Game of Thrones

[WildCard]

Yeah was thinking the same thing, don't know if that is how its written in the books though.

Guess its setting up Theon Greyjoy but still.

Never happened in the books

[qwksndmonster]

Let's have a scene where

(episode 6 spoiler)

Sansa get's raped.  And then let's make it about Theon.

 

 

Tone deaf.  Offensive.  Moronic.  The writers are out of their depth.  Without GRRM's work to lean on the show's just going to get worse and worse.

Edited May 18, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[LastPommerFan]

Have not seen an episode of the show, but just read a few synopses of the recent episodes. 

 

GRRM for being a slow douche.

 

HBO for not waiting to cash in.

 

The show has become significantly non-canonical and I have lost all interest in ever watching it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except for the boobs.

[TrueBlueGED]

Let's have a scene where

(episode 6 spoiler)

Sansa get's raped.  And then let's make it about Theon.

 

 

Tone deaf.  Offensive.  Moronic.  The writers are out of their depth.  Without GRRM's work to lean on the show's just going to get worse and worse.

 

In fairness to the writers, Martin himself has seemed out of his depth for the past two books.

[qwksndmonster]

In fairness to the writers, Martin himself has seemed out of his depth for the past two books.

As someone who has read the books in their entirety 3+ times, I disagree so hard. Feast and Dance are amazing. They're much more about worldbuilding and new characters than the plot from the first 3. I can understand that people have problems with that kind of story structure, and I'd even admit that gurm needs a better editor.

 

But out of his depth? Hah. You know nothing TrueBlue.

[WildCard]

As someone who has read the books in their entirety 3+ times, I disagree so hard. Feast and Dance are amazing. They're much more about worldbuilding and new characters than the plot from the first 3. I can understand that people have problems with that kind of story structure, and I'd even admit that gurm needs a better editor.

 

But out of his depth? Hah. You know nothing TrueBlue.

Qwk, you seem a pretty avid book/fantasy reader. If that's true, I can't recommend the series 'Malazan: Book of the Fallen' enough. I've read all of ASOIF, and I thought it was an amazing series, but Malazan just has more...depth, and in some aspects, more surprise. The author really makes an incredible, one of a kind world, and the history and characters he has in it are second to none.

 

Oh, and the characters are so much more badass than ASOIF. And Eirksson (author) always has his biggest, most bad characters square off in the best battles. Read it, trust me. 

As for ASOIF, Dance was an incredible book. When

 

 

Tyrion is on the boat and discovers another Targaryan?? His chapters on that river were my favorite. And the Iron Islands guy (forgot his name) sending an embassy to Daenerys is completely forgone in the shows.

 

 

IMO, they had perfection in those books, and, from what I've seen/heard, they tried too much to spice it up. 

[qwksndmonster]

I'm intrigued, WC.  It's on the list.  Malazan.

[Huckleberry]

One of the reasons im not reading the books at the moment, colleague of mine is as pissed of as you by that last scene.

Said he can handle that they strayed away from the books now and then but that last scene pissed him off.   was completely uncalled for and out of character.

 

As someone who has read the books in their entirety 3+ times, I disagree so hard. Feast and Dance are amazing. They're much more about worldbuilding and new characters than the plot from the first 3. I can understand that people have problems with that kind of story structure, and I'd even admit that gurm needs a better editor.

But out of his depth? Hah. You know nothing TrueBlue.

[WildCard]

I'm intrigued, WC.  It's on the list.  Malazan.

Good to hear. Do yourself and check out the reviews. It is consistently rated the the second best if not the best fantasy series out there; ASOIF usually eclipses it but IMO a ton of that is because of the shows popularity getting people to try the books. 

[LGR4GM]

Qwk, you seem a pretty avid book/fantasy reader. If that's true, I can't recommend the series 'Malazan: Book of the Fallen' enough. I've read all of ASOIF, and I thought it was an amazing series, but Malazan just has more...depth, and in some aspects, more surprise. The author really makes an incredible, one of a kind world, and the history and characters he has in it are second to none.

