OT: Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[nfreeman]

Islam is at war with America + these boys were Muslim => These boys attacked America... is way too simplified.

 

The headline needs to be Islamic Terrorism strikes again. You are correct, it is important to relate this attack to all the others.

 

The investigation needs to go through all the factors that led to these boys deciding to act violently as opposed to the other 2.7 million American Muslims. Everything. It's not "too complex" but it sure as hell is more complex than the equation above. And if we want to stop more American Citizens from joining this evil, we need to know as much as possible.

 

We're past the headlines here, in this conversation. I can only speak for me, but I'm not denying the element that is our enemy. I want to know what factors create recruits for these people. I can't kill all the bad guys, so I'd like to know how they grow their ranks, so I can starve them off.

 

I agree with all of this.

[Stoner]

CNN has a story up right now quoting the uncle about some Armenian friend in the area up here who was a bad influence on the brothers. Watertown has a large Armenian population, there's even an Armenian museum right across the street from me. I know everything right now says they did it alone, but maybe they were seeking out that guy and that's what put them in Watertown.

 

Well, Armenia, there you go. Pshhh. Those bastards.

[LastPommerFan]

Well, Armenia, there you go. Pshhh. Those bastards.

 

Especially since the Armenians are 99.9% Catholic, which is the official National Church there.

[Stoner]

Doesn't the surviving suspect's American teenager lifestyle argue against the theory of a "radical Islam" motivation? If he hated our way of life, he did a good job disguising it.

[wjag]

Doesn't the surviving suspect's American teenager lifestyle argue against the theory of a "radical Islam" motivation? If he hated our way of life, he did a good job disguising it.

 

i think it is a smoke screen. It's convenient to blame the devil you know.

[bunomatic]

Especially since the Armenians are 99.9% Catholic, which is the official National Church there.

 

Well there you go. Those bloodthirsty Catholics have never gotten the credit they deserve.

[Eleven]

Well there you go. Those bloodthirsty Catholics have never gotten the credit they deserve.

 

Oh, Catholics have gotten every bit of "credit" deserved. We just haven't done anything violent in a while. Good thing, too.

[MattPie]

Oh, Catholics have gotten every bit of "credit" deserved. We just haven't done anything violent in a while. Good thing, too.

 

They're past their religious angst phase.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Especially since the Armenians are 99.9% Catholic, which is the official National Church there.

 

Yeah....and this one was Muslim......

 

So your 999 out of 1000 chance just bit the dust, and your 1 out of 1000 chance just hit.

 

Shocking......who could have ever taken those odds????

 

CNN has a story up right now quoting the uncle about some Armenian friend in the area up here who was a bad influence on the brothers. Watertown has a large Armenian population, there's even an Armenian museum right across the street from me. I know everything right now says they did it alone, but maybe they were seeking out that guy and that's what put them in Watertown.

 

After the attempted Times Square attack, they investigated things back to Watertown as well.

[LastPommerFan]

Yeah....and this one was Muslim......

 

So your 999 out of 1000 chance just bit the dust, and your 1 out of 1000 chance just hit.

 

Shocking......who could have ever taken those odds????

 

Just saw that he was a recent convert, according to uncle Ruslan (who should be put in charge of fighting terrorism, because he is awesome.) He didn't convert in Armenia. His being Armenian is irrelevant. If Uncle Ruslan's suggestion is correct (and again, he is awesome, so I assume it is) then we have a Catholic to Islam conversion that occurred in the united states and became violent. This is a fantastically scary new wrinkle to this whole global phenomenon. It makes sense, though, our nation's freedoms of speech, religion, and association are just about the perfect cocktail for breeding crazygroups, from KKK, to FLDS, to this.

[I am Defecting]

These boys made a big mistake, IMO. I don't know what went down, but to me, they were more self-radicalized than they were indoctrinated. It seems like they were intending to kill innocent civilians, however, which is not tolerated at all.

 

I contrast that to the fertilizer explosion in TX, which was far more catastrophic, but from that I've read, was an accident waiting to happen.

 

Stay Cool, and Go Sabres!

