS.

[...]

 

 

Sizzle/Glass 2016.

 

 

 

Then this is where we have to lean on our SCOTUS.

 

Maybe a decade ago, perhaps longer than that, but this SCOTUS? No fricking way. That court is neutered.

[Weave]

Sizzle/Glass 2016.

 

 

 

Then this is where we have to lean on our SCOTUS.

 

Except they've upheld roadblocks that check every person on the road without regard to reasonable suspicion, confiscation and sale of private property seized in drug raids, and not Mirandizing suspected criminals in situations like Friday's.

 

SCOTUS isn't helping the cause of civil liberties anymore. Maybe when the drug laws are relaxed attitudes start to change.

[darksabre]

 

 

I expect there are too many folks that are comforted by the security state we now have. Every incident of mass violence brings with it a call for something to be done. Be it guns, cameras on city block corners, or body scanners at airports.

 

Too much "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide".

 

So you probably wouldn't like London...

[LastPommerFan]

well, ######.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I'm gonna check in again in a bit......and if this keeps percolatin' the way it is now.....I just may have a bit of renewed faith in society........

[Weave]

well, ######.

 

I hesitate to take the convo there but, you want to know why I am loathe to acquiesce to those calling for more gun control? Take a look at the trampling the 4th amendment has received. Every little step seemed pretty damned reasonable to a number of intelligent, rational people. Sobriety checkpoints? Reasonable. No knock warrants in support of the drug war? reasonable. Seizure and sale of private property during drug raids? Reasonable. Purchase of law enforcement gear with those funds? Reasonable. Cameras in public places in high crime areas? Reasonable. Body scanners at airports? Reasonable. How about police cruisers with license plate readers on the back. They drive around all day looking for revenue. Well, if you are up to date with your registration you have nothing to hide, right? Right? Right?

 

What we end up with is what we saw this past weekend. I've seen my fill of civil liberty violations in the name of safety.

[Taro T]

I expect there are too many folks that are comforted by the security state we now have. Every incident of mass violence brings with it a call for something to be done. Be it guns, cameras on city block corners, or body scanners at airports.

 

Too much "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide".

A quick Google search didn't turn up any ACLU complaints about the door-to-door searches at gunpoint (but several about the suspect not being Mirandized). That is disappointing, as that would be a complaint that I'd support the ACLU on.

[K-9]

Why should moderate Muslims be spending time and energy castigating extremists (when they don't identify with, or associate with extremists in the first place)? What other parts of life to you find moderates tempering the views of extremists? Isn't it enough that they don't associate with them, tell everyone who asks that they consider them a corruption of their religion, and go about their lives?

 

I, as a Christian, don't have anything to do with Westboro Baptist and their weirdness. Nor do I think time invested in changing their minds would be effective or worthwhile. Ask me though, and I'd tell you they are nutters.

 

I just find it to be a weird expectation.

 

(aside: isn't an attack on the Prophet as an historical baddy a little gratuitous, as most Muslims wouldn't associate themselves with this characterization anyway).

 

 

And Armstrong is good.

 

 

Outstanding. I wish I had your eloquence.

[Weave]

A quick Google search didn't turn up any ACLU complaints about the door-to-door searches at gunpoint (but several about the suspect not being Mirandized). That is disappointing, as that would be a complaint that I'd support the ACLU on.

 

I suspect it's rather unpatriotic to complain about the methods used to capture a radical Islamic terrorist bomb suspect on the loose. I'm not surprised the number here that are treading lightly is great.

[K-9]

To the bolded, IMHO that isn't germane to this discussion. We're discussing this like civilized human beings; IMHO (again), when we start bringing in paid entertainers who know that they'll make more money by getting a rise out of somebody into the discussion we're less likely to keep up the discussion on civil terms. (Wow, never thought I'd write 'discussion' and 'discussing' so many times within 2 sentences.)

 

I think I'm being civil. And people can always have a civil conversation about people that aren't civil.

[darksabre]

 

 

I hesitate to take the convo there but, you want to know why I am loathe to acquiesce to those calling for more gun control? Take a look at the trampling the 4th amendment has received. Every little step seemed pretty damned reasonable to a number of intelligent, rational people. Sobriety checkpoints? Reasonable. No knock warrants in support of the drug war? reasonable. Seizure and sale of private property during drug raids? Reasonable. Purchase of law enforcement gear with those funds? Reasonable. Cameras in public places in high crime areas? Reasonable. Body scanners at airports? Reasonable. How about police cruisers with license plate readers on the back. They drive around all day looking for revenue. Well, if you are up to date with your registration you have nothing to hide, right? Right? Right?

 

What we end up with is what we saw this past weekend. I've seen my fill of civil liberty violations in the name of safety.

 

If the public didn't want this stuff we wouldn't have it. Blame your fellow Americans. Checkpoints, cameras, body scanners, all things that these agencies really don't want to spend money on. But they do it because we expect them to be omniscient.

[Weave]

If the public didn't want this stuff we wouldn't have it. Blame your fellow Americans. Checkpoints, cameras, body scanners, all things that these agencies really don't want to spend money on. But they do it because we expect them to be omniscient.

 

Our system of legislation and checks and balances are supposed to protect us from tyranny of the majority. It's broken.

[K-9]

Jesus! I might have to leave this country. That is scary stuff.

 

No schit. What third world dictatorship could these images conjure up? Reminiscent of jackbooted brownshirts from decades past.

 

When politicians are calling for such radical reformation of our Constitution, the terrorists have already won. Game, set, match.

 

Just so long as I can get me a cheap, big screen HDTV, it's all good, I guess.

[darksabre]

 

 

Our system of legislation and checks and balances are supposed to protect us from tyranny of the majority. It's broken.

 

Tyranny of the majority?

[Taro T]

I suspect it's rather unpatriotic to complain about the methods used to capture a radical Islamic terrorist bomb suspect on the loose. I'm not surprised the number here that are treading lightly is great.

 

I'm sure it will/would be viewed as unpatriotic by some. Since when has the fear of how they'd appear ever held the ACLU back? Many of the ACLU's causes du jour I don't find myself getting behind, but there are a substantial # that I do. I'd've hoped this would be 1 that they and I were on the same side.

 

I think I'm being civil. And people can always have a civil conversation about people that aren't civil.

 

Apologies if my comments indicated that I didn't think you're being civil.

[Weave]

Tyranny of the majority?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

 

I'm sure it will/would be viewed as unpatriotic by some. Since when has the fear of how they'd appear ever held the ACLU back? Many of the ACLU's causes du jour I don't find myself getting behind, but there are a substantial # that I do. I'd've hoped this would be 1 that they and I were on the same side.

 

 

 

Apologies if my comments indicated that I didn't think you're being civil.

 

The ACLU tends to be inconsistent in their protection of civil lliberties IMO. I don't trust them to be a bellweather of what should/should not be something to get riled up about.