Eleven Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 I create my own reality. Do it with your own attribution.
IKnowPhysics Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Blurred lines. You know you want it. YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT.
tom webster Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Correct. He's a third- or even fourth-liner on other teams. The Sabres might have the worst roster in the league right now. Disagree with both of you. In my opinion, Foligno projects as a solid number 7 with potential for a top 6 winger. Where he was drafted is irrelevant to what he has developed into. There is no doubt that where he was drafted indicated a third or fourth line guy but while it doesn't happen often it does happen where a guy develops into more then anticipated. Not many people expected him to continue the torrid pace he set his first year but respected hockey men labeled him a rookie of the year candidate and upcoming power forward before last year. There is just no definitive way of knowing who is right. I continue to be amazed at a few things I keep reading from people whose opinions I respect. a) the rush to write off guys, or put a ceiling on them so early, and b) so much stock put into a season that most acknowledge was a crap shoot.
nobody Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Blurred lines. So you believe in the concept of creating pairings rather than lines? :)
Eleven Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Disagree with both of you. In my opinion, Foligno projects as a solid number 7 with potential for a top 6 winger. Where he was drafted is irrelevant to what he has developed into. There is no doubt that where he was drafted indicated a third or fourth line guy but while it doesn't happen often it does happen where a guy develops into more then anticipated. Not many people expected him to continue the torrid pace he set his first year but respected hockey men labeled him a rookie of the year candidate and upcoming power forward before last year. There is just no definitive way of knowing who is right. I continue to be amazed at a few things I keep reading from people whose opinions I respect. a) the rush to write off guys, or put a ceiling on them so early, and b) so much stock put into a season that most acknowledge was a crap shoot. With Foligno, it's not about where he was drafted (for me); it's about his skill set. With the rest of the roster, here's how I see it: How many of the Sabres' players would be in comparable roles on other teams? Hodgson likely would not be a #1 center elsewhere (but he'd be a #2). Many of these guys wouldn't even make other NHL teams. I think the only three players on the Sabres roster who would fill similar roles on other teams are Vanek (top-line winger), Ehrhoff (top pair defenseman) and Miller (starting goaltender). Possibly Weber and Tallinder as second pair defensemen, but I'm not even sure there. If Ott ends up as a third-line winger, you can add him in there, too, but I'm not sure that's where he'll be. That's why I think the roster may be the worst in the league right now.
LGR4GM Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Good I hope this roster is the worst in the league right now. Been 1 to many years of hearing about how we could do this or that or maybe make it. F that noise, I want craptastic going in because anything we do after that is a bonus. If foligno is a 3rd liner fine. If he manages to stick on the 2nd line excellent. This season for me isn't about where the team ends up in the rankings but where players progress to.
tom webster Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 With Foligno, it's not about where he was drafted (for me); it's about his skill set. With the rest of the roster, here's how I see it: How many of the Sabres' players would be in comparable roles on other teams? Hodgson likely would not be a #1 center elsewhere (but he'd be a #2). Many of these guys wouldn't even make other NHL teams. I think the only three players on the Sabres roster who would fill similar roles on other teams are Vanek (top-line winger), Ehrhoff (top pair defenseman) and Miller (starting goaltender). Possibly Weber and Tallinder as second pair defensemen, but I'm not even sure there. If Ott ends up as a third-line winger, you can add him in there, too, but I'm not sure that's where he'll be. That's why I think the roster may be the worst in the league right now. First, I think it is hard to compare rosters like that, As I said 100 times before. Its all about the top end talent, most of the rest of the rosters are interchangeable.. I think a guy like Pysyk makes almost every team as 5th/6th pairing who will develop into a top 4 guy and I think anyone on the Sabres third/fourth lines could make most other teams in the same roles. I think almost the entire roster is NHL capable but as you said, there is no doubt that their roles would be different elsewhere. Its like a guy like Paille. He fits in great as a third, sometimes fourth line player capable of filling in a shift or two on your top line cause of his speed, work ethic and hockey smarts. I think a guy like Stafford makes most teams as a second, third line winger who isn't expected to be the guy. I think both Ott and Kaletta are very valuable third line players on most teams and I do think they will serve roles similar to Paille on the Sabres as well. It is hard to argue based on last year that this roster is lacking but if Hodgson, Myers and Stafford develop the way I still think they are capable, then they move to the middle of the pack, but again, who knows.