 

Definition of Terms (This dictionary lists definitions in order of perceived relevance, which has been preserved in transcription)(Definitions are debatable, as were all things in Babylon)

Living Webster, 1971.

 

Democracy - government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them or their elected agents; a state having such a form of government; in a restricted sense, a state in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them rather than by their elected representatives; a state of society characterized by nominal equality of rights and privileges; political or social equality; democratic spirit; the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power, (my etc).

 

 

 

Liberal - pertaining to the liberal arts; given generously and bountifully; not literal or strict as a translation; tolerant or open-minded, esp. in religious and political matters; one who is not constrained by orthodoxy or tradition; (often cap[italized]) a member of a reformist political party.

 

Religion - Recognition on the part of man of a controlling superhuman power entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship; the feling or the spiritual attitude of those recognizing such a controlling power, with the manifestation of such feeling in the conduct of life; the practice of sacred rites or observances; a particular system of faith in and worship of a Supreme Being or a god or gods; the state of life of the members of a religious order; a practice of devotion or conscientiousness, as: He has made a religion out of making money.

 

Atheism - The disbelief in the existence of God or Supreme Being.

 

Atheist - One who professes atheism or disbelief in God.

 

Agnostic - A person who disclaims any knowledge of God or of the origin of the universe or of anything but material phenomena, holding that with regard to such matters, nothing can be known; one who doubts or denies that ultimate knowledge in some area of study is possible; (my etc).

[nfreeman]

Doesn't the surviving suspect's American teenager lifestyle argue against the theory of a "radical Islam" motivation? If he hated our way of life, he did a good job disguising it.

i think it is a smoke screen. It's convenient to blame the devil you know.

 

But he said himself that they were motivated by Islam and a desire to strike back at America due to its mistreatment of Muslims.

[LGR4GM]

But he said himself that they were motivated by Islam and a desire to strike back at America due to its mistreatment of Muslims.

Yes because Muslims from anywhere blowing up more Americans is going to make us, as a culture, want to treat them better. Would like to note we should not stereotype a group of people, history has shown it is a flawed methodology with dire consequences.

 

To clarify I judge ppl on what they do and don't give a damn what their religion, ethnicity or any other external factor applies to them.

[LastPommerFan]

But he said himself that they were motivated by Islam and a desire to strike back at America due to its mistreatment of Muslims.

 

This is slightly, but IMO significantly, different than the "traditional" extremist motivation, primarily to destroy and convert us infidels.

[Stoner]

This is slightly, but IMO significantly, different than the "traditional" extremist motivation, primarily to destroy and convert us infidels.

 

Right. An American soldier who slaughters innocents in a village might say he did it to avenge what happened to his buddies. He's not necessarily on a Christian crusade.

[LGR4GM]

Right. An American soldier who slaughters innocents in a village might say he did it to avenge what happened to his buddies. He's not necessarily on a Christian crusade.

hell he could not even be christian

[LastPommerFan]

Right. An American soldier who slaughters innocents in a village might say he did it to avenge what happened to his buddies. He's not necessarily on a Christian crusade.

 

I don't know if these boys and al queda are as different as this. Your hypothetical is vengeance for friends, not in defense of religion. Maybe somewhere between "no difference" and your proposition.

 

______________________________________________________

 

I'm not alone in my craziness!: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/24/health/boxing-boston-bombing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

and: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/04/boxing-brain-damage-tsarnaev

 

I was first though.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I understand and accept that everyone has a right to their opinions and to express them.

 

I have often said in this thread that I welcome honest and upfront debate on this issue, especially the Islam aspect of this event.

 

The posts have been generally well thought out and presented in a reasonable fashion.

 

The conversation has drifted somewhat from time to time through the thread, but has generally been above reproach.

 

At some point last evening after I had signed off a drift happened again. Most posts were good and well intentioned to add to the discussion.

 

The two below were not and, IMO, crossed the line of civility.

 

I don't think the ultra-PC crowd and Islamic apologists will ever accept enough dots to make such an obvious connection.

