Eleven Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 :thumbsup: Finally coming around to the fact Big Government, no growth, and opression of civil rights......is not the formula for a great country. Good for you! My guess is when they force your 401k and IRAs into treasuries.....you'll get your wish. Finally coming around? Me? And I have no idea what the second sentence is supposed to mean. I think I've said this before around here, but religions tend to have phases where they get all worked up. It's been what, 1200 years since Islam started to take hold. 1200 years after Christianity started off, it didn't look that different that where Islam is today. Now, before anyone gets upset, I'm basing this on the Crusades, stoning heretics, etc. I'm sure that if you started questioning beliefs in the 1300s, you'd be in pretty dip ######. I have said this before, too. But probably not around here.
TrueBlueGED Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 There's a part of the world that needs its Reformation, Renaissance, and Revolution all at once. And I hope it happens soon. But I'm assuming you know it won't. Hell, it took African Americans what, 200 years? To get real equal rights in the United States. My guess is it takes significantly longer for the MIddle east to undergo the changes most of us want to see. I'll probably be in the minority on this, but I don't think democracy is the answer over there...at least not yet. I'm with the poster formerly known as LPF in that some other large-scale changes need to take place first. Finally coming around? Me? And I have no idea what the second sentence is supposed to mean. We're becoming a communist state, duh.
Eleven Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 But I'm assuming you know it won't. Hell, it took African Americans what, 200 years? To get real equal rights in the United States. My guess is it takes significantly longer for the MIddle east to undergo the changes most of us want to see. I'll probably be in the minority on this, but I don't think democracy is the answer over there...at least not yet. I'm with the poster formerly known as LPF in that some other large-scale changes need to take place first. It's not that long ago that it was a nicer place to live. We're becoming a communist state, duh. Ah. Right.
nfreeman Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 But I'm assuming you know it won't. Hell, it took African Americans what, 200 years? To get real equal rights in the United States. My guess is it takes significantly longer for the MIddle east to undergo the changes most of us want to see. I'll probably be in the minority on this, but I don't think democracy is the answer over there...at least not yet. I'm with the poster formerly known as LPF in that some other large-scale changes need to take place first. I don't think it will take that long in most cases. Quite a bit has happened just in the last 3 years (similar to the falling of the Iron Curtain). Now, there is still a long way to go before, say, Egypt and Iraq achieve stable democracies with respect for minority rights -- and there will be plenty of bloody convulsions along the way -- but it is happening. The genie won't go back into the bottle. As for GCOE's theory about building institutions and liberal traditions before implementing a transition to democracy -- it sounds interesting and I'd love to see it in practice, but I'm skeptical that this will ever actually happen.
Stoner Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Some photos from the shootout http://www.getonhand...ootout-pictures Incredible reporting there. Take that, Diane Sawyer. Interesting that the police SUV got that close; where did the officer go? Was he the one shot? Also, hard to believe it took them so long to evacuate his house. Now the events make more sense. The surviving suspect drove right through the police. Why didn't he go the other way? And how didn't they shoot him on the way through. What a story.