 

Oh, and the characters are so much more badass than ASOIF. And Eirksson (author) always has his biggest, most bad characters square off in the best battles. Read it, trust me. 

As for ASOIF, Dance was an incredible book. When

 

 

Tyrion is on the boat and discovers another Targaryan?? His chapters on that river were my favorite. And the Iron Islands guy (forgot his name) sending an embassy to Daenerys is completely forgone in the shows.

 

 

IMO, they had perfection in those books, and, from what I've seen/heard, they tried too much to spice it up. 

Victarion Greyjoy

So Malazan: Book of the Fallen, just start with book 1 and go? Gardens of the Moon I believe.  Are all the books connected or is each one its own stand alone within the confines of the same world?

 

I really needed something for this summer.  I have grown lazy and haven't ventured out to find a good new book.

One of the reasons im not reading the books at the moment, colleague of mine is as pissed of as you by that last scene.

Said he can handle that they strayed away from the books now and then but that last scene pissed him off.   was completely uncalled for and out of character.

Pretty much everyone is with you.  This is funny though http://imgur.com/a/miuUG

 

That said I found out last night that only Episodes 9 and 10 will be directed by someone who has directed GoT in previously.  I know that Martin was pretty much not involved this season because he is trying to finish Book 6 for next year.  I only hope they get their s#!t together because the SandSnakes storyline was more half assed than freshmen's 10page research paper that they started the night before. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Victarion Greyjoy

So Malazan: Book of the Fallen, just start with book 1 and go? Gardens of the Moon I believe.  Are all the books connected or is each one its own stand alone within the confines of the same world?

 

I really needed something for this summer.  I have grown lazy and haven't ventured out to find a good new book.

Good man :beer: 

 

They're all connected so yep, just Start with GoM and go. I'm on book 4 right now, book 3 was one of the best books I've ever read. 

[Samson's Flow]

Victarion Greyjoy

So Malazan: Book of the Fallen, just start with book 1 and go? Gardens of the Moon I believe.  Are all the books connected or is each one its own stand alone within the confines of the same world?

 

I really needed something for this summer.  I have grown lazy and haven't ventured out to find a good new book.

Pretty much everyone is with you.  This is funny though http://imgur.com/a/miuUG

 

That said I found out last night that only Episodes 9 and 10 will be directed by someone who has directed GoT in previously.  I know that Martin was pretty much not involved this season because he is trying to finish Book 6 for next year.  I only hope they get their s#!t together because the SandSnakes storyline was more half assed than freshmen's 10page research paper that they started the night before. 

This season's episodes definitely have a much different feel, and I am not entirely convinced this is for the better. The episode structure seems to meander and do nothing until the last 5 mins of each episode, which is annoyingly cable drama-esque. That coupled with the majority of the off-book scenes being horribly mis-managed, and I am slowly losing faith in the show.

 

There were ways to prove/show that Ramsay Bolton is a sick dude without the inferred rape scene. That was uncalled for and done purely for shock value.

[LGR4GM]

Good man :beer:

 

They're all connected so yep, just Start with GoM and go. I'm on book 4 right now, book 3 was one of the best books I've ever read. 

Thanks I am ordering from Amazon right now.  

This season's episodes definitely have a much different feel, and I am not entirely convinced this is for the better. The episode structure seems to meander and do nothing until the last 5 mins of each episode, which is annoyingly cable drama-esque. That coupled with the majority of the off-book scenes being horribly mis-managed, and I am slowly losing faith in the show.

 

There were ways to prove/show that Ramsay Bolton is a sick dude without the inferred rape scene. That was uncalled for and done purely for shock value.

It feels like they are trying to use the shock factor.  It isn't shocking.  Also why is Jamie still facing the struggle of his hand but these girls get raped and just carry on... the hell is going on there?  Sansa could have learned from Little Finger and just seduced Ramsay, like matched his Sociopath tendency with some of her own. They could have just elevated her and it would have made perfect sense.  She could have been like, I am a virgin but I control myself now.  Instead we got that crap. 

