Doohicksie Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 I hope Darcy can see everything clearly: this is what it takes to win. Big, fast, relentless hockey, slick defense, and tireless work ethic. Build us the team we all know we need. Well, we already have the team for that. Even with Gerbe.... he may be short but he's a fireplug. The point is, we've seen the Sabres play like that for periods at a time. They simply to play that way ALL the time. Rather than trying to fill positional voids in the team, they need to bring a few players on who will fill the motivational void the Sabres sometimes have. As for the Kings: Epic run. Well done, boys. Now L.A. can concentrate on the Dodgers.
darksabre Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Well, we already have the team for that. Even with Gerbe.... he may be short but he's a fireplug. The point is, we've seen the Sabres play like that for periods at a time. They simply to play that way ALL the time. Rather than trying to fill positional voids in the team, they need to bring a few players on who will fill the motivational void the Sabres sometimes have. As for the Kings: Epic run. Well done, boys. Now L.A. can concentrate on the Dodgers. I would argue that this team has too many players that are not capable of playing that game for extended periods of time, or else they'd already be doing it. I want players who will play hard night in and night out. I guess I'd also argue that coaching is a major part of that. The Kings were not this good before Sutter. They had the pieces, they just needed the coach to push the right buttons.
shrader Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Quick is insanely good. Is it wrong to say he is the next Marty Brodeur? What makes things a little ironic is Quick beat Brodeur in the Stanely Cup Finals. You could say the "torch" was passed from Marty to Jonathan last night. The good old US of A has been producing some of the better goaltenders in the NHL and arguably the world in the latest generation of hockey players. Something to be excited about. There is no next Marty Brodeur.
darksabre Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 There is no next Marty Brodeur. Yup. That's like saying someone is the next Gordie Howe. Making that comparison is just not appropriate.
shrader Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Yup. That's like saying someone is the next Gordie Howe. Making that comparison is just not appropriate. On that note, I do wonder where New Jersey goes if Marty does hang up the skates. We hear the argument around here a lot that our strong run in 98 and 99 were based squarely on Hasek's shoulders, well take a look at Lou Lamoriello's career. He's been there for 25 years and has had potentially the greatest goalie of all time for 20 of those years. That's one hell of a rock to build around. It might not be quite as easy without him.
dEnnis the Menace Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 I would argue that this team has too many players that are not capable of playing that game for extended periods of time, or else they'd already be doing it. I want players who will play hard night in and night out. I guess I'd also argue that coaching is a major part of that. The Kings were not this good before Sutter. They had the pieces, they just needed the coach to push the right buttons. I am going to disregard the coach comment to avoid the whole conversation again, but in regards to your first comment, that was the Sabres' biggest downfall. There were only less than a handfull of players that laid it on the line night after night, most of them being the rookies that were brought up and played as if it were their last shift (SEE: Foligno). It's something that needs addressed, and I believe that job falls on the GM, Mr. Darcy Regier himself. He needs to get these players out of a comfort zone that it seems they have fallen into. They believe they have job security, even with lackluster performances. Something needs done. There is no next Marty Brodeur. There are some once in a lifetime players that people should not try to compare other up and coming players to. Marty is one of those once in a lifetime players.
darksabre Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 On that note, I do wonder where New Jersey goes if Marty does hang up the skates. We hear the argument around here a lot that our strong run in 98 and 99 were based squarely on Hasek's shoulders, well take a look at Lou Lamoriello's career. He's been there for 25 years and has had potentially the greatest goalie of all time for 20 of those years. That's one hell of a rock to build around. It might not be quite as easy without him. DeLuca has already argued the point that Lamoriello has built a team that doesn't need Brodeur. I think if this Finals taught us anything, it's that the Devils desperately need Brodeur. There is nothing in the organizational pipeline. They'll have to find a goalie through FA or trade. I've already been scolded for posing the idea that if Lamoriello fails without Brodeur that it will tarnish his reputation, but what if he can't find a replacement? What if it takes a decade or more to replace NJ's goaltending? How does that not hurt Lamoriello's reputation? The next couple years are huge for NJ. I hope they're ready. Edit: No I don't. I hope they crash and burn in a blaze of shame.