LastPommerFan Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 There's a part of the world that needs its Reformation, Renaissance, and Revolution all at once. And I hope it happens soon. The Reformation (Where western religion lost it's temporal power) and the English Glorious Revolution (Where our democracy began in earnest, 1776 mostly just secured those rights for people in North America) were directly caused by the advent of the printing press. My hope is that the Internet is capable of sparking these events in modern nations.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Jihad means struggle and covers many things. To most (I hope) it means the spiritual struggle to live a life in accordance to God. So, jihad is a concept well known to Western Christians as well. They just call it 'walking with Christ' or something similar. The spiritual struggle to live a life of faith is certainly not a foreign idea to our culture. That said, jihad also has a lesser and more physical meaning, as in physical resistance against the enemies of Islam. Again, there is nothing foreign in this as it is well supported in our population as well that we have a right to struggle against our enemies. Our jihad here becomes 'war on terror' or something like that. I think the lack of understanding being referred to is the tendency to equate jihad with terrorism. I am sure the supporters of terrorism buy into the thinking that it's part of jihad and thus their holy duty to Islam, but I can also see how a more reasonable Muslim would feel that it is an incorrect use of the term. Most Muslims will say that terrorism is not part of jihad and that it is a crime against their religion. Thank you. As a Muslim, I could not have said it better myself. The only thing I will add is that the idea of Jihad being a "holy war, against non-believers" was started by a few bad people in the terrorist ranks. The western media then ran with it. If living a life in accordance to God means: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5) Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29). ...then I guess non-Muslims have a right to be a little on edge as of late. Because it seems that despite the marginal protestrations from Muslims about what Jihad is supposed to be, they are having no effect on what it seems to be. It only takes a small percentage of 2.1 billion to get the wrong idea. I'm not sure where you found that, but the original classical arabic of the Qur'an does not translate well. Also, one must take the revelations in context of time of revelation. When those ayat were revealed the young state of Islam was in a constant state of war and being constantly attacked.
LastPommerFan Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I don't think it will take that long in most cases. Quite a bit has happened just in the last 3 years (similar to the falling of the Iron Curtain). Now, there is still a long way to go before, say, Egypt and Iraq achieve stable democracies with respect for minority rights -- and there will be plenty of bloody convulsions along the way -- but it is happening. The genie won't go back into the bottle. As for GCOE's theory about building institutions and liberal traditions before implementing a transition to democracy -- it sounds interesting and I'd love to see it in practice, but I'm skeptical that this will ever actually happen. Our government is building schools for girls in Afghanistan. Our Universities educate dissidents from around the world. It was our social networks that helped along the protests in Egypt. It may or may not be our government that helps build these institutions, but we can do it, and they are prerequisite to true democracy and rule of law.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 You probably don't want to start a Holy Book poker game.......you going to get your 10 see'd, and raised 10,000....... I think SFNS is to be commended for even commenting on this thread at this juncture....he's always proven to be good hearted and stand-up. That's all you can ask out of anyone from any belief. Thanks, but none of the posts in this thread did I find the least bit questionable. Thoughts are established based on ones experiences, knowledge and background. No one attacked me personally and no one attacked my faith in a unreasonable manner, based on the facts I just stated. The discussion drifted somewhat, but all posters should be commended for not taking things too far. There is always that danger when the discussion moves to politics and / or religion. The fact that this thread drifted in the direction that it did is not surprising. This, the presidential politics and even the gun control thread are testimonials to the open-mindedness and civility of the members of this board. Generally speaking I find that posters who would have hyjacked these threads stayed away from them. People of all faiths have to question their faith critically. Most people of all faiths are taught from a very young age not to question their faith but to believe it without question. The brainwashing begins very early and continues through generations. Therein lies the problem with religion imo. I completely agree. Islam, real Islam, and my friends of different faith communities tell me the same thing about their faith's teachings ... we are to question everything about our faith specifically and about things in general. It's sad that I also have to agree with you that it doesn't really happen much.
... Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I'm not sure where you found that, but the original classical arabic of the Qur'an does not translate well. Also, one must take the revelations in context of time of revelation. When those ayat were revealed the young state of Islam was in a constant state of war and being constantly attacked. There are various translations of the Bible, too. Just like the Bible ostensibly gives you permission to beat your children, one has to understand the context, the history, and the intended application. The point on this is that, here, at least, I think we all "get it". You simply can not be absolutely literal in applying the words in any religious tome. However... Thank you. As a Muslim, I could not have said it better myself. The only thing I will add is that the idea of Jihad being a "holy war, against non-believers" was started by a few bad people in the terrorist ranks. The western media then ran with it. FWIW, the two distinctions of the meaning of Jihad are very well represented on the internets. I found that distinction in .4 seconds according to Google. For edumacated, reasonable peoples, discovering and understanding that distinction are fairly quick and easy to do. But, I would say a good percentage of the 2.1 billion Muslims do not have the advantage of being from edumacated and reasonable societies. I don't believe you can lay the "holy war" idea at the feet of the Western media - as much as I have no respect for the media, the media were introduced to the idea from the people they have covered over time, mainly in third world countries where they burn the American flag screaming "death to America!". Our Western media would love, especially these days, to overlook what they have seen and recorded, but, over time, the idea of Jihad as holy war has so saturated their reporting (over time) they can not escape it. I'm not saying it's correct, but I think that's just the way it is. To people who aren't critical thinkers (read: low-information voters) , Islam means terrorist like Christianity means child molesters.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Thanks, Sizzle. I did not lay the idea of Jihad being Holy War at the feet of the western media. In my post I said that it was started by a few terrorist types and that the western media ran with it.