 

The bottom line here is that the religion of Islam is most definitely not one of peace. Muhammad, through the Quran, made it quite clear that any non-believers were to be converted by the sword. These so-called "Islamic extremists" are just the ones with the balls to practice what is preached in their so-called "holy book."

 

As an atheist, I find all religions to be nutty. But as an objective observer of world affairs, it is apparent that one is currently far more dangerous than the others. The solution is quite complicated and nuanced and shouldn't involve invading every Muslim-majority country around the globe. But to deny or even downplay the actual problem - that Islam and Sharia law is a threat to Western civilization (Europe much more so than the US) - is foolish.

 

Actually, the solution isn't nuanced or complicated at all, but it is Final. You guys can use all perty words you want, but this is what you are talking about.

 

I am not a mod.

 

I do not want to not read this thread.

 

Both posters above are usually above reproach. SwampD is a regular. I am hoping his post was caused by a "heat of the moment" thing and hope he does not really believe that what he proposed, although, in a somewhat veiled delivery, the message came through clearly to me, is a real solution.

 

That said, I cannot accept the level of hatred in the above two posts.

 

And Billy. I converted to Islam. And no one, repeat NO ONE, held a sword up to my head.

 

My apologies to the mods and the board.

[SwampD]

I understand and accept that everyone has a right to their opinions and to express them.

 

I have often said in this thread that I welcome honest and upfront debate on this issue, especially the Islam aspect of this event.

 

The posts have been generally well thought out and presented in a reasonable fashion.

 

The conversation has drifted somewhat from time to time through the thread, but has generally been above reproach.

 

At some point last evening after I had signed off a drift happened again. Most posts were good and well intentioned to add to the discussion.

 

The two below were not and, IMO, crossed the line of civility.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a mod.

 

I do not want to not read this thread.

 

Both posters above are usually above reproach. SwampD is a regular. I am hoping his post was caused by a "heat of the moment" thing and hope he does not really believe that what he proposed, although, in a somewhat veiled delivery, the message came through clearly to me, is a real solution.

 

That said, I cannot accept the level of hatred in the above two posts.

 

And Billy. I converted to Islam. And no one, repeat NO ONE, held a sword up to my head.

 

My apologies to the mods and the board.

If you've read enough of my posts, you must know that I absolutely do not see this as a real solution. But when I read a number of times people talking of killing them before they kill us or taking the fight to them, or killing enough bulls so they don't want to enter the ring anymore, I have to believe that that is what they believe and I find it pretty offensive as well. I guess I'm just living in my PC fantasyland and am fooling myself.

[shrader]

Especially since the Armenians are 99.9% Catholic, which is the official National Church there.

 

So I'm guessing the Armenians and the Chechens don't get along too well? I don't know why else the uncle would mention it.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

If you've read enough of my posts, you must know that I absolutely do not see this as a real solution. But when I read a number of times people talking of killing them before they kill us or taking the fight to them, or killing enough bulls so they don't want to enter the ring anymore, I have to believe that that is what they believe and I find it pretty offensive as well. I guess I'm just living in my PC fantasyland and am fooling myself.

 

I had a lengthy reply ready that I pulled at the last second.......which is exact conundrum this poses for us all.

 

If we were sitting around a table in person I would be willing to share much more. There are plenty of intelligent people here that I respect, and in that regard I would like to say a few things to try and reach an understanding. In this day and age however, that isn't a wise choice to do so here. Which is too bad and part of the problem itself.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

If you've read enough of my posts, you must know that I absolutely do not see this as a real solution. But when I read a number of times people talking of killing them before they kill us or taking the fight to them, or killing enough bulls so they don't want to enter the ring anymore, I have to believe that that is what they believe and I find it pretty offensive as well. I guess I'm just living in my PC fantasyland and am fooling myself.

 

That is what I had hoped.

 

I do read most, if not all, of your posts.

 

My apologies, my friend.

[TrueBlueGED]

Oh, Catholics have gotten every bit of "credit" deserved. We just haven't done anything violent in a while. Good thing, too.

