The other sports thread

[Eleven]

first: that play is memorable and amazing because he was out of position and arrived late.

 

second: tell me Jeter gets this same treatment if he's the captain of the Pirates.

 

He wasn't out of position! That's not where the shortstop normally heads on a hit to right. The shortstop covers throws to second on a hit to right. (The second baseman covers first, and the first baseman is the relay.)

 

Of course he doesn't get the same treatment if he's the captain of the Pirates. That still doesn't mean that he's more celebrity than substance.

 

I get your point and generally agree; I just think you went too far in trying to make it.

[LastPommerFan]

I get your point and generally agree; I just think you went too far in trying to make it.

 

It is very hard to balance his obviously exceptional career with an argument against the sports media and Yankees marketing attempt to replicate last year's send off of the single greatest closer to every play the game. How to you argue that one of the 200 greatest players ever to play the game is being over-rated and over -sold? Yet some how, that is exactly what is happening.

 

I also think, and I give him great credit for this, that Jeter represented a good guy hero during a time when baseball desperately needed a good guy hero.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion

[dEnnis the Menace]

It is very hard to balance his obviously exceptional career with an argument against the sports media and Yankees marketing attempt to replicate last year's send off of the single greatest closer to every play the game. How to you argue that one of the 200 greatest players ever to play the game is being over-rated and over -sold? Yet some how, that is exactly what is happening.

 

I also think, and I give him great credit for this, that Jeter represented a good guy hero during a time when baseball desperately needed a good guy hero.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree.

 

Jeter has been something that most other players cannot achieve: consistent at the plate and in the field for 20 years straight. Not the best at his position over those 20 years, but consistent. You always know what you're getting.

 

He has won multiple championships, has a great clutch factor (think Drury), and was the face of baseball during a dark time (the PEDs era). He has an equal bit of celebrity and substance I believe. I've grown up loving the Yankees because of my grandfather (he watched the Yankees since the early 50s). Jeter is a class act, very good hitter (base hits win games), and a decent fielder (he doesn't make a ton of errors). He is 9th all time in hits. That itself merits attention.

[LastPommerFan]

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree.

 

Jeter has been something that most other players cannot achieve: consistent at the plate and in the field for 20 years straight. Not the best at his position over those 20 years, but consistent. You always know what you're getting.

 

He has won multiple championships, has a great clutch factor (think Drury), and was the face of baseball during a dark time (the PEDs era). He has an equal bit of celebrity and substance I believe. I've grown up loving the Yankees because of my grandfather (he watched the Yankees since the early 50s). Jeter is a class act, very good hitter (base hits win games), and a decent fielder (he doesn't make a ton of errors). He is 9th all time in hits. That itself merits attention.

 

All I'm saying is lets not pretend he's Ozzie or Cal when he's Robin Yount. Especially when taking fielding into consideration.

[Eleven]

All I'm saying is lets not pretend he's Ozzie or Cal when he's Robin Yount. Especially when taking fielding into consideration.

 

I think Robin Yount is an excellent comparison.

[LastPommerFan]

I think Robin Yount is an excellent comparison.

 

I was only 11, so maybe I missed something, but Yount didn't get national TV commercials announcing to the world how great he had been, how much re2pect we should have for him. He didn't get almost weekly segments on the baseball shows counting down what appears to be all of his 3300 hits.

 

Ripkin and Smith didn't either, and they are a solid step above Jeter and Yount.

 

Yount was just barely a first ballot HoF-er (77%). I get the feeling the consensus is Jeter is a Shoo-in for First Ballot status, I think that's a mistake.

 

 

(Side note: As long as the all time leading hits leader is not in the Hall of Fame, I refuse to recognize hits as a legitimate statistic regarding hall of fame bonafides.)

 

Also, baseball is such a fun sport to argue about. :D

Edited July 14, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion

[Weave]

What you are seeing is just how watered down HoF's truly are today, and how few of the greatest athletes play baseball now.

