OT: Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[wjag]

Lanza doesn't have a host of buddies that went to training camp with him who are raring to duplicate his efforts.

 

Lone wolf, pack of wolves, same difference to me. We are talking about wolves. The outcome is what matters and the impact of said action. Terror is terror whether executed by single lunatics or a band of maniacs.

 

What follows is subjective, but I would submit Lanza did far more damage in the scheme of things. It still ends up being the same thing to me in my mind.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

There is no action or set of actions that the US could take that would cause it to stop.

 

Wow, just wow.

 

=====

 

I kindly suggest everyone look up the real meaning of the Arabic word Jihad. It doesn't mean what most people think it does. Unfortunately, it is often misinterpreted even by Arabic speakers.

[nfreeman]

It's not about stopping it. Public safety is always about mitigation.

 

No, but Wade Michael Page does.

 

Re: mitigation, my point was that as an international actor, there is no action the US could take that would stop these attacks. There is also no action the US could take that would mitigate these attacks. I suspect you were referring to your original point about concussion syndrome, but I don't think that changes my answer in the context of the marathon bombers.

 

Re: Wade Michael Page -- you are correct, and his group should be (as I suspect it already is) under heavy law enforcement scrutiny. Still, he and his ilk are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from militant Islamists. There are domestic-focused policies that reasonable people can discuss and debate on, from front-end solutions like better schools, day care, job opportunities, etc., to back-end solutions like gun control. None of those solutions is applicable to militant Islamists.

 

Lone wolf, pack of wolves, same difference to me. We are talking about wolves. The outcome is what matters and the impact of said action. Terror is terror whether executed by single lunatics or a band of maniacs.

 

What follows is subjective, but I would submit Lanza did far more damage in the scheme of things. It still ends up being the same thing to me in my mind.

 

Certainly the horror and loss of life are both terrible. I suppose the key difference is how to approach preventing the next one.

[X. Benedict]

He also wore a golf cap. Maybe all that time on the links led to him breathing in pesticides from our evil corporations thus rendering his thought process null?

 

I told you, the whole nanny state of this concussion thing in sports itself is out of control. Linking it to a terrorist attack was just a bit over the top. I'm all for thinking things out.....but yikes!

 

How is this part of the nanny state?

 

 

By all accounts there was a shift in the personality of Tamalan Tsarnaev. He went from a US Olympic hopeful to a bitter guy who shouted down speakers at sermons at local mosques. (he sounds like a delight)

 

If the guy was battling depression, or something else, why not see if there are a morbidity of factors in his profile?

I see no nanny in the question.

 

Generally speaking, the happy don't blow women and children up; it is the disaffected.

[LastPommerFan]

Re: mitigation, my point was that as an international actor, there is no action the US could take that would stop these attacks. There is also no action the US could take that would mitigate these attacks. I suspect you were referring to your original point about concussion syndrome, but I don't think that changes my answer in the context of the marathon bombers.

 

Re: Wade Michael Page -- you are correct, and his group should be (as I suspect it already is) under heavy law enforcement scrutiny. Still, he and his ilk are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from militant Islamists. There are domestic-focused policies that reasonable people can discuss and debate on, from front-end solutions like better schools, day care, job opportunities, etc., to back-end solutions like gun control. None of those solutions is applicable to militant Islamists.

 

The marathon bombers had been in the United States for years and both were educated here. One was a citizen. This is domestic terrorism, regardless of where the training came from.

 

We make policy decisions based on mitigating international threats all the time. Better schools, day care, job opportunities, etc. These things don't stop at the border, and they shouldn't. Our nations collective work against pandemics in Africa has done wonders to help protect us at home. Can you imagine the danger that would come out of the power vacuum created by 1/3 of the African population dying? We do the front end stuff all the time. We need to understand what works and do more. Foreign Aid isn't about helping other countries, it's about national defense.

[TrueBlueGED]

Re: mitigation, my point was that as an international actor, there is no action the US could take that would stop these attacks. There is also no action the US could take that would mitigate these attacks.

 

And yet, you advocate the continued use of military force.

[nfreeman]

Wow, just wow.

 

So you think it's just a matter of providing the right incentives, supporting the Muslim side in certain disputes, delivering the right amount of respect, etc., and then hundreds of millions of Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranians, Egyptians, Saudis, etc. will suddenly stop hating us?