MattPie Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 You know you want it. YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT. You know you want to hug me. This roster's ugly.
TrueBlueGED Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Disagree with both of you. In my opinion, Foligno projects as a solid number 7 with potential for a top 6 winger. Where he was drafted is irrelevant to what he has developed into. There is no doubt that where he was drafted indicated a third or fourth line guy but while it doesn't happen often it does happen where a guy develops into more then anticipated. Not many people expected him to continue the torrid pace he set his first year but respected hockey men labeled him a rookie of the year candidate and upcoming power forward before last year. There is just no definitive way of knowing who is right. I continue to be amazed at a few things I keep reading from people whose opinions I respect. a) the rush to write off guys, or put a ceiling on them so early, and b) so much stock put into a season that most acknowledge was a crap shoot. With respect to point B, I don't think many of us are looking at last season in a vacuum simply because it was the continuation of a several year trend in performance. Start out well, crap the bed for a long time, then collect a bunch of "too little too late" in the last portion of the season. The short season just allowed us to draft 8th rather than 12th. I bought into the chemistry stuff, the injury stuff, and every other explanation you could come up with for why the past few years were so up and down...but when the same thing happens three years in a row, it has to force you to at least consider that the team is just pretty bad. After all, being able to play consistently well is what really separates the good teams from the bad. Any team can get hot for a stretch (and most do at some point during a season), but only the good ones can sustain a high level of play.
tom webster Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 With respect to point B, I don't think many of us are looking at last season in a vacuum simply because it was the continuation of a several year trend in performance. Start out well, crap the bed for a long time, then collect a bunch of "too little too late" in the last portion of the season. The short season just allowed us to draft 8th rather than 12th. I bought into the chemistry stuff, the injury stuff, and every other explanation you could come up with for why the past few years were so up and down...but when the same thing happens three years in a row, it has to force you to at least consider that the team is just pretty bad. After all, being able to play consistently well is what really separates the good teams from the bad. Any team can get hot for a stretch (and most do at some point during a season), but only the good ones can sustain a high level of play. Save for the first sentence, can't say I disagree. What I will contend, however, is that this team won't be the same team. Not sure whether it will be better or worse, just different.
Weave Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Disagree with both of you. In my opinion, Foligno projects as a solid number 7 with potential for a top 6 winger. Where he was drafted is irrelevant to what he has developed into. There is no doubt that where he was drafted indicated a third or fourth line guy but while it doesn't happen often it does happen where a guy develops into more then anticipated. Not many people expected him to continue the torrid pace he set his first year but respected hockey men labeled him a rookie of the year candidate and upcoming power forward before last year. There is just no definitive way of knowing who is right. I continue to be amazed at a few things I keep reading from people whose opinions I respect. a) the rush to write off guys, or put a ceiling on them so early, and b) so much stock put into a season that most acknowledge was a crap shoot. Like Eleven, I'm not basing my opinion on where he was drafted, I'm basing it on how pros have assessed his skills and what I've watched of his game. I don't know what you've seen to indicate he's got 2nd line scoring in him. Frankly, I just don't think he's shown any more than maybe 6-8 games with that kind of stuff. Other than that, he's shown me classic 3rd/4th line skill sets. Don't get me wrong, I'll be thrilled if he becomes more than an energy/checking line guy. But I think we are setting ourselves up for disappointment if we put 2nd line performance up there as his benchmark for the season..
thewookie1 Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I disagree with both Foligno projections honestly, I see him more as a 3rd/2nd line player. Someone who can score and be very offensively talented but most of the time is worth more as a finesse player. I could see him being like a Bryan Bickell for us, wheres he's ok in the season and awesome in the playoffs. Another thing I'd love to do though is send Miller,Stafford, and McNabb to Edm for Eberle and Hemsky thus making Vanek more likely to stay. How do think this roster would hold up? Vanek - Hodgson - Eberle 1A Ott - Grigs - Leino 2A Ennis - Foligno - Hemsky/Flynn/Tropp 2B Kaleta - Porter - Scott/Tropp/Flynn 4A Myers - Tallinder Ehrhoff - Sulzer Weber - Pysyk Ruhwedal, McBain, Risto Enroth Hackett
dudacek Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 As much as Foligno's late 2012 stint may have incorrectly inflated expectations, his play in 2013 seems to have incorrectly deflated them. Those consigning him to the fourth line seem to forget he has just two years pro under his belt and just turned 22 this month. This kid made team Canada, was a top 50 prospect according to the Hockey News scouts poll, and was among the AHLs highest scoring power forwards at age 21 prior to the lockout ending. I know this forum is goofy about what constitutes a third-liner, but big guy who hits and can score 10/20/30 (roughly what his numbers this past year projected to) is already a NHL third-liner by any definition. He may never get better, but history and common sense say he should, and his track record indicates he could get a lot better.