[shrader]

15 years ago? Thurman Munson doesn't ring a bell to you, does it?

 

Ok, I'll rephrase this. Has any non-Yankee/Red Sox player in recent years in MLB been regularly referred to as the team captain outside of Jeter and Varitek? The entire list upthread was completely Yankees players.

 

But anyway, I just did a quick google search and according to wikipedia (I'll trust them here), there are currently 3 teams who acknowledge a team captain: the Yankees, Mets, and White Sox. It just seems odd to me when rarely someone likes to hype up that captain thing, especially since it is essentially never used in baseball. And this isn't just a Yankees thing, I hated it when Jeter was mentioned as captain, I hated it when Varitek was mentioned as captain, and I now hate it that Konerko and Wright are listed as captains. It all seems pointless to me.

[Eleven]

I was only 11, so maybe I missed something, but Yount didn't get national TV commercials announcing to the world how great he had been, how much re2pect we should have for him. He didn't get almost weekly segments on the baseball shows counting down what appears to be all of his 3300 hits.

 

Ripkin and Smith didn't either, and they are a solid step above Jeter and Yount.

 

Yount was just barely a first ballot HoF-er (77%). I get the feeling the consensus is Jeter is a Shoo-in for First Ballot status, I think that's a mistake.

 

 

(Side note: As long as the all time leading hits leader is not in the Hall of Fame, I refuse to recognize hits as a legitimate statistic regarding hall of fame bonafides.)

 

Also, baseball is such a fun sport to argue about. :D

 

Ripken got every bit of the attention that Jeter is getting. In fact, I think he got more attention than Jeter is getting.

 

As for Yount, there is a difference between playing in Milwaukee and playing in New York City. That's just one of the reasons I don't like the Yanks, by the way.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Eleven

[TrueBlueGED]

I was only 11, so maybe I missed something, but Yount didn't get national TV commercials announcing to the world how great he had been, how much re2pect we should have for him. He didn't get almost weekly segments on the baseball shows counting down what appears to be all of his 3300 hits.

 

Ripkin and Smith didn't either, and they are a solid step above Jeter and Yount.

 

Yount was just barely a first ballot HoF-er (77%). I get the feeling the consensus is Jeter is a Shoo-in for First Ballot status, I think that's a mistake.

 

 

(Side note: As long as the all time leading hits leader is not in the Hall of Fame, I refuse to recognize hits as a legitimate statistic regarding hall of fame bonafides.)

 

Also, baseball is such a fun sport to argue about. :D

 

The all time hits leader shouldn't have gotten himself banned from the game because of his own stupidity. Maybe I should take this particular point to the zero f#cks given thread, because he shouldn't be in the HoF, and I couldn't possibly care less what he did in the field.

[LastPommerFan]

What you are seeing is just how watered down HoF's truly are today, and how few of the greatest athletes play baseball now.

 

A big part of the problem is a lot of the greatest players in the last couple decades stained themselves with PEDs.

 

Also, the transition from white and African American players to Asian and Latino players is still in progress. Some of the best athletes who play baseball are just arriving. Watching Tanaka pitch this season, he has the potential to be as good or better than Ryan, who is probably the best pitcher of my baseball watching lifetime. He throws so many pitches so well, he has the options for a nice long career.

 

Ripken got every bit of the attention that Jeter is getting. In fact, I think he got more attention than Jeter is getting.

 

He was the best shortstop since guys neither of us ever saw like Honus Wagner. He actually deserved the attention.

 

Also, when he finally retired, the country was mostly paying attention to Osama bin Laden, so I doubt the attention was the same at the end of the season.

[Samson's Flow]

To preface my response let me say that I agree with mostly everything GCoE is arguing. I am a huge baseball follower and readily admit to being in the new statistics/sabermetrics crowd in terms of player evaluation metrics.