X. Benedict Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 I think if this Finals taught us anything, it's that the Devils desperately need Brodeur Have a great goalie, limit your opponent to 20 shots. Forget big. This was a defensive post-season in my mind. The Philly-Pitt series being the main exception.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 On that note, I do wonder where New Jersey goes if Marty does hang up the skates. We hear the argument around here a lot that our strong run in 98 and 99 were based squarely on Hasek's shoulders, well take a look at Lou Lamoriello's career. He's been there for 25 years and has had potentially the greatest goalie of all time for 20 of those years. That's one hell of a rock to build around. It might not be quite as easy without him. '95 - Look at the size and grit with skill......Guerin, Holik, McKay, Stevens, Lemieux.......the crafty vets with jam....MacLean, Driver, Carpenter, Broten, Daneyko, Peluso, Dowd, a young Rolston.....then your skill stars in Niedermayer and Richer.....then Brodeur. '00...add Elias, Arnott and Gomez to Holik, Stevens, Niedermayer, Lemieux, Daneyko....add a Rafalski and a Madden.........then Sykora and Mogilny......it's almost as if they perfectly replace the perfect chemistry with a lot of big guys with talent.....tons of role playing leaders with grit....and sprinkle in a few pure skill guys. '03....guys like Langenbruener, Gionta and Nieuwendyk come in......really....he just keeps finding the mix....size/skill/grit/leadership........ It's just the blueprint for playoff success it seems 90% of the time.
X. Benedict Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 It's just the blueprint for playoff success it seems 90% of the time. Interesting thesis. (Sincerely) My take. NJ it has always been slow the game to crawl, and trust Brodeur. Lamariello is not about building the toughest or biggest team and certainly not the one that hits or gets penalized, it is the ultimate triumph of percentages and margins with Broduer as the 1% advantage over the house.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Don't have time to read all the posts ... I'm very happy for the Kings. A well deserved championship. I am especially happy for Carter and Richards. Finally, at least for those two, those Flyer demons have been exorcised. EDIT: Also very happy for Jordan Nolan. He was called up in February and I assume will meet the requirements to have his name on the Cup. I think Ted got screwed around some and I'm glad they have a Stanley Cup champion in the family.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Interesting thesis. (Sincerely) My take. NJ it has always been slow the game to crawl, and trust Brodeur. Lamariello is not about building the toughest or biggest team and certainly not the one that hits or gets penalized, it is the ultimate triumph of percentages and margins with Broduer as the 1% advantage over the house. But look at the names.....some here probably don't understand the level of grit on the early teams. Stevens was an animal. Holik was a 6'4" 240lb center who would put in 25 goals and 100 PIM almost every single year. Guerin was a big guy who was a captain multiple times and would beat you down and score 25-30 a year. Lemieux was a bigger Kaleta who could score 40 goals, not 7. John MacLean was just a gritty guy who could score. Then look at what was pretty much the US Olympic team.....Carpenter, Broten....guys like Chorske and Chambers......even almost 20 years ago, all these guys minus a few were over 200lbs and tons of heart, yet they had 7 guys on the team that could ring up 25 goals. Brodeur is very consistant and that is a great place to start. NJ is built over the years much like the Patriots.....bring in big effort, crafty guys and you limit your potential downside over the years. Over the span of 20 years building your team like that....the law of "smart" averages will pay off and you will get your championships. In the NHL these days, there are probably 12 goalies that can win a Cup with the type of team he builds.
drnkirishone Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Take away Quick and I don't think the Kings make it past the first or second round. And it is not just the fact that he had near record setting numbers. His play let the Kings forwards take risks and push the forecheck beyond what they might of normally done. It emboldened the defense to stay on the blueline and play the puck. The confidence that his team played with him between the pipes is what won them the cup. The sabres lacked confidence in their goaltending (with good reason) for long periods of the season and it cost them a playoff spot. The defense wasn't joining the rush, the forwards wouldn't extend the forecheck. All things the Kings DID on the road to the cup.
drnkirishone Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Lemieux was a bigger Kaleta who could score 40 goals, not 7. Just to nitpick he scored 40 once and it was during a season/era where the leading goal scorer had 70 and his 41 didnt even break the top 5 in the league. Also maybe I don't remember the early Claude good but I don't recall him being a big body checking player. I remember him taking any opening for a dirty hit and I remember him for being hated by anyone not wearing the same sweater as him, but i don't recall him being a big hitter. Or to put it another way... I don't recall seeing him very often in my old collection of Rock em Sock em hockey videos
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Just to nitpick he scored 40 once and it was during a season/era where the leading goal scorer had 70 and his 41 didnt even break the top 5 in the league. Also maybe I don't remember the early Claude good but I don't recall him being a big body checking player. I remember him taking any opening for a dirty hit and I remember him for being hated by anyone not wearing the same sweater as him, but i don't recall him being a big hitter. Or to put it another way... I don't recall seeing him very often in my old collection of Rock em Sock em hockey videos Pat Kaleta 267 Games 26 Goals 17 fights Claude Lemieux 281 Games 97 Goals 14 fights Lemieux ended up with 379 Goals
IKnowPhysics Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Wow. Look at the heaters behind Deboer. That was porn star Taylor Stevens. http://sports.yahoo....07447--nