Pominville to Minnesota Wild UPDATE: offered extension.

[TrueBlueGED]

Staphford STILL managed to be a -1 tonight - though the rest of the team worked hard. No goals or assists - hard to imagine a guy with his salary adding no contribution to a 4 goal game AND ending up hurting the team (-1) Why Regier didn't get this guy out the door this week is amazing. Regier loves to have his ego stroked with the trades - He can't do 3 or 4 "B" level trades for the sake of IMPROVING the team - no, he's got to focus on one A+ trade where everything goes his way, financially, so everyone can tell him how brilliant he is, what a tough negotiator he is, ad nauseum.

 

For the love of....please stop using +/- as if it's some definitive, worthwhile statistic--it's not. This is not a defense of Stafford, he sucks right now....but let me phrase it this way: +/- is the Drew Stafford of hockey stats.

[Jsixspd]

For the love of....please stop using +/- as if it's some definitive, worthwhile statistic--it's not. This is not a defense of Stafford, he sucks right now....but let me phrase it this way: +/- is the Drew Stafford of hockey stats.

 

Since you're the one bringing it up, explain exactly why it isn't a good statistic? At a basic level, if a player is minus, then the team has been scored against more than it's scored while that player has been on the ice. Now the individual significance could be diluted by the line that the coach puts that player on, but almost any player stat the same could be said, even points scored.

 

Attached is the current top ten in plus minus - many STELLAR names like Toews. And look at the number of goals scored..... I think it's an important metric for judging a player's effectiveness - and it's always one of the first things I check.

 

And let's take an example from last night's Wild vs LA game..... Pominville had a mediocre game, and he was -1 on the night. OTOH, Robyn Regehr played a good solid game, and he was +2. So is that just a coincidence?

[qwksndmonster]

Since you're the one bringing it up, explain exactly why it isn't a good statistic? At a basic level, if a player is minus, then the team has been scored against more than it's scored while that player has been on the ice. Now the individual significance could be diluted by the line that the coach puts that player on, but almost any player stat the same could be said, even points scored.

 

Attached is the current top ten in plus minus - many STELLAR names like Toews. And look at the number of goals scored..... I think it's an important metric for judging a player's effectiveness - and it's always one of the first things I check.

 

And let's take an example from last night's Wild vs LA game..... Pominville had a mediocre game, and he was -1 on the night. OTOH, Robyn Regehr played a good solid game, and he was +2. So is that just a coincidence?

Oh wow. All the best + - guys are on PIT, ANA, CHI, and BOS. Yeah, amazing stat :rolleyes:

[JJFIVEOH]

+/- is only a good stat when comparing players within a team.

[IKnowPhysics]

+/- is only a good stat when comparing players within a team.

 

And even then it can be skewed by who that player plays with and against. If only there were some sort of statistics that were advanced enough to eliminate some of these factors! Alas, it can never be, as it would clearly be voodoo mumbojumbo.

[JJFIVEOH]

And even then it can be skewed by who that player plays with and against. If only there were some sort of statistics that were advanced enough to eliminate some of these factors! Alas, it can never be, as it would clearly be voodoo mumbojumbo.

 

Very true. You need to take into effect every aspect if you want to compare +/-. It's a factor I use when trying to convince people that Hecht is really important on this team as a defensive forward when you consider thet fact that his lines rarely score goals, yet he is the 2nd highest forward at a +7. I don't even bother comparing +/- among players from different teams.

[26CornerBlitz]

Adam Proteau of THN answers the question of: Was Pominville too pricey? http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/51083-Was-Pominville-too-pricey.html

 

Adam, did the Minnesota Wild give up too much for Jason Pominville?

 

Yes, I believe they did – and I thought that was true when I thought Minnesota was “only” giving up prospects Matt Hackett and Johan Larsson. When it emerged that the Wild also would surrender a first and second round pick in the deal, the costliness of the trade went through the roof.

 

That’s not to say I don’t think Minnesota will benefit from Pominville, a speedy, skilled winger and quiet leader. Indeed, the Wild’s deep pool of NHL prospects allowed GM Chuck Fletcher to make an offer Sabres counterpart Darcy Regier couldn’t refuse. However, let’s not forget Pominville has only one year remaining on his contract before he becomes an unrestricted free agent. Giving up that much for what could amount to 100 games of Pominville in a Wild uniform is too rich for my tastes.

[Jsixspd]

And even then it can be skewed by who that player plays with and against. If only there were some sort of statistics that were advanced enough to eliminate some of these factors! Alas, it can never be, as it would clearly be voodoo mumbojumbo.

 

ANY player statistic can be skewed by who he plays with on a line.

 

And it also has to be weighed in consideration with goals and assists. You can't mindlessly use only one stat to evaluate a player's performance

 

 

There are some players with decent totals for goals and assists who have a lousy +/-

 

However, generally, the good players will have a solid+/- I don't think it's any accident the good teams also have a bunch of guys with good +/- stats - it's because management have assembled a great team!!!

 

But let's look at the flip sideI sorted for worst +/-, and attached a snip of that stat. Tanguay, Cammaleri, Streit and Campbell are better than their +/- along would suggest, given their points.

 

But, some of the guys absolutely stink. Weiss, 1 goal and 3 assists in 17 games as a center. Brodziak and Jokinen with a Stafford-like offensive output for the season......

[Grumpy]

Power play obviously increases point totals and has no bearing on increasing +/-. Vanek and Hodgson for example.

