Game of Thrones

[nfreeman]

I wasn't unhappy with the episode.  It wasn't as good as "Hardhome" but very few are, and overall I thought it was still pretty good. 

 

I thought the attack scene at the end was great.

 

As for why Jon didn't tell the group about what happened at Hardhome -- I think it was implied that he told them (which is why Ser Mallister said he had a good heart) although it wasn't shown. 

 

Also:  GFY, Stannis.  I can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Ramsey tears you to shreds.

[qwksndmonster]

 

Does the burning of shireen happen in the books as well ? if it didn't i really don't see the point of this happening.

 

She's also barely in the books.  In the show they characterized her so that they could do that.  That was the endgame for her character.

 

And why was Hizdahr (Lenny Kravtiz looking guy next to Dany) even in the show?  Did he do... anything?

[LGR4GM]

She's also barely in the books.  In the show they characterized her so that they could do that.  That was the endgame for her character.

 

And why was Hizdahr (Lenny Kravtiz looking guy next to Dany) even in the ###### show?  Did he do... anything?

He's quite adept at taking a mean sword to the chest. 

[qwksndmonster]

He's quite adept at taking a mean sword to the chest. 

He was the voice of the Meereenese people, and they implied heavily that he was the Harpy until, yeah.

[drnkirishone]

To the burning. GRRM has said minor changes have a ripple effect. I believe tonights episode was one of the cases. Kingsblood was needed and other characters have been marginalized or ommitted.

 

To the point about not meantioning what happened at hardhome. We don't know that he didn't. Maybe he sent messengers ahead. Maybe he is waiting to call a meeting after the wildlings are all thru.

[TrueBlueGED]

Amongst my friends I have definitely noticed a disconnect between those who are avid book fans and those who only watch the show. Long story short, the book readers are mostly pretty unhappy with the show and the show watchers are mostly happy with it.

 

As to last night, I really enjoyed the Jorah redemption arc coming full circle. The spear chuck was pretty awesome. I was also happy they managed to make Drogon totally badass without being invincible. Really looking forward to seeing the Meereen fallout. I think Hizdahr's purpose in the show was to demonstrate Dany's character growth. She's gone from being a girl used as a pawn to a woman willing to make the tough choices for the greater good.

 

Jon Snow not telling the others about what happened at Hardhome makes sense to me. The faction of the Watch that hates him won't believe or condone anything he has to say about it--they haven't yet, why would they start now? So why bother trying to inform a group whose minds are made up? I expect something with him and Sam and the revelation about Valyrian steel, but not much more.

 

Stannis...yikes. That was uncomfortable. But I do find it in line with his character and sense of duty to become king, doing whatever it takes to save the realm. And if next week's previews are any indication, it wasn't done for shock value, but to serve a purpose.

 

I felt Dorne was much better this week, helping to establish Doran's authority and long-view power play.

 

One thing I continue to dislike is Arya's story. I thought her sidetrack into the brothel to follow Trant (it was him, right?) was a waste of screen time. I felt her viewing his arrival was sufficient to keep her connected to Westeros and show she hadn't forgotten her list.

Also: GFY, Stannis. I can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Ramsey tears you to shreds.

No way. Stannis did it for a reason and clearly wasn't happy about it. Ramsay does what he does because he's a sadist, more or less, and enjoys it. While burning your child alive is undoubtedly worse than any individual action Ramsay had done, he's still by far the worse person.

[dudacek]

Didn't do it for me.

 

I thought the show did a terrible job of conveying the weight of Stannis' decision.

I didn't for a second feel like he had no other choice.

 

And the sudden appearance of the Harpies, the lack of security, and the whole Hizdahr is/isn't a traitor thing was lame as well.

[nfreeman]

No way. Stannis did it for a reason and clearly wasn't happy about it. Ramsay does what he does because he's a sadist, more or less, and enjoys it. While burning your child alive is undoubtedly worse than any individual action Ramsay had done, he's still by far the worse person.