 

Maybe not violent in the blowing up civilians sense, but there was that not so little thing about allowing child molesting priests to remain priests.

[LTS]

I think people, in general, want things to fit into their world-view to confirm they know what's going on. I don't mean this in a negative way, just that people want reality to line up with what the believe and expect will happen. Large scale the desire that this be the work of an organized group that the powers that be can quantify and develop a strategy for is a comforting thought. The alternative is that two more or less American teens/20s cooked this up is more disturbing, since it'll undoubtedly be used as a good reason for the government to intrude into our lives more. Note that this has nothing to do with the party in charge, both of them would do it equally blatantly.

 

Also, I kinda can't believe those kids were as poorly planned after the event as they were. I mean, wouldn't you withdraw some cash from the ATM ahead of time so you didn't need to knock-off a 7-11? Kids these days.

 

As for self-radicalization, let's put this into a SabreSpace light: some guy is a Sabres fan, but not hardcore. He thinks Darcy sucks, but Lindy is great and Afinogenov could really skate. He signs up to Sabrespace during the 2007 run and starts reading the generally well-thought out posts, both negative and positive. The negative posts about Darcy strike a nerve. If the Darcy posts make sense, maybe the others by those authors do too. He keeps reading and reading and over time becomes a full-on Stormcloud. No one targetted him or pushed him directly, but his view has changed. (Obvs, I'm not actually equating the two groups, it just had to go one way or another). I'm guessing this is what happened to this kid. Gets angry about something US-related (Obama not helping the Chechnya rebels, etc.) and it spirals. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me at all.

 

I get that people want things to fit, but that's the problem. If you go into a situation thinking you know WHY something is the way it is then you'll be less likely to look at facts objectively and you'll seek the answers that fit your point of view. This is just how most people are but it's unfortunate.

 

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I don't want -- and I haven't read any posts in this thread that make me think anyone here wants -- any outcome in particular. It certainly doesn't make me feel any safer to know that we now have homegrown bloodthirsty Islamic militants living among us.

 

What I think is really important, though, is that people shouldn't kid themselves about who did this and why they did it. And saying "there's too many factors, it's too complex" or "maybe it was CTE" or "all religions have extremists" is just kidding oneself.

 

There are many ways in which wars are lost. One way to guarantee failure is to pretend that the war doesn't exist.

 

You clearly want these to be two kids who were putting forth the effort to spread the disease of religious extremism. I'm not arguing that they weren't Muslim and that they didn't somehow associate themselves with the terrorist movement from their point of view. However, it's a distinct difference for them to be acting out on their own accord rather than being part of an overall controlled attack directed from one of the primary factions.

 

If I were to go out tomorrow and commit an act of violence on behalf of some movement that I suddenly found myself believing in without any communication with that movement would you consider it part of the movement's actions? It's almost as absurd as people labeling the Tea Party as racist because of a few statements from some ignorant people who happen to also be part of the Tea Party. Some guy pretends he hears God's voice and that people must be cleansed and goes on a killing spree... who do we blame?

 

And I'm sorry, but it's far more complex than you want it to be. Clearly all Muslims of the world are not sitting around trying to kill all the people who do not agree with them. Why is that? So, to state that a religion is to blame is absurd. I'll be right there with you to proclaim that extremism is to blame.

 

Extremism prohibits a lack of rational thought. It's a bad situation to be in regardless of the subject matter. We see shades of that on this board every day when we discuss some aspects of the Sabres. The purposes behind extremism can be widespread and this will lead to all sorts of homegrown bloodthirsty militants living among us, Islamic or not.

[nfreeman]

 

If you've read enough of my posts, you must know that I absolutely do not see this as a real solution. But when I read a number of times people talking of killing them before they kill us or taking the fight to them, or killing enough bulls so they don't want to enter the ring anymore, I have to believe that that is what they believe and I find it pretty offensive as well. I guess I'm just living in my PC fantasyland and am fooling myself.

 

There is an enormous difference between winning a war and a final solution. I find the accusation that wanting the first means also wanting the second highly offensive and, as I previously posted, ridiculous.