dudacek Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 Check out how Foligno's stats compare to some top six power forwards around the league. Foligno: At 19: OHL 47 23/36/59 At 20: AHL 60 16/23/39 NHL 14 6/7/13 At 21: AHL 33 10/17/27 NHL 47 5/13/18 Milan Lucic: At 19: NHL 77 8/19/27 At 20: NHL 72 17/25/42 At 21: NHL 50 9/11/20 Dustin Brown At 19: NHL 31 1/4/5 At 20: AHL 79 29/45/74 At 21: NHL 79 14/14/28 Max Pacioretty At 19: NCAA 37 15/24/39 At 20: AHL 37 6/23/29 NHL 34 3/8/11 At 21: AHL 18 2/9/11 NHL 52 3/11/14 David Clarkson At 19: OHL 55 22/17/39 At 20: OHL 51 33/21/54 At 21: AHL 56 13/21/34 Kyle Okposo At 19: NCAA 18 7/4/11 At 20: AHL 35 9/19/28 NHL 9 2/3/5 At 21: NHL 65 18/21/39 Chris Stewart At 19: OHL 61 36/46/82 At 20: AHL 77 25/19/44 At 21: AHL: 19 5/6/11 NHL 53 11/8/19 Yes, Foligno might end up being more Brad May than Keith Tkachuk, but it's clearly still too early to make that call.
LGR4GM Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I find those numbers interesting. Foligno is one of the players I want to watch with great interest this season. I actually think the lockout helped him and Hodgson as well. Foligno needed more minutes in the AHL and I think he still has a good shot of being a surprise this season.
Weave Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I find those numbers interesting. Foligno is one of the players I want to watch with great interest this season. I actually think the lockout helped him and Hodgson as well. Foligno needed more minutes in the AHL and I think he still has a good shot of being a surprise this season. Wording it the way you worded it in this post makes more sense than how you worded it upthread. This post is cautiously optimistic. the other post that I responded to sounded much more like a concrete expectation.
LGR4GM Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 Wording it the way you worded it in this post makes more sense than how you worded it upthread. This post is cautiously optimistic. the other post that I responded to sounded much more like a concrete expectation. Lol, I hope he becomes a 2nd line winger. I am cautiously optimistic he will but fully understand he could not. I will watch with measured hope.
Trettioåtta Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I just hope he stops dangling. He was an AHL player in the NHL last season. Let's hope he tries to use his size rather than his hands
TrueBlueGED Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I just hope he stops dangling. He was an AHL player in the NHL last season. Let's hope he tries to use his size rather than his hands 100% this. Every time I saw him try to stick handle through defenders I wanted to hit him with Mike Wilson's purse.
darksabre Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 100% this. Every time I saw him try to stick handle through defenders I wanted to hit him with Mike Wilson's purse. x1000000 He went Drew Stafford on us.
dudacek Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 Last year, after Myers, he was our most disappointing player. But he is still young enough to give him a mulligan. And I guess it is just indicative of how bruised so many of us are by last year that not many are willing to give him one. He is no Mike Jasper fantasy. He remains a legitimate prospect.
nfreeman Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I'll say it: Foligno's gonna be good, and he's going to play the kind of game that almost everyone here is going to like. It's in his blood.
Hephaestus Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I just hope he stops dangling. He was an AHL player in the NHL last season. Let's hope he tries to use his size rather than his hands 100% this. Every time I saw him try to stick handle through defenders I wanted to hit him with Mike Wilson's purse. He also toned down his physical presence quite a bit last year after being ruthless during that end of season call up in 2011-12.
darksabre Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I'll say it: Foligno's gonna be good, and he's going to play the kind of game that almost everyone here is going to like. It's in his blood. I sure hope so. I just hope the coaching staff doesn't try to make him something he isn't.
nobody Posted August 13, 2013 Report Posted August 13, 2013 I'll say it: Foligno's gonna be good, and he's going to play the kind of game that almost everyone here is going to like. It's in his blood. But will he be elite? :)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.