LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Maybe this belongs in the ZFG thread. Derek Jeter is not one of the 10 best Shortstops of all time. He might not crack the top 25. Sure, he's a Hall of Famer because enough voters think hits and batting average are useful measures. He is an outstandingly above average player, but his greatness is more celebrity than substance. Especially if you take fielding into consideration. He's not Mariano Rivera. He's not a generational talent. He is not and never was even the best active player at his position. Can we stop with the over the top farewell tour? Are we going to do this every time a Yankee retires? Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Maybe this belongs in the ZFG thread. Derek Jeter is not one of the 10 best Shortstops of all time. He might not crack the top 25. Sure, he's a Hall of Famer because enough voters think hits and batting average are useful measures. He is an outstandingly above average player, but his greatness is more celebrity than substance. Especially if you take fielding into consideration. He's not Mariano Rivera. He's not a generational talent. He is not and never was even the best active player at his position. Can we stop with the over the top farewell tour? Are we going to do this every time a Yankee retires? All of this is wrong. Quote
LGR4GM Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Maybe this belongs in the ZFG thread. Derek Jeter is not one of the 10 best Shortstops of all time. He might not crack the top 25. Sure, he's a Hall of Famer because enough voters think hits and batting average are useful measures. He is an outstandingly above average player, but his greatness is more celebrity than substance. Especially if you take fielding into consideration. He's not Mariano Rivera. He's not a generational talent. He is not and never was even the best active player at his position. Can we stop with the over the top farewell tour? Are we going to do this every time a Yankee retires? He's been the captain of the top sports team in the world for years and also on the team for 20years winning multiple championships. Also batting is half of the game so being good at that does matter. Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 All of this is wrong. go on... He's been the captain of the top sports team in the world for years and also on the team for 20years winning multiple championships. Also batting is half of the game so being good at that does matter. He's just "good" at batting. He's not great. His OPS puts him solidly in the 180-185 range all time. he captained the team to exactly 1 championship in 11 years. Quote
LGR4GM Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 go on... He's just "good" at batting. He's not great. His OPS puts him solidly in the 180-185 range all time. I have used this before when discussing hockey players. Jeter until recently has been solidly consistent for 20years. He is the Jason Pominville of baseball except he has won what? 6 world series? Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I have used this before when discussing hockey players. Jeter until recently has been solidly consistent for 20years. He is the Jason Pominville of baseball except he has won what? 6 world series? No, I get it. He's hall of fame. He is not National Going Away Tour, comparisons to Jordan, level great. Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 He's 9th all time in hits! Ninth!!! He's probably going to end up 6th all time. You cannot possibly do that by being average. Hits produce runs, runs win games. And he's 11th in runs all time. Quote
shrader Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I still hate that a few baseball teams suddenly started calling guys their captain. Go back about 15 years and its a term that was never used. Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 No, I get it. He's hall of fame. He is not National Going Away Tour, comparisons to Jordan, level great. Do you think he's HoF because he deserves it, or because he's Derek Jeter? I agree he's not in the pantheon at his position, but he's a hall of famer on merit. Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 He's 9th all time in hits! Ninth!!! He's probably going to end up 6th all time. You cannot possibly do that by being average. Hits produce runs, runs win games. And he's 11th in runs all time. I never said he was average. He's awesome. hits and runs are not the measures of a players value. his WAR is paltry compared to other shortstops in the last 25 years. His OPS is .822, it's really good. It's certainly not first ballot hall of fame good. Do you think he's HoF because he deserves it, or because he's Derek Jeter? I agree he's not in the pantheon at his position, but he's a hall of famer on merit. definitely hall of fame. Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 He's 9th all time in hits! Ninth!!! He's probably going to end up 6th all time. You cannot possibly do that by being average. Hits produce runs, runs win games. And he's 11th in runs all time. You're going to run into a metrics argument here. He's so high on hits because of his longevity much more so than greatness. OPS is the better measure. Quote
Eleven Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Posted July 14, 2014 All of this is wrong. I cannot freaking stand the Yankees and I agree with you, except I do think the farewell tour is stupid. Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I still hate that a few baseball teams suddenly started calling guys their captain. Go back about 15 years and its a term that was never used. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Thurman Munson, Greg Nettles, Willie Randolph, Ron Guidry, Don Mattingly and Derek Jeter. Munson was very often referred to as the captain and that was in the 70s. Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I cannot freaking stand the Yankees and I agree with you, except I do think the farewell tour is stupid. ...except everything I wrote was that the farewell tour is stupid. Quote