 

Ramsay may or may not be the worse person, but Stannis deserves the Ramsay treatment for what he did.  When you have a child, you protect your child.  You take a bullet/sword/arrow for him/her if needed.  You don't sacrifice him/her in some voodoo ritual (after murdering your brother in a similar one, btw) because you want to be king. 

 

The right outcome is for Stannis to end up as one of Ramsay's gruesome victims and then for Brienne to take out Ramsay.  We probably won't get that, because Westeros, but I certainly don't give a crap about Stannis' reasons.

[qwksndmonster]

THIS POST HAS SPOILERS FOR THE EPISODE THAT AIRED ON 6/7

 

As to last night, I really enjoyed the Jorah redemption arc coming full circle. The spear chuck was pretty awesome. I was also happy they managed to make Drogon totally badass without being invincible. Really looking forward to seeing the Meereen fallout. I think Hizdahr's purpose in the show was to demonstrate Dany's character growth. She's gone from being a girl used as a pawn to a woman willing to make the tough choices for the greater good.

Jon Snow not telling the others about what happened at Hardhome makes sense to me. The faction of the Watch that hates him won't believe or condone anything he has to say about it--they haven't yet, why would they start now? So why bother trying to inform a group whose minds are made up? I expect something with him and Sam and the revelation about Valyrian steel, but not much more.

Jorah's "redemption arc" was kind of ruined after he saved Dany... When he touched her.  So your love for her is more important than possibly infecting her with a deadly affliction?  Nice one, J-bear.

 

As far as the Jon stuff goes, it's his duty as the LC of the NW to let his men know about the war against the White Walkers.  It's the only thing that matters. If his men are too busy nursing their old hatred of the wildlings, how do they have any hope in hell of fighting off the long night? The notion of "why bother to inform a group whose minds are made up?" makes sense when the group aren't men under your command.  Especially when you consider (ADWD spoiler)  (seriously spoiler) (show watchers don't read this)

 

Jon not communicating well with his men is what gets him stabbed several times.

 

 

 

Everything that bothered me about the Stannis situation:

 

-Ramsay and his 20 good men were said to be the ones who burned all of Stannis's supplies and siege engines.  This get's chalked up to their "knowledge of the land."  Does their knowledge of the land allow them to march through a blizzard super easily?  How did they know where all the vital goods were in Stannis's camp?  Why did all of the tents just start randomly catching flame?  Did Ramsay leave timed incendiary explosive devices there?  It makes more sense if it's Dr. Melly Dre who burned it all and blamed Ramsay, but not much more sense.

 

-Melisandre brings up the leeches/kings blood when she's trying to convince Stannis to burn Shireen.  Why didn't Stannis point out that the leeches only worked 2/3 times?  Sure, Joff and Robb died shortly after but Balon Greyjoy (Theon's dad) is still alive.  It's not that impressive that she was able to predict 2/3 kings dying when Stannis already knows that she sees the future in her flames sometimes, and is wrong just as often as she is right.  (This goes back to how terribly written Stannis was in seasons 2/3, when he was super subservient to Melly and did everything that he did at her behest.  Sure, in the books she has incredible influence with Stannis, but it's a delicate balance she has to strike.  She needed to prove to him that she had power to get him to listen to her, and even then he still did some things his own way.)  Melisandre also doesn't tell Stannis what burning Shireen will gain him, outside of a vague promise.

 

- After this one setback Stannis is ready to burn Shireen pretty much right away.  This is a man with an iron will who held Storm's End for 2 years while eating rats and shoe leather.  In the books, Stannis refuses to burn his prisoners while on the march to Winterfell.  He eventually lets up and throws the queen's men a bone by letting them burn men that were caught cannibalizing some already dead soldiers.  Also, Justin Massey asks Stannis what to do if he dies while he's gone (Stannis is sending him across the Narrow Sea to hire sellswords).  In response, Stannis says something like "Keep the fight going.  Do all you can to avenge me and seat my daughter on the iron throne, or die in the attempt."