 

Sorry /endrant... the ROR thread is making me a little neurotic  :lol:

[Samson's Flow]

Thanks I am ordering from Amazon right now.  

It feels like they are trying to use the shock factor.  It isn't shocking.  Also why is Jamie still facing the struggle of his hand but these girls get raped and just carry on... the hell is going on there?  Sansa could have learned from Little Finger and just seduced Ramsay, like matched his Sociopath tendency with some of her own. They could have just elevated her and it would have made perfect sense.  She could have been like, I am a virgin but I control myself now.  Instead we got that crap. 

 

Sorry /endrant... the ROR thread is making me a little neurotic  :lol:

Exactly, there has been zero character development for Sansa. She is the same naive, little girl from season 1 when she saw her father murdered. You would think her experiences and hanging with littlefinger would inform her on the way the world works. but no. It's dumb that there are so many static characters despite most of them traveling all of Westeros. :wallbash:

[qwksndmonster]

Exactly, there has been zero character development for Sansa. She is the same naive, little girl from season 1 when she saw her father murdered. You would think her experiences and hanging with littlefinger would inform her on the way the world works. but no. It's dumb that there are so many static characters despite most of them traveling all of Westeros. :wallbash:

She's not the same naive little girl from season 1, but she definitely needs to be taking more agency in her arc.  Making her a victim YET AGAIN does absolutely nothing for her character.  They can still have her come out of this stronger than before, but the fact remains that the writers went out of their way to write the rape scene.  I've seen a lot of people on reddit saying "hur dur what did you expect?  Weddings in Westeros require consummation."  The writers sculpted Sansa's story line.  They wrote it.  It would've been really easy to write a Sansa plot where she doesn't get raped.

 

So far in the show we have:

 

Dany + Drogo rape scene which was consensual in the books.

Cersei + Jaime rape scene which was consensual in the books.

Sansa + Ramsay rape scene which wasn't in the books.

 

It's pretty clear that what Liger says about using rape for shock value is true.  It also shows a lack of imagination when writing for female characters.  

 

"Oh, a female has to endure something?  I KNOW!"

[Samson's Flow]

She's not the same naive little girl from season 1, but she definitely needs to be taking more agency in her arc.  Making her a victim YET AGAIN does absolutely nothing for her character.  They can still have her come out of this stronger than before, but the fact remains that the writers went out of their way to write the rape scene.  I've seen a lot of people on reddit saying "hur dur what did you expect?  Weddings in Westeros require consummation."  The writers sculpted Sansa's story line.  They wrote it.  It would've been really easy to write a Sansa plot where she doesn't get raped.

 

So far in the show we have:

 

Dany + Drogo rape scene which was consensual in the books.

Cersei + Jaime rape scene which was consensual in the books.

Sansa + Ramsay rape scene which wasn't in the books.

 

It's pretty clear that what Liger says about using rape for shock value is true.  It also shows a lack of imagination when writing for female characters.  

 

"Oh, a female has to endure something?  I KNOW!"

Well put qwk. You more effectively highlighted my problem with the show than I was able to. The HBO version seems to have an infatuation with providing motivation/resentment in their characters through sexual violence. This was not an aspect of George RR Martin's version, where any rape situations were only on unnamed characters during the spoils of war.

 

All the male characters have a multitude of challenges and obstacles to overcome, but the female characters seem to have predominately sexual obstacles. It cheapens the story and is very un-imaginative IMO.

[qwksndmonster]

---------------------------------

 

The Sansa rape scene has absorbed all my rage this week.  Here's a little rage for the other terrible parts of the epiosde:

 

The Bland Snakes scene was terrible.  Scooby Doo writing on display.  Obara Sand continues to have the worst dialogue ever.  The show continues to be terrible at shooting action sequences.

 

Arya's scenes were super boring again.  At least the giant face room was cool.  I strongly disliked Jaqen straight up torturing her because she's not learning fast enough.  "I don't want to play anymore" is about the least Arya thing Arya could ever say.  What a clumsy way to show she liked the Hound.  WE KNOW SHE LIKED THE HOUND.

 

Cersei/Marg storyline is being handled pretty badly.  I hate that the faith is now against homosexuality... some more incredibly classy show only writing.  Not only does it continue their path of writing Loras as "that one gay knight,"  it's not at all compelling.

 

Everything that was wrong with the trial/not trial scene:

-Olenna agrees to go without guards, not expecting Cersei to pull any sort of dumb Cersei stuff.  First they make Varys look stupid, now the Queen of Thorns.

-Ollyver's evidence was weak as heck.  If he was Loras's squire, doesn't it logically follow that he would've dressed Loras often, and would know about his birth mark?

-Aged up Tommen continues to do nothing ever.  If he is going to be this useless, just have him be a 9 year old.

-The faith militant continue to look like a death squad, and never act like they are of the faith.  It would've been so much more compelling to have an "army of the just" in King's landing instead of the black cloaked club wielders.

[LGR4GM]

Again if Sansa takes control of that situation and acts like an adult with an ulterior motive, so much more powerful and interesting for her character. I say that because I bet they will just right off what happened to her and never address it so it was literally just there for shock value.

[qwksndmonster]

Well put qwk. You more effectively highlighted my problem with the show than I was able to. The HBO version seems to have an infatuation with providing motivation/resentment in their characters through sexual violence. This was not an aspect of George RR Martin's version, where any rape situations were only on unnamed characters during the spoils of war.

 

All the male characters have a multitude of challenges and obstacles to overcome, but the female characters seem to have predominately sexual obstacles. It cheapens the story and is very un-imaginative IMO.

The worst rape parts in the book were Arya hearing about what the Mountain and his men would do to small folk, and Brienne almost getting raped by the Goat's men until Jaime saved her maidenhead with his lies.  Luckily Jaime was able to save her too.

 

The show added a Sansa almost gets raped scene into season 2 during the bread riots.  She was saved by the Hound.

 

If I was Sophie Turner, I'd be really creeped out that Weiss and Beinoff are still running this show.

Again if Sansa takes control of that situation and acts like an adult with an ulterior motive, so much more powerful and interesting for her character. I say that because I bet they will just right off what happened to her and never address it so it was literally just there for shock value.

I don't think Sansa acted un-adult in that situation.  I just don't think the situation ever needed to come up.  The most despicable part of that scene is that it was more about Theon than her.  Losing her maidenhead.  By rape.  To a complete maniac.  Poor Reek has to watch.

 

And if they REALLY want to have that rape scene (which clearly they did), then have the bath scene between her and Myranda AFTERWARDS so Sansa can say that in her home nobody can hurt her.

 

The episode title was "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken."  That's supposed to be Sansa, too.  Ramsay can take her flesh, but in her mind she's still a Stark, and will have her revenge.

Edited May 19, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[LGR4GM]

The thing is the scene wasn't in there to define Sansa's character it was used a plot device for Theon and Ramsey.  Theon still gives a crap and Ramsey is Satan...  IMPO that's not an okay use of something like that. I mean your going to use rape and then not make it about the character that is being assaulted... WTF?

[qwksndmonster]

The thing is the scene wasn't in there to define Sansa's character it was used a plot device for Theon and Ramsey.  Theon still gives a crap and Ramsey is Satan...  IMPO that's not an okay use of something like that. I mean your going to use rape and then not make it about the character that is being assaulted... WTF?

It's like they're following the Jeyne Poole is fArya storyline, and they forgot that Sansa is actually the one in Winterfell.