 

Here's some reality: no US president will ever try as hard to accommodate the Muslim world as the current one did upon taking office. It got him (and us) exactly nowhere.

[LastPommerFan]

So you think it's just a matter of providing the right incentives, supporting the Muslim side in certain disputes, delivering the right amount of respect, etc., and then hundreds of millions of Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranians, Egyptians, Saudis, etc. will suddenly stop hating us?

 

Here's some reality: no US president will ever try as hard to accommodate the Muslim world as the current one did upon taking office. It got him (and us) exactly nowhere.

 

Hundreds of millions of these people don't hate us. Hundreds of millions of these people don't give two shits about us, they're too busy living their lives and struggling to raise their families.

[nfreeman]

And yet, you advocate the continued use of military force.

 

You are correct, but only in a narrow word-smithing context. What I should have said (which I suspect you knew) was that as an international actor, there is no action the US could take that would convince the perpetrators to decide that these attacks are morally wrong and should not be undertaken.

 

Hundreds of millions of these people don't hate us. Hundreds of millions of these people don't give two shits about us, they're too busy living their lives and struggling to raise their families.

 

There are over a billion Muslims in the world. At least 20% of them hate us -- and the actual percentage is probably much higher based on public opinion surveys in the Muslim world. Not enough to kill, but enough to justify, celebrate and/or not be troubled by those who do.

 

Remember: the vast majority of Muslims live in brutal dictatorships that advance anti-Western hatred as official government propaganda.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-arrested-after-rcmp-foil-alleged-terror-plot-to-derail-via-rail-train-1.1248858

 

Score one for the Mounties!

 

This should be fun to hear the followup conversation here given today's discussion.................

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

How is this part of the nanny state?

 

 

By all accounts there was a shift in the personality of Tamalan Tsarnaev. He went from a US Olympic hopeful to a bitter guy who shouted down speakers at sermons at local mosques. (he sounds like a delight)

 

If the guy was battling depression, or something else, why not see if there are a morbidity of factors in his profile?

I see no nanny in the question.

 

Generally speaking, the happy don't blow women and children up; it is the disaffected.

 

Did anyone mention the fact their mother is in jail for robbing a Lord & Taylor.....and the camera that spotted these guys just happened to be from Lord & Taylor?

 

That's some wild stuff!

 

There is so much to debate and so much to say.

 

Here's just as much of a theory, and these are the facts......the boxer was an elite prospect and was given the choice between fighting for the Russian and USA olympic program. He chose the USA. He was rejected from the final olympic team right around the time he supposedly became more standoffish. He then took a 6 month trip to Russia in the years directly after, and his final choice of a target was a major USA atheletic event sanctioned for the olympics.

 

Under this scenario.....we better keep an eye out for David Nelson outside of Bills games this September......

[...]

Wow, just wow.

 

=====

 

I kindly suggest everyone look up the real meaning of the Arabic word Jihad. It doesn't mean what most people think it does. Unfortunately, it is often misinterpreted even by Arabic speakers.

 

Wow, just wow back at you if that's all you got. How about cluing in everyone on how to stop it, as an alternative to the condescension.

 

=====

 

What part of "Jihad" are people here not understanding correctly?

[MattPie]

http://www.ctvnews.c...train-1.1248858

 

Score one for the Mounties!

 

This should be fun to hear the followup conversation here given today's discussion.................

 

Let's try to not paint these guys' religion with too broad a brush, there are plenty of good, peaceful Leafs and Canadiens fans.

[Eleven]

So you think it's just a matter of providing the right incentives, supporting the Muslim side in certain disputes, delivering the right amount of respect, etc., and then hundreds of millions of Pakistanis, Afghanis, Iranians, Egyptians, Saudis, etc. will suddenly stop hating us?

 

Here's some reality: no US president will ever try as hard to accommodate the Muslim world as the current one did upon taking office. It got him (and us) exactly nowhere.

 

I think the administration's support of the Arab Spring bought some political currency in some areas. And we still have no idea whether the Boston guys' actions had anything to do with their religion.

[nfreeman]

I think the administration's support of the Arab Spring bought some political currency in some areas. And we still have no idea whether the Boston guys' actions had anything to do with their religion.