 

-Stannis burns his daughter in front of his soldiers.  Why would the greatest military mind in Westeros do this?  Your men have to have faith in their commander, to hold their own and be ready to die for you at a moments notice.  Showing them that you care so little for your daughter that you would burn her is only going to sew discord in the ranks.  Nobody wants to die for a man that does that.

 

-Selyse and Stannis had character reversal syndrome during the burning.   you show, making Selyse Florent look like a better person than the Mannis.

Ramsay may or may not be the worse person, but Stannis deserves the Ramsay treatment for what he did.  When you have a child, you protect your child.  You take a bullet/sword/arrow for him/her if needed.  You don't sacrifice him/her in some voodoo ritual (after murdering your brother in a similar one, btw) because you want to be king. 

 

The right outcome is for Stannis to end up as one of Ramsay's gruesome victims and then for Brienne to take out Ramsay.  We probably won't get that, because Westeros, but I certainly don't give a crap about Stannis' reasons.

To be fair, Stannis killed Renly because he viewed him as a traitor to his cause.  Renly naming himself king when Stannis is his elder and the rightful heir was really messed up.  That doesn't excuse what Stannis did, but it was wayyyyyyyyyy different from the whole Shireen situation.  I agree with you that I care not a fig about show Stannis now.  He can die under the Dreadfort for all I care.

[TrueBlueGED]

Ramsay may or may not be the worse person, but Stannis deserves the Ramsay treatment for what he did. When you have a child, you protect your child. You take a bullet/sword/arrow for him/her if needed. You don't sacrifice him/her in some voodoo ritual (after murdering your brother in a similar one, btw) because you want to be king.

 

The right outcome is for Stannis to end up as one of Ramsay's gruesome victims and then for Brienne to take out Ramsay. We probably won't get that, because Westeros, but I certainly don't give a crap about Stannis' reasons.

He wants to be king to save the realm from the walkers, and he's totally bought Mel's BS that he's the only one who can do it. I'm gonna put this in a spoiler tag because I can't remember how extensively it was covered on the show, but I think it's safe to read (it's back story, not a real spoiler) :

 

 

A huge piece of the Azor Ahai prophecy/legend is the murder of family to save the realm.

 

[qwksndmonster]

Azor Ahai didn't murder his family. His wife Nissa Nissa offered herself as a willing sacrifice.  And that was to forge Lightbringer, the ultimate weapon against the WW, not to help him defeat Ramsay Bolton.

 

And Stannis wants to be king, but a large part of that is because he feels it's his duty.  The show has a definite tone of "Stannis has throne greed."

Edited June 8, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[LGR4GM]

I view the show and the book differently, or at least try to, and I have to say that the show this season has just been lazy as in the way it was written and the way it was shot/blocked out. We are finally starting to see some things towards the end but the show really fought hard this year to tread water while George RR Martin finishes the 6th book.  I think his lack of involvement and the show having to begin to invent storylines really affected things this year.

[Huckleberry]

I view the show and the book differently, or at least try to, and I have to say that the show this season has just been lazy as in the way it was written and the way it was shot/blocked out. We are finally starting to see some things towards the end but the show really fought hard this year to tread water while George RR Martin finishes the 6th book.  I think his lack of involvement and the show having to begin to invent storylines really affected things this year.

 

Its turning to crap :p

[TrueBlueGED]

Azor Ahai didn't murder his family. His wife Nissa Nissa offered herself as a willing sacrifice. And that was to forge Lightbringer, the ultimate weapon against the WW, not to help him defeat Ramsay Bolton.

 

And Stannis wants to be king, but a large part of that is because he feels it's his duty. The show has a definite tone of "Stannis has throne greed."

"Willing sacrifice" is just semantics. He still killed her to save the realm. Shireen also wanted to help, although she obviously didn't anticipate what that would mean. I'm not defending Stannis writ large, but he's not even close to the same level as Ramsay. Burning your child is about as bad as it gets, but there are less noble goals than defeating the white walkers. And sorry, but saying he did it to defeat Ramsay is over simplifying it because you know as well as I do it's necessary to get to the ultimate end game.