[drnkirishone]

I don't understand the rage on the scene. it was clear to me what was going to happen the second Littlefinger made his plan known to wed her. so I don't see the scene as a surprise. This is a true stark this is happening to, not a peasant being passed off as a stark. This could be the very thing that moves the north from the north remembers to the north paints its walls with you intestines. I was actually kinda happy with the restraint they showed in filming it and was glad they moved a lot of it to happening out of view. I thought it was a bit more dramatic trying to view the scene thru Reeks facial expressions. I also argue that her time with Littlefinger did not prepare her to deal with someone like Ramsey. I really doubt littlefinger had her practicing seduction and such. I will be a bit pissed if they do not use this event as a springboard for Sansa to take charge of her life and help restore a true stark line to the north

[TrueBlueGED]

I honestly think the mass outrage is because it's Sansa. I just don't understand why so many people are outraged at this rape when it's hardly the first time it has been depicted on the show. Dany's first time with Drogo was a rape, and I don't remember any outrage at all. The Dothraki war preparations showed gang rape, and I don't remember anything. But starting with the Cersei/Jaime rape (for the record, I don't think that was intended to be a rape, the director just totally botched the execution of the scene), it seems the sensitivity to it has been kicked up many notches. I totally get criticizing the show actually showing rapes, but I don't understand the totally inconsistent outrage. Why is this scene causing viewers to quit when others didn't? I think it's because of the specific characters involved.

 

That said, I am glad that so many are bothered, because people should be this disturbed by rape. In real life I've heard way too many casual dismissals of sexual assault claims with things like "oh she was drunk" or "she's dressed like a slut so she wanted it" or "she's just after his money" than I'd care to remember.

 

Separately, these sand snakes are just awful. Bad writing, worse casting.

[qwksndmonster]

I don't understand the rage on the scene. it was clear to me what was going to happen the second Littlefinger made his plan known to wed her. so I don't see the scene as a surprise. This is a true stark this is happening to, not a peasant being passed off as a stark. This could be the very thing that moves the north from the north remembers to the north paints its walls with you intestines. I was actually kinda happy with the restraint they showed in filming it and was glad they moved a lot of it to happening out of view. I thought it was a bit more dramatic trying to view the scene thru Reeks facial expressions. I also argue that her time with Littlefinger did not prepare her to deal with someone like Ramsey. I really doubt littlefinger had her practicing seduction and such. I will be a bit pissed if they do not use this event as a springboard for Sansa to take charge of her life and help restore a true stark line to the north

To the first bolded.  Just because they telegraphed it a few episodes ago doesn't make it good writing.  They actively chose to portray the rape.

To the second bolded.  The Red Wedding wouldn't cause them to rage out (members of every single Northron nobility slaughtered), but Sansa getting raped will?  I doubt it.  I think the rage will come, the North is just biding their time.

 

I agree that it was tastefully filmed, at the very least.

 

I honestly think the mass outrage is because it's Sansa. I just don't understand why so many people are outraged at this rape when it's hardly the first time it has been depicted on the show. Dany's first time with Drogo was a rape, and I don't remember any outrage at all. The Dothraki war preparations showed gang rape, and I don't remember anything. But starting with the Cersei/Jaime rape (for the record, I don't think that was intended to be a rape, the director just totally botched the execution of the scene), it seems the sensitivity to it has been kicked up many notches. I totally get criticizing the show actually showing rapes, but I don't understand the totally inconsistent outrage. Why is this scene causing viewers to quit when others didn't? I think it's because of the specific characters involved.

 

That said, I am glad that so many are bothered, because people should be this disturbed by rape. In real life I've heard way too many casual dismissals of sexual assault claims with things like "oh she was drunk" or "she's dressed like a slut so she wanted it" or "she's just after his money" than I'd care to remember.

 

Separately, these sand snakes are just awful. Bad writing, worse casting.

I've always hated the Dany-Drogo scene.  I hated Sansa's "near rape" during the bread riots in season 2.

 

Disagree very strongly that it's based on who got raped (except for in a story sense, Sansa's been tortured too much already and this does little to add to her character).  I think people are sick of the writers leaning on rape as a way to depict women suffering.  At least, that's why I hope they're enraged.

[TrueBlueGED]

Okay, that makes sense. I may have just been misreading the outrage then. I was reading it as anger over depiction of a rape in a vacuum, not in a straw that broke the camel's back sense.