TrueBlueGED Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I don't think it will take that long in most cases. Quite a bit has happened just in the last 3 years (similar to the falling of the Iron Curtain). Now, there is still a long way to go before, say, Egypt and Iraq achieve stable democracies with respect for minority rights -- and there will be plenty of bloody convulsions along the way -- but it is happening. The genie won't go back into the bottle. As for GCOE's theory about building institutions and liberal traditions before implementing a transition to democracy -- it sounds interesting and I'd love to see it in practice, but I'm skeptical that this will ever actually happen. I guess that's what I was trying to get at. I think it will be quite some time before we see democracy in the traditional western sense. For example, there's "democracy" in Russia, but I don't think many would consider it equivalent to the typical modernized western democracy.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Jesus.....AP Twitter just got hacked....said Obama injured after 2 explosions at WhiteHouse Dow dropped 200 points in 2 minutes then jumped right back..... WTF?
Eleven Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Jesus.....AP Twitter just got hacked....said Obama injured after 2 explosions at WhiteHouse Dow dropped 200 points in 2 minutes then jumped right back..... WTF? I think you answered your own question. The twitter account was hacked. I don't believe anything that I see on twitter until it's backed up. (I'm talking about serious stuff, not opinions on what hockey players might be traded.)
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I think you answered your own question. The twitter account was hacked. I don't believe anything that I see on twitter until it's backed up. (I'm talking about serious stuff, not opinions on what hockey players might be traded.) right....but the financial implications of it.....the markets ran with it and in literally seconds everyone was out.... Now we have Twitter running finance. Some people could have gotten stopped out of positions in a hurry......and now are left naked. Which is why i would never use stops these days. If you are JP Morgan, they'll cancel your trade.....Joe Blow....sorry...
wjag Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 right....but the financial implications of it.....the markets ran with it and in literally seconds everyone was out.... Now we have Twitter running finance. Some people could have gotten stopped out of positions in a hurry......and now are left naked. Which is why i would never use stops these days. If you are JP Morgan, they'll cancel your trade.....Joe Blow....sorry... Social media is having societal-wide impacts. The stock market isn't immune from it. If you are using stops, you are involved in a whole different level of gambling.
Eleven Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 For those interested in exploring the philosophical question of whether this is a terrorist attack: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/22/boston-marathon-terrorism-aurora-sandy-hook
nfreeman Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 For those interested in exploring the philosophical question of whether this is a terrorist attack: http://www.guardian....rora-sandy-hook Respectfully, reading liberal media psychobabble -- especially European purveyors thereof commenting on the philistine Americans -- isn't really exploring a philosophical question. The Guardian is left of Lenin. Today's editorials: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/us-edition "Transgender rights: the next big political movement" "The rightwing donors who fuel America's culture wars" "Only Anthony Weiner can succeed Michael Bloomberg as New York mayor" "Why is Boston 'terrorism' but not Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine?" "Terrorism's special dread for Muslims in the west" "My God, I would do anything to lick Obama's rectum" (I admit to making up one of the above.)