 

I honestly don't get the impression Stannis wants the throne in the same way that most do (political ambition and power). He just is steadfast that it's his right, and separately, he needs its power to defeat the walkers. I think he'd have been perfectly happy to just get Storm's End back if it weren't for the succession order.

I view the show and the book differently, or at least try to, and I have to say that the show this season has just been lazy as in the way it was written and the way it was shot/blocked out. We are finally starting to see some things towards the end but the show really fought hard this year to tread water while George RR Martin finishes the 6th book. I think his lack of involvement and the show having to begin to invent storylines really affected things this year.

How much was he ever truly involved? My understanding is the only change this year is he declined to write one episode, where in past seasons he has.

 

I could easily argue the quality of the show has declined right alongside the source material. Books 4 & 5 are pretty universally thought to be inferior to 1-3, and low and behold, many find the seasons based on that material to be of lesser quality. Shocking.

Edited June 8, 2015 by TrueBluePhD

[Hoss]

I wasn't unhappy with the episode. It wasn't as good as "Hardhome" but very few are, and overall I thought it was still pretty good.

 

I thought the attack scene at the end was great.

 

As for why Jon didn't tell the group about what happened at Hardhome -- I think it was implied that he told them (which is why Ser Mallister said he had a good heart) although it wasn't shown.

 

Also: GFY, Stannis. I can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Ramsey tears you to shreds.

Eggzactly. I thought it was fine. The child burning was nothing offensive... These are fictional medieval times so there's going to be moments like that. And I hope he pays deadly for it.

I would say it was a solid episode.

[qwksndmonster]

"Willing sacrifice" is just semantics. He still killed her to save the realm. Shireen also wanted to help, although she obviously didn't anticipate what that would mean. I'm not defending Stannis writ large, but he's not even close to the same level as Ramsay. Burning your child is about as bad as it gets, but there are less noble goals than defeating the white walkers. And sorry, but saying he did it to defeat Ramsay is over simplifying it because you know as well as I do it's necessary to get to the ultimate end game.

 

I honestly don't get the impression Stannis wants the throne in the same way that most do (political ambition and power). He just is steadfast that it's his right, and separately, he needs its power to defeat the walkers. I think he'd have been perfectly happy to just get Storm's End back if it weren't for the succession order.

I do appreciate the Stannis=Azor Ahai POV that you have on the scene. But deep down my huge issue is that book Stannis is one of my favorite characters, and show Stannis really sucks.  Most of my anger has to do with how they portrayed the choice, whereas you're coming from a more bird's eye big picture story sense.  I'm mad that Ramsay was a major contributing factor in bringing Stannis to his so called "lowest point."

 

The question of how much Stannis wants the throne is an interesting one.  Stannis would tell us that it's merely his duty.  He never wanted the iron throne, but the cup passed to him and it's his duty to drink from it.  In a deeper sense, I think he desires everything his older brother had and that's part of the reason he's so relentless.

 

I could easily argue the quality of the show has declined right alongside the source material. Books 4 & 5 are pretty universally thought to be inferior to 1-3, and low and behold, many find the seasons based on that material to be of lesser quality. Shocking.

You know where I stand on this  :P  And I think you're wrong about 4 & 5 being universally thought of that way.  My read on the fandom (which I am obviously a very active member in if this is how hard I post on a hockey board about the books) is that most people would tell you that 5 is their favorite.  Closely followed by the people who hold 3 as their favorite.  Of course, in those parts most people probably have at least 1 reread under their belt.  I think 2 is my favorite, but it's hard to say because I love them all.

Edited June 8, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[Hoss]

I can't be the only one that thinks they're dropping further hints at a certain theory with the Targaryen comment made by Ellaria, right?

[Hoss]

Also, I just rematches the episode and I changed my mind. I think this episode was fantastic. I disagree with the notion that the pit scene was poorly done or that it was hard to understand why things were happening.

 

 

Sure, her taking forever to get on a dragon that was getting spears hurled at it was unrealistic... But so is a dragon.

