OT: Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[Eleven]

...Atlanta, OKC,...

 

not apples to oranges.

 

I agree--TOTALLY--but the post I was originally responding to was limited to the last 11 years.

[...]

Yes, and the first step is to promote liberalism (small l, 18th century type). In order for people to want their individual rights to matter, they first must believe that they actually do,

 

Sort of the opposite of what they're doing here with health care and the environment. That works.

[LastPommerFan]

 

 

Sort of the opposite of what they're doing here with health care and the environment. That works.

 

Baby steps. First we have to convince them that Individual freedom exists. Then we tell them that someone else's Freedom is causing them harm. ;-)

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

Wow, just wow back at you if that's all you got. How about cluing in everyone on how to stop it, as an alternative to the condescension.

 

=====

 

What part of "Jihad" are people here not understanding correctly?

 

Jihad means struggle and covers many things. To most (I hope) it means the spiritual struggle to live a life in accordance to God. So, jihad is a concept well known to Western Christians as well. They just call it 'walking with Christ' or something similar. The spiritual struggle to live a life of faith is certainly not a foreign idea to our culture.

 

That said, jihad also has a lesser and more physical meaning, as in physical resistance against the enemies of Islam. Again, there is nothing foreign in this as it is well supported in our population as well that we have a right to struggle against our enemies. Our jihad here becomes 'war on terror' or something like that.

 

I think the lack of understanding being referred to is the tendency to equate jihad with terrorism. I am sure the supporters of terrorism buy into the thinking that it's part of jihad and thus their holy duty to Islam, but I can also see how a more reasonable Muslim would feel that it is an incorrect use of the term. Most Muslims will say that terrorism is not part of jihad and that it is a crime against their religion.

[...]

Jihad means struggle and covers many things. To most (I hope) it means the spiritual struggle to live a life in accordance to God.

 

If living a life in accordance to God means:

 

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)

 

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).

 

...then I guess non-Muslims have a right to be a little on edge as of late. Because it seems that despite the marginal protestrations from Muslims about what Jihad is supposed to be, they are having no effect on what it seems to be. It only takes a small percentage of 2.1 billion to get the wrong idea.

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

I guess I invited the type of discussion that I utterly despise about this topic by foolishly expanding on what I understand jihad to mean and relate it to things in our own culture. I apologize to the board.

 

I will only reply that I have no interest in seeing the Quran arbitrarily quoted unless there is some sort of reasonable scholar interpretation associated with the quotes. I have spent enough time on the internet to know that there are suras that describe violence, and also to know where the non-discussion goes from there.

[LastPommerFan]

If living a life in accordance to God means:

 

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)

 

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).

 

...then I guess non-Muslims have a right to be a little on edge as of late. Because it seems that despite the marginal protestrations from Muslims about what Jihad is supposed to be, they are having no effect on what it seems to be. It only takes a small percentage of 2.1 billion to get the wrong idea.

 

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

[Randall Flagg]

I hate religion. All religion. So, so much.

 

Did anyone else hear about a bombing in Afghanistan killing civilians at a wedding on the same day? Forgive me if that has been discussed already.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

 

You probably don't want to start a Holy Book poker game.......you going to get your 10 see'd, and raised 10,000.......

 

I think SFNS is to be commended for even commenting on this thread at this juncture....he's always proven to be good hearted and stand-up. That's all you can ask out of anyone from any belief.

[LastPommerFan]

You probably don't want to start a Holy Book poker game.......you going to get your 10 see'd, and raised 10,000.......

 

I think SFNS is to be commended for even commenting on this thread at this juncture....he's always proven to be good hearted and stand-up. That's all you can ask out of anyone from any belief.

 

So the answer is end the religion?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

So the answer is end the religion?

 

Given the territory at this point, I am not going to jump into my bag of tricks. I have more respect for all the posters here than for Darcy Regier et al.

[LastPommerFan]

Given the territory at this point, I am not going to jump into my bag of tricks. I have more respect for all the posters here than for Darcy Regier et al.

 

Your right, this line of questioning wasn't going anywhere productive. Good call.

[nfreeman]

I guess I invited the type of discussion that I utterly despise about this topic by foolishly expanding on what I understand jihad to mean and relate it to things in our own culture. I apologize to the board.

 

I will only reply that I have no interest in seeing the Quran arbitrarily quoted unless there is some sort of reasonable scholar interpretation associated with the quotes. I have spent enough time on the internet to know that there are suras that describe violence, and also to know where the non-discussion goes from there.

 

It also must be said that there are plenty of death and destruction verses in both testaments (as GCOE ably points out).

 

The issue is not the literal meaning of a word, nor is it whose holy book is more violent. The issue is what people do.

[nfreeman]

 

 

Yes, and the first step is to promote liberalism (small l, 18th century type). In order for people to want their individual rights to matter, they first must believe that they actually do,

 

Most of those citizens already want this. They know what the rest of the world is like and what they are missing out on. The problem is that the ones with guns and power have no interest in giving those things up. Sometimes it takes force to pry the lid off the pressure cooker.

[bunomatic]

People of all faiths have to question their faith critically. Most people of all faiths are taught from a very young age not to question their faith but to believe it without question. The brainwashing begins very early and continues through generations. Therein lies the problem with religion imo.

[LastPommerFan]

Most of those citizens already want this. They know what the rest of the world is like and what they are missing out on. The problem is that the ones with guns and power have no interest in giving those things up. Sometimes it takes force to pry the lid off the pressure cooker.