 

The first statement is reasonable enough, as far as it goes. The 2nd is PC wishful thinking to the point of willful blindness.

[Eleven]

The first statement is reasonable enough, as far as it goes. The 2nd is PC wishful thinking to the point of willful blindness.

 

Of course it isn't. This very well could be motivated by nationalism rather than religion. Or something else entirely, although I'll concede that is unlikely.

[shrader]

Well this thread sucks now.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Well this thread sucks now.

 

#ShraderStrong

 

I always find fascinating the line of thinking of certain posters given the subject at hand. I don't want anyone going over the line here, that's for sure. I always get a kick out of how someone like PA and myself can look at a hockey team the same way, yet geopolitics from a whole different aspect.

[TrueBlueGED]

You are correct, but only in a narrow word-smithing context. What I should have said (which I suspect you knew) was that as an international actor, there is no action the US could take that would convince the perpetrators to decide that these attacks are morally wrong and should not be undertaken.

 

Actually, I really did think you meant there was nothing that could be done to mitigate attacks, hence my confusion. Granted, given your previous posts, I probably should have known what you meant. In any event, apologies for the misinterpretation.

 

Regarding whether we can actually influence the ideas which drive these actions, in the short term I would expect you are right: it's near impossible to drastically change deeply held, core beliefs of any kind. Over the long term, however, I do believe we could influence things through actions other than military use. I suspect we're going to have to peacefully disagree on this latter contention.

[Stoner]

#ShraderStrong

 

I always find fascinating the line of thinking of certain posters given the subject at hand. I don't want anyone going over the line here, that's for sure. I always get a kick out of how someone like PA and myself can look at a hockey team the same way, yet geopolitics from a whole different aspect.

 

All I am saying, is give Pysyk a chance.

[SwampD]

But a bunch of good ol' non-Muslim Americans succeeded in Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut ...

...Atlanta, OKC,...

 

not apples to oranges.

[nfreeman]

Actually, I really did think you meant there was nothing that could be done to mitigate attacks, hence my confusion. Granted, given your previous posts, I probably should have known what you meant. In any event, apologies for the misinterpretation.

 

Regarding whether we can actually influence the ideas which drive these actions, in the short term I would expect you are right: it's near impossible to drastically change deeply held, core beliefs of any kind. Over the long term, however, I do believe we could influence things through actions other than military use. I suspect we're going to have to peacefully disagree on this latter contention.

 

I think the only effective long-term solution is to promote democracy and the rule of law in Islamic nations. Everything else will flow from that. But it will take a long time and there will be plenty of failures along the way.

[SwampD]

I think the only effective long-term solution is to promote democracy and the rule of law in Islamic nations. Everything else will flow from that. But it will take a long time and there will be plenty of failures along the way.

I'm not saying it should change (because I really don't know), but we have US soldiers spread all around the world with bases filled with tanks and planes and guns and bombs on foreign soil. Could you imagine another country putting a military base in Alabama to make sure that their diesel shipments made it through? If that happened, I'll bet that there would be no lack of christians willing to blow themselves up to make a statement to Country X's oppressive policies.

[LastPommerFan]

I think the only effective long-term solution is to promote democracy and the rule of law in Islamic nations. Everything else will flow from that. But it will take a long time and there will be plenty of failures along the way.

 

Yes, and the first step is to promote liberalism (small l, 18th century type). In order for people to want their individual rights to matter, they first must believe that they actually do,

[...]

I'm not saying it should change (because I really don't know), but we have US soldiers spread all around the world with bases filled with tanks and planes and guns and bombs on foreign soil. Could you imagine another country putting a military base in Alabama to make sure that their diesel shipments made it through? If that happened, I'll bet that there would be no lack of christians willing to blow themselves up to make a statement to Country X's oppressive policies.

 

Would you like to be a citizen of a country where it was necessary for a world super power to set up a military installation in order to protect the goods they have purchased from native activities (whatever those are, or whom ever is doing it)?

 

I think the only effective long-term solution is to promote democracy and the rule of law in Islamic nations. Everything else will flow from that. But it will take a long time and there will be plenty of failures along the way.

 

We ought to set up public schools and colleges over seas. They could surely help alter the mindset in third world countries since they do such a good job of indoctrination here. Uhm, wait...I guess never mind.