The burning of the girl was to be expected and not poorly done aside from the way they didn't make it clear where her parents were standing until he mother ran toward her.

 

[qwksndmonster]

Also, I just rematches the episode and I changed my mind. I think this episode was fantastic. I disagree with the notion that the pit scene was poorly done or that it was hard to understand why things were happening.

 

 

Sure, her taking forever to get on a dragon that was getting spears hurled at it was unrealistic... But so is a ###### dragon.

The burning of the girl was to be expected and not poorly done aside from the way they didn't make it clear where her parents were standing until he mother ran toward her.

 

This is an analysis of the Daznak's pit scene in Season 5 Episode 9

 

I'm glad you liked it. That scene had no depth for me.  It ended up as a touching moment between a mother and her dragon.  In the middle of a "fight."  The action was just not consistent whatsoever.  After the spear throw, I didn't once fear for Dany's life.  When I saw the Sons of the Harpy killing Meereenese people I just didn't understand why. Why send a single assassin at the queen, but then seconds later forget about the queen and just start murdering innocents?  Only one guy attacks Dany's little pavilion at a time.  The only time there's more than one, it's so two of them can hold Hizdahr while another one stabs.  And then they just disappear.  Action over, no longer important to the scene, poof.  It also sticks in my craw that they had to remind people that Tyrion's manly and he saves Missandei from an assailant.  Why not have abs of steel be struggling for the dagger against the attacker and tyrion gives him a knife in the back of the leg?  LET THE WOMEN ON THIS SHOW DO SOMETHING.

 

 The Harpy's ultimate goal is to make Dany leave Meereen, dragged out or otherwise.  I don't see these masked rioters who obviously don't know how to fight knights/handsome badasses as dangerous.  If they really wanted to hurt Dany, they would've had a bunch of crossbows or spear throwers of their own constantly shooting at her.  What would her ~8 person guard do then?

 

When Dany gets surrounded in the middle of the pit, what results is a silly looking game of cat and mouse where the masked weirdos do a circle dance around them like it's a video game and send in one mook at a time to get flashily destroyed by our sexy heroes.  Then...

 

As far as the Drogon stuff goes, it started out awesome.  He came down spewing death on these mooks, fryin' 'em up and chompin' 'em down.  He also comes to this scene as a deus ex machina, saving Dany from the danger... and then just sits there for a full minute letting the spear throwers hit him.  Drogon has them backed against the wall, and is having trouble with the spear throwers.  Then, NOTHING IS DONE TO STOP THE MEN WHO ARE THROWING SPEARS!  Dany calls to him, and then walks over and they have a moment in the middle of a battle.  During this moment, there are no men in the background trying to attack.  All the SotH that Drogon had cornered either ran away or are standing at a different angle.  Their incredibly long moment is then interrupted by a single spear hitting Drogon.  As the action resumes, the cornered SotH are once again shown on screen.  They really were standing at a different angle of the camera. Lazy.  

 

As the final resolution of this action, Dany slowly climbs on to Drogon's back and tells him to fly.  The spear throwers watch in awe.  So much awe that they disappear from the frame again and Dany's friends are allowed to watch, along with the viewer as Dany flies away.  The entire scene wasn't written from the ground up.  It was written with the set pieces in mind (fighting pits, Harpies, Dragon) and the writers didn't bother to try to connect any of those things.

 

My main problem with this scene is that Dany doesn't do anything proactive, except call to Drogon.  This scene is all about Fire and Blood!  The Dragon queen should be shining!  She should be displaying the effect that her time in Meereen had on her. Where's the character growth?  Without it, what's the point? (continued in the next spoiler tag, which is for ADWD (5th book))

 

 

 

ADWD (the book) spoiler

 

 

In the books, Dany is seething with anger that the pits were allowed to be opened.  An attempt on her life is made in the form of poisoned locusts, which Strong Belwas eats.  Belwas feels the effects of the poison right as Drogon swoops down into the pit.  Plots weaved with plots, enabled by Dany's forbearance as queen of Meereen, come to a head as Dany's anger in some way warg-calls out to her largest child.  Sick and tired of giving up the things she wants and loves to be queen (Dragons, Daario, Westeros, Dorne), Dany leaps into the pit with a whip and tames her wild child.  Fearless, she leaps onto the back of this monster that can't decide to listen to her or try to eat her.  She then flies out of the pits, safe from the strange city that she tried so hard to bring peace to.