 

wanting "not the dictator" and truly understanding liberalism are not the same thing. Understanding that it is critical for your own wellbeing that the freedom of speech and religion be listed first among your rights is not as understood as it needs to be. Understanding that protecting your neighbor's right to worship his god or none at all, to insult your faith, and disparage your nation is critical to your own freedom. These are the things that make democracy and the rule of law work, and they are not inherently human, that's why it took 10,000 years of civilization for a group of people to right them down, live them through their government, and protect them with blood.

 

Then, once the society is ready. Ready to fill vacuum with true democracy, and not trade one dictator from one faction for a dictator from another. Then force may be needed, and useful.

[...]

I guess I invited the type of discussion that I utterly despise about this topic by foolishly expanding on what I understand jihad to mean and relate it to things in our own culture. I apologize to the board.

 

I will only reply that I have no interest in seeing the Quran arbitrarily quoted unless there is some sort of reasonable scholar interpretation associated with the quotes. I have spent enough time on the internet to know that there are suras that describe violence, and also to know where the non-discussion goes from there.

Of the 2.1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many do you suppose are scholars? Just like Christian preachers, how many flawed or less-than-honorably motivated interpretations are put forth by Imams?

Religion has always been a way to manipulate the masses, and any such power...in a "liberal society"...eventually gets picked apart. Christians have, for decades now, had to learn to accept scrutiny and mockery of their religion, Muslims can't just shut the door on the same thing. Muslims, no more than Christians, shouldn't allowed to act like children with their hands over their ears yelling "yayayayay I can't hear you", or act sanctimonious as if they and their beliefs are beyond reproach. This is what is happening now, and that is the danger of Islam, if there is one over-arching danger.

Just like Jeremiah Wright should be hung out to dry by his good pal Barack Hussein Obama for saying stupid, hate mongering stuff like "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”, Saudi Arabia ought to be sanctioned for deeming homosexuality a crime worthy of the death penalty.

 

You may hear Iran mildly criticized for that, but definitely not the Saudis. So many reasons why this is true, but none of them worthwhile in the end.

 

For the record: Boston bomb suspect charged; religious motive seen

[SwampD]

 

 

Of the 2.1 billion Muslims worldwide, how many do you suppose are scholars? Just like Christian preachers, how many flawed or less-than-honorably motivated interpretations are put forth by Imams?

 

Religion has always been a way to manipulate the masses, and any such power...in a "liberal society"...eventually gets picked apart. Christians have, for decades now, had to learn to accept scrutiny and mockery of their religion, Muslims can't just shut the door on the same thing. Muslims, no more than Christians, shouldn't allowed to act like children with their hands over their ears yelling "yayayayay I can't hear you", or act sanctimonious as if they and their beliefs are beyond reproach. This is what is happening now, and that is the danger of Islam, if there is one over-arching danger.

 

Just like Jeremiah Wright should be hung out to dry by his good pal Barack Hussein Obama for saying stupid, hate mongering stuff like "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”, Saudi Arabia ought to be sanctioned for deeming homosexuality a crime worthy of the death penalty.

 

You may hear Iran mildly criticized for that, but definitely not the Saudis. So many reasons why this is true, but none of them worthwhile in the end.

 

For the record: Boston bomb suspect charged; religious motive seen

 

k

 

What's the point of all of this?

 

Oh, and thanks for pointing out the president's middle name. I had forgotten it.

[...]

k

 

What's the point of all of this?

 

 

This thread is for people who read more than the funnies. Try and keep up.

[SwampD]

This thread is for people who read more than the funnies. Try and keep up.

You didn't answer the question.

[wjag]

So I am introduced to a new term by the media today, "self-radicalized". Not sure I understand this concept or believe it.

[spndnchz]

Some photos from the shootout

 

http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures

[Eleven]

Most of those citizens already want this. They know what the rest of the world is like and what they are missing out on. The problem is that the ones with guns and power have no interest in giving those things up. Sometimes it takes force to pry the lid off the pressure cooker.

 

There's a part of the world that needs its Reformation, Renaissance, and Revolution all at once. And I hope it happens soon.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

There's a part of the world that needs its Reformation, Renaissance, and Revolution all at once. And I hope it happens soon.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Finally coming around to the fact Big Government, no growth, and opression of civil rights......is not the formula for a great country. Good for you!

 

My guess is when they force your 401k and IRAs into treasuries.....you'll get your wish.

[MattPie]

Religion has always been a way to manipulate the masses, and any such power...in a "liberal society"...eventually gets picked apart. Christians have, for decades now, had to learn to accept scrutiny and mockery of their religion, Muslims can't just shut the door on the same thing. Muslims, no more than Christians, shouldn't allowed to act like children with their hands over their ears yelling "yayayayay I can't hear you", or act sanctimonious as if they and their beliefs are beyond reproach. This is what is happening now, and that is the danger of Islam, if there is one over-arching danger.

 

I think I've said this before around here, but religions tend to have phases where they get all worked up. It's been what, 1200 years since Islam started to take hold. 1200 years after Christianity started off, it didn't look that different that where Islam is today. Now, before anyone gets upset, I'm basing this on the Crusades, stoning heretics, etc. I'm sure that if you started questioning beliefs in the 1300s, you'd be in pretty dip ######.

 

One of the more interesting, and sad, things I learned in Cambodia last month was the constant wars. Not the more recent ones, but the constant wars between the Hindus and Buddhists in the 1100s-1300s. Angkor Wat has been redesigned a number of times by armies. Started out Hindu, Buddhists took over and changed all the statues, Hindus invaded again, changed all the statues back, etc., etc.. It's just endemic of religion that it's going to be used to paint the "other guy" as horrible, sub-humans that need to be destroyed (or sometimes, converted and/or saved).