Eleven Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Respectfully, reading liberal media psychobabble -- especially European purveyors thereof commenting on the philistine Americans -- isn't really exploring a philosophical question. The Guardian is left of Lenin. Today's editorials: http://www.guardian....free/us-edition "Transgender rights: the next big political movement" "The rightwing donors who fuel America's culture wars" "Only Anthony Weiner can succeed Michael Bloomberg as New York mayor" "Why is Boston 'terrorism' but not Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine?" "Terrorism's special dread for Muslims in the west" "My God, I would do anything to lick Obama's rectum" (I admit to making up one of the above.) Yes, I know the Guardian leans pretty far to the left.
LTS Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 wanting "not the dictator" and truly understanding liberalism are not the same thing. Understanding that it is critical for your own wellbeing that the freedom of speech and religion be listed first among your rights is not as understood as it needs to be. Understanding that protecting your neighbor's right to worship his god or none at all, to insult your faith, and disparage your nation is critical to your own freedom. These are the things that make democracy and the rule of law work, and they are not inherently human, that's why it took 10,000 years of civilization for a group of people to right them down, live them through their government, and protect them with blood. Then, once the society is ready. Ready to fill vacuum with true democracy, and not trade one dictator from one faction for a dictator from another. Then force may be needed, and useful. True democracy? Let me know when you see it.. anywhere. So I am introduced to a new term by the media today, "self-radicalized". Not sure I understand this concept or believe it. in it's purest sense I suppose no one could be "self" anything. We are all acted upon by influences in this world. Perhaps the term means that after examining the country in which they were living and reading information about ideals that run contrary to that country they decided that they would take an action that they deemed appropriate. The interesting thing here is that we all so desperately want answers as though it can be summed up into some kind of Cliff's Notes for our consumption. The issues that drive such behavior go far deeper and are not explained in a few pages let alone a few paragraphs. This morning the discussion was that no external group was involved in their plans. Assuming this is the case it's not as though they were not exposed to violence at an early age. Their part of the world has been living with terrorist attacks for quite some time. Their time in Russia they would be exposed to such tactics and they would hear rhetoric from many sides involved. Assuming that the older brother became disenfranchised with the United States it's not a stretch to say that he drew upon his past influences to find a way to express his emotions. It doesn't have to be formally associated with any kind of terrorist movement to be influenced by it. At the same time this does not mean that it was anything more than a person who decided they would take to violence to express themselves against a particular society. GCoE brought up the question as to whether or not CTE could be a part of this. The debate that ensued missed the point in my opinion. CTE not being a scapegoat but a contributing factor as to the reason that a person who became disenfranchised with the United States might no longer listen to the rational side of their brain and instead resort to the violence that they had themselves experienced. If you were truly seeking to understand the situation the presence of CTE would be something that I would want to know about. Unless we want to claim that it has no relevance to violent or other similar behaviors I think it's warranted. If we question its link to mental disorder then we are no longer even in the realm of politics or belief systems but instead debating pure medical science. I've been reading this thread with curiosity, just to see where things end up. It seems that a lot of people want it to be some kind of religious extremism tied to known terrorist groups that have sworn the United States as an enemy. I'm not sure why anyone would want that to be the case, but it surely seems that some people want to jump to that conclusion. I can't say that I want that. I'd much rather that there be no connection or one based solely on misguided personal influence than some agenda of a terrorist organization.
LastPommerFan Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 True democracy? Let me know when you see it.. anywhere. absolutely, it's an ideal to be reached for, but rarely if ever attained.
TrueBlueGED Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 absolutely, it's an ideal to be reached for, but rarely if ever attained. I'd argue it's not even desirable to attain it.
Stoner Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 Cautionary tale? Ricin suspect released: http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/DA5RC8380
LastPommerFan Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I'd argue it's not even desirable to attain it. I imagine the argument would be heavily influenced by how we define democracy.
TrueBlueGED Posted April 23, 2013 Report Posted April 23, 2013 I imagine the argument would be heavily influenced by how we define democracy. Good point. When I think true democracy, I think direct democracy.
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