 

 

 

Now THAT'S a Fire and Blood ###### yeah moment for the Dragon Queen.  She's not just holding her friend's hand in hopes of some sort of rescue.  Blech.  They're wasting Clarke's obvious talent for intense and angry scenes.

Edited June 9, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[Hoss]

It seems as though those that didn't read the books are able to enjoy the show. Far less expectations and far less analyzation of every sequence. Of course a lot isn't going to make sense... It's a television show about medieval times when dragons roamed the earth along with humans (remember that?).

[qwksndmonster]

It seems as though those that didn't read the books are able to enjoy the show. Far less expectations and far less analyzation of every sequence. Of course a lot isn't going to make sense... It's a television show about medieval times when dragons roamed the earth along with humans (remember that?).

The scene bothered me a lot both thematically and in a technical film making sense.  I don't begrudge anyone their enjoyment of the show.  I enjoy it by loving all the good stuff (ESPECIALLY the casting/acting. wowza), and nitpicking everything.   :)

 

And book readers aren't the only ones who constantly analyze.  I have a few shownly friends who hate the action scenes even more than me.

[Hoss]

The scene bothered me a lot both thematically and in a technical film making sense. I don't begrudge anyone their enjoyment of the show. I enjoy it by loving all the good stuff (ESPECIALLY the casting/acting. wowza), and nitpicking everything. :)

 

And book readers aren't the only ones who constantly analyze. I have a few shownly friends who hate the action scenes even more than me.

I hate a lot of the action scenes, as well. I thought this one was poorly done but still enjoyed it. It's a series of one-hour movies so I can't really get upset when something isn't too well done.

[sabills]

It seems as though those that didn't read the books are able to enjoy the show. Far less expectations and far less analyzation of every sequence. Of course a lot isn't going to make sense... It's a television show about medieval times when dragons roamed the earth along with humans (remember that?).

Thats kind of a weak argument though. A show doesn't have to make real world sense, but it should make sense within the context of the show itself. That's like saying Star Wars Episode I isn't a bad movie just because it has laser swords. Good writing is good, bad writing is bad, no matter the environment.

 

That being said, while I haven't LOVED this season, I've been fine with it. As a book reader, I've started doing a better job of separating it from the books mentally, at least partially because it has separated itself so much. 

 

Opinion on S5E9 scene below:

 

That scene with Shireen screaming, wow, worst moment of the series for me so far. I mean that it was so well done and well acted it was tough to watch.

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by sabills

[qwksndmonster]

Also, I just rematches the episode and I changed my mind. I think this episode was fantastic. I disagree with the notion that the pit scene was poorly done or that it was hard to understand why things were happening.

 

 

Sure, her taking forever to get on a dragon that was getting spears hurled at it was unrealistic... But so is a ###### dragon.

The burning of the girl was to be expected and not poorly done aside from the way they didn't make it clear where her parents were standing until he mother ran toward her.

 

I hate a lot of the action scenes, as well. I thought this one was poorly done but still enjoyed it. It's a series of one-hour movies so I can't really get upset when something isn't too well done.

Oh?

[Tony P]

I decided to checkout the latest teaser chapter of WoW released by GRRM and something hit me as I read the first couple of paragraphs: In the HBO series, Sansa's marriage to Ramsey is not legal. "Why?" you may ask? Because she is still married to Tyrion (Unless I missed the divorce somewhere).

 

Was this fact overlooked by fans due to the outrage over Sansa's wedding night? I can't believe that the showrunners simply overlooked this.

 

Also, is my avatar upside down? On my PC it's fine but on my iPad it's upside down.

 

Thanks!

Edited June 10, 2015 by Tony P