Wraith Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I still hate that a few baseball teams suddenly started calling guys their captain. Go back about 15 years and its a term that was never used. 15 years ago? Thurman Munson doesn't ring a bell to you, does it? Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I cannot freaking stand the Yankees and I agree with you, except I do think the farewell tour is stupid. Well of course the farewell tour is stupid. But did you see the awesome sh!t that Mariano got last year? He had to go for it, haha! Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Well of course the farewell tour is stupid. But did you see the awesome sh!t that Mariano got last year? He had to go for it, haha! That's just it, Rivera was the greatest every to play his position. Jeter is a really good shortstop who played for a long time. Mariano is to Jeter as Hasek is to LaFontaine. Quote
Eleven Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Posted July 14, 2014 ...except everything I wrote was that the farewell tour is stupid. Well, you also wrote this, for example: "Sure, he's a Hall of Famer because enough voters think hits and batting average are useful measures. He is an outstandingly above average player, but his greatness is more celebrity than substance. Especially if you take fielding into consideration." I can't agree with anything in there. Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) That's just it, Rivera was the greatest every to play his position. Jeter is a really good shortstop who played for a long time. Mariano is to Jeter as Hasek is to LaFontaine. If you're going to do that then Jeter is Jagr. Edit: because I don't believe the sabres have ever had a player other than Dom that is on Jeters level. Edited July 14, 2014 by ubkev Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Well, you also wrote this, for example: "Sure, he's a Hall of Famer because enough voters think hits and batting average are useful measures. He is an outstandingly above average player, but his greatness is more celebrity than substance. Especially if you take fielding into consideration." I can't agree with anything in there. Do you think he was a great hitter or fielder? Because his career numbers disagree with both statements. He might be the last player to be considered great based on the old stats. If you're going to do that then Jeter is Jagr. sure! I can get behind that analogy. except Jeter is not in the top 15 of any productive category like Jagr is. Perreault was better at his job than Jeter was at his. Probably Andreychuk too. Quote
ubkev Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Do you think he was a great hitter or fielder? Because his career numbers disagree with both statements. He might be the last player to be considered great based on the old stats. sure! I can get behind that analogy. except Jeter is not in the top 15 of any productive category like Jagr is. Hits and runs aren't productive now? This is like judging pitchers without considering wins. Perreault was better at his job than Jeter was at his. Except for that whole winning thing...he never quite got that down. Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Do you think he was a great hitter or fielder? Because his career numbers disagree with both statements. He might be the last player to be considered great based on the old stats. sure! I can get behind that analogy. except Jeter is not in the top 15 of any productive category like Jagr is. Perreault was better at his job than Jeter was at his. Probably Andreychuk too. I think Andreychuk is the perfect Jeter comparison. Hits and runs aren't productive now? This is like judging pitchers without considering wins. Except for that whole winning thing...he never quite got that down. Well, pitchers shouldn't be judged on wins, so... Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Hits and runs aren't productive now? This is like judging pitchers without considering wins. jeff samardzija was the best pitcher in the NL April-June. He had 2 wins. Jeters' runs number is mostly based on his ability to have great productive hitters drive him home. Especially since he so rarely got himself past first base. Again, all of this is in relation to the truly great players. He is an awesome player, and has been incredibly consistent. But if he has the exact same numbers in Milwaukee, we're not having this parade of nonsense. Edited July 14, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion Quote
Eleven Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Posted July 14, 2014 Do you think he was a great hitter or fielder? Because his career numbers disagree with both statements. He might be the last player to be considered great based on the old stats. sure! I can get behind that analogy. except Jeter is not in the top 15 of any productive category like Jagr is. Perreault was better at his job than Jeter was at his. Probably Andreychuk too. This is not "above average"; it is outstanding. This is not "more celebrity than substance"; it is the exact opposite, more substance than celebrity. This is one of the most memorable baseball plays that I ever have seen, and you can bet your ass I was rooting for Oakland: http://m.mlb.com/video/v3134880/nyyoak-gm-3-jeter-cuts-down-runner-with-iconic-flip Quote
LastPommerFan Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 This is not "above average"; it is outstanding. This is not "more celebrity than substance"; it is the exact opposite, more substance than celebrity. This is one of the most memorable baseball plays that I ever have seen, and you can bet your ass I was rooting for Oakland: http://m.mlb.com/vid...ith-iconic-flip first: that play is memorable and amazing because he was out of position and arrived late. second: tell me Jeter gets this same treatment if he's the captain of the Pirates. Quote
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