[TrueBlueGED]

The other problem with +/- is a player is just as likely to have a +10 as a - 10 when they have zero impact on play. When I get home I'll find the article which illustrates this. It subject to more random variation than other stats such as corsi or Fenwick. Possession statistics are so much better than +/-.

[IKnowPhysics]

Possession statistics are so much better than +/-.

 

[Grumpy]

As an aside, I was in Hollywood Wedn. with my family. Saw where JB OD'd. What a dump from the outside.

[IKnowPhysics]

The article from the Star Tribune's interesting; it talks up Larsson as a prospect- maybe more costly than the 1st rounder. Could be a case of Wild scouts thinking "one in the hand is worth two in the bush," but maybe there's something there. It'll be interesting to watch this kid a little bit.

 

Russo's NHL Insider: Larsson hard to part with for Wild

 

Parting with Johan Larsson wasn’t an easy move for a Wild brain trust that had watched him blossom into star material.

...

Unless General Manager Chuck Fletcher is able to acquire another first-round pick, the Wild hierarchy won’t get to go on stage this June in New Jersey. But perhaps the harder blow was giving up Johan Larsson in the package. Larsson was considered one of those home runs inside the Wild.

 

It’s that part of the Pominville trade that caused the most internal debate inside the Wild. Trading Larsson was crushing for assistant GM Brent Flahr, who proudly called him “the Grumpy Swede.”

[nfreeman]

The article from the Star Tribune's interesting; it talks up Larsson as a prospect- maybe more costly than the 1st rounder. Could be a case of Wild scouts thinking "one in the hand is worth two in the bush," but maybe there's something there. It'll be interesting to watch this kid a little bit.

 

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Good stuff. Thanks for posting.

[Eleven]

Had anyone ever posted this pic of Pommer here before?

 

https://twitter.com/EricaRene4/status/248135249316433920/photo/1

[Robviously]

Had anyone ever posted this pic of Pommer here before?

 

https://twitter.com/...6433920/photo/1

Awesome photo. The other Sabres (left to right) are Weber, guy whose face is blocked by Weber's arm (Stafford?), and then Roy?

 

I'm watching the Wild game now.

[Onceagain]

On the right - gotta be Ott!!

 

Awesome photo. The other Sabres (left to right) are Weber, guy whose face is blocked by Weber's arm (Stafford?), and then Roy?

 

I'm watching the Wild game now.

[qwksndmonster]

Up and to the right of Pommer's head is a smirking guy in the background... It's Miller!

[Robviously]

Poms with an assist on the first Wild goal, although I thought he may have tipped it in. We'll see if they change it later.

[Trettioåtta]

Pommers gets a nice feed from Parise to get his first goal

[LGR4GM]

Heard Pommers fam drove to Columbus for the game. Glad to see him get some pts. Good luck.

[Marvelo]

Jason is the truest blue Sabre I ever saw. So sad to see him go but I wish him best of luck...I know he'll be a great team player no matter where he goes.

[thesportsbuff]

I haven't caught up with this thread since the deadline but I just read this in an article and wasn't sure if it had been mentioned. From TheHockeyNews (http://www.thehockey...unning-low.html):

 

 

"The Sabres could absorb part of either player's remaining salary for next season to facilitate a trade. That's what they did in the Pominville deal, keeping $225,000 from his contract this season and $900,000 next season to help keep the Wild below the cap."

 

Not really anything groundbreaking but I guess this is our first example of how retaining salary can help get a trade done. This is something I would have expected in a Drew Stafford trade but not necessarily in the Pominville deal. I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere so I thought I'd share.

[Eleven]

I haven't caught up with this thread since the deadline but I just read this in an article and wasn't sure if it had been mentioned. From TheHockeyNews (http://www.thehockey...unning-low.html):

 

 

"The Sabres could absorb part of either player's remaining salary for next season to facilitate a trade. That's what they did in the Pominville deal, keeping $225,000 from his contract this season and $900,000 next season to help keep the Wild below the cap."

 

Not really anything groundbreaking but I guess this is our first example of how retaining salary can help get a trade done. This is something I would have expected in a Drew Stafford trade but not necessarily in the Pominville deal. I didn't see it mentioned elsewhere so I thought I'd share.

 

There are two kinds of retaining salary: one where the player might be worth it (or close) and the "receiving" team doesn't have the room to make the deal without retention by the "sending" team, and another where the player just isn't worth it (think Jagr from DC to Rangers). Stafford would fall into that second category.

[thesportsbuff]

There are two kinds of retaining salary: one where the player might be worth it (or close) and the "receiving" team doesn't have the room to make the deal without retention by the "sending" team, and another where the player just isn't worth it (think Jagr from DC to Rangers). Stafford would fall into that second category.

 

Absolutely he would. If we ate 50% of his salary he would be a brilliant throw-in piece for a trade for a better player. The example I used before (and don't go nuts over how unrealistic it is, it's just an example) was in a Myers for Bobby Ryan deal, Anaheim might be a lot more likely to do that if they're getting a potential 25 goal scorer to replace Ryan for just $2mil in addition to Myers.

 

I just thought it was interesting because I had heard nothing of the Sabres retaining salary in the Pominville trade. It was necessary to get the deal done but now this article mentions the idea of retaining salary in Vanek, Miller trades too.... but then we're talking about 3-5 million in retained, dead salary on the roster. Probably not ideal.