That's just it, Rivera was the greatest every to play his position. Jeter is a really good shortstop who played for a long time.

 

Mariano is to Jeter as Hasek is to LaFontaine.

Jeter is only having this 'farewell tour' because Mariano (rightly so) had his last year. The Yankees did not want to insult the face of their franchise for the last 20 or so years, so Jeter gets his own.

 

Hits and runs aren't productive now? This is like judging pitchers without considering wins.

 

 

 

Except for that whole winning thing...he never quite got that down.

As GCoE notes in the quote below, a large population ofthe baseball community is de-emphasizing wins for pitcher evaluation because it depends so much on run support and randomness. Yes, the low ERA and WHIP pitchers will generally have more wins because of better pitching performance. Advanced stats like xFIP are a much better indicator of pitching performance.

 

Just like King Felix had a lot of Cy Young support after going something like 10-11 a few years back with Seattle.

jeff samardzija was the best pitcher in the NL April-June. He had 2 wins.

 

Jeters' runs number is mostly based on his ability to have great productive hitters drive him home. Especially since he so rarely got himself past first base.

 

Again, all of this is in relation to the truly great players. He is an awesome player, and has been incredibly consistent. But if he has the exact same numbers in Milwaukee, we're not having this parade of nonsense.

Jeter spent the majority of his career with the Yankees offense that was annually in the top 10 in run scoring in baseball. Being a high average hitter in that offensive environment will generate more runs than if he played his career elsewhere. He should certainly be lauded for his longevity of playing at a relatively high level, but he was rarely (if ever) one of the truly elite offensive players.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree.

 

Jeter has been something that most other players cannot achieve: consistent at the plate and in the field for 20 years straight. Not the best at his position over those 20 years, but consistent. You always know what you're getting.

 

He has won multiple championships, has a great clutch factor (think Drury), and was the face of baseball during a dark time (the PEDs era). He has an equal bit of celebrity and substance I believe. I've grown up loving the Yankees because of my grandfather (he watched the Yankees since the early 50s). Jeter is a class act, very good hitter (base hits win games), and a decent fielder (he doesn't make a ton of errors). He is 9th all time in hits. That itself merits attention.

Totally disagree.

 

He has become a horrible fielder at the end of his career. He does not have eye popping error totals because his range is so poor that he can't even get to grounders that average and elite defensive shortstops reach. His Defensive Zone Rating is abysmal. Andrelton Simmons and Jeter probably had similar error totals last year, but nobody in thier right mind would argue Jeter is anywhere near that class in terms of fielding.

[Claude_Verret]

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree.

 

Jeter has been something that most other players cannot achieve: consistent at the plate and in the field for 20 years straight. Not the best at his position over those 20 years, but consistent. You always know what you're getting.

 

He has won multiple championships, has a great clutch factor (think Drury), and was the face of baseball during a dark time (the PEDs era). He has an equal bit of celebrity and substance I believe. I've grown up loving the Yankees because of my grandfather (he watched the Yankees since the early 50s). Jeter is a class act, very good hitter (base hits win games), and a decent fielder (he doesn't make a ton of errors). He is 9th all time in hits. That itself merits attention.

 

Jeter's post season clutch hitting acumen is a huge part of his legacy.

[Eleven]

A big part of the problem is a lot of the greatest players in the last couple decades stained themselves with PEDs.

 

Also, the transition from white and African American players to Asian and Latino players is still in progress. Some of the best athletes who play baseball are just arriving. Watching Tanaka pitch this season, he has the potential to be as good or better than Ryan, who is probably the best pitcher of my baseball watching lifetime. He throws so many pitches so well, he has the options for a nice long career.

 

 

 

He was the best shortstop since guys neither of us ever saw like Honus Wagner. He actually deserved the attention.

 

Also, when he finally retired, the country was mostly paying attention to Osama bin Laden, so I doubt the attention was the same at the end of the season.

 

Hey PA: Who was better, Wagner or Ripken?

[Samson's Flow]

Statistic Description: Hits/Hits Allowed

Rank Player (yrs, age) Hits Bats 1. Pete Rose (24) 4256 B 2. Ty Cobb+ (24) 4189 L 3. Hank Aaron+ (23) 3771 R 4. Stan Musial+ (22) 3630 L 5. Tris Speaker+ (22) 3514 L 6. Cap Anson+ (27) 3435 R 7. Honus Wagner+ (21) 3420 R 8. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 3419 L 9. Derek Jeter (20, 40) 3408 R 10. Paul Molitor+ (21) 3319 R 11. Eddie Collins+ (25) 3315 L 12. Willie Mays+ (22) 3283 R 13. Eddie Murray+ (21) 3255 B 14. Nap Lajoie+ (21) 3243 R 15. Cal Ripken+ (21) 3184 R 16. George Brett+ (21) 3154 L 17. Paul Waner+ (20) 3152 L 18. Robin Yount+ (20) 3142 R 19. Tony Gwynn+ (20) 3141 L 20. Dave Winfield+ (22) 3110 R

 

here's the list of the top 20 hits leaders courtesy of baseballreference.com

 

I'm not arguing that he isn't a hall of famer, as only Pete Rose isn't in the hall of fame on that list, but the farewell tour and mentions of best shortstop ever are entirely uneccesary. Every player on that list had longevity in thier favor as each player played for 20+ seasons. That's how you make it on the top of the all time hits list. Some guys (like Cap Anson) are primarily up there because he played 27 seasons. 7 more seasons than the rest at 160-200 hits per season gets you up there.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Touched by Boyes

[X. Benedict]

Jeter's post season clutch hitting acumen is a huge part of his legacy.

 

Forget Jeter's legacy, I'm convinced the best hitter of our lifetime is Ichiro.

Imagine his stats if he spent the 9 years in his prime in the MLB.

[LastPommerFan]

Hey PA: Who was better, Wagner or Ripken?

:lol:

[ubkev]

Derek Jeter dated and dumped: Mariah Carey, Jessica Beal, Jessica Alba, Lara Dutta, Minka Kelly and Jordanna Brewster. All without any one of them saying anything negative about him in the press. He's the greatest player of this or any generation!

[Hoss]

second: tell me Jeter gets this same treatment if he's the captain of the Pirates.

 

If there was no difference between playing in Pittsburgh and playing in the New York City, then your question would deserve a response.

[LastPommerFan]

 

 

If there was no difference between playing in Pittsburgh and playing in the New York City, then your question would deserve a response.

 

So, only leafs and Habs in the HHoF because no one else has the media scrutiny?

[Hoss]

So, only leafs and Habs in the HHoF because no one else has the media scrutiny?

 

Definitely. It's a 100% absolute. Suggesting that there's some extra value in being a New York Yankee means that only Yankees should be Hall of Famers.

[LastPommerFan]

 

 

Definitely. It's a 100% absolute. Suggesting that there's some extra value in being a New York Yankee means that only Yankees should be Hall of Famers.

 

Please describe the extra value of being a New York Yankee. Other than celebrity.

[Eleven]

Please describe the extra value of being a New York Yankee. Other than celebrity.

 

It's a Hall of Fame and not a Hall of Excellence. Playing for the Yankees or Red Sox makes it much more likely that the player will be well recognized. That's about all I see in it.

[LastPommerFan]

It's a Hall of Fame and not a Hall of Excellence. Playing for the Yankees or Red Sox makes it much more likely that the player will be well recognized. That's about all I see in it.

 

Fair point.

[drnkirishone]

I have read all the posts and I just wanted to add 2 things to the conversation

 

1. ###### the yankees, ###### in the ass with a big rubber dick

2. ###### jeter, but at a more loving pace cause he seems to be a nice guy even if he plays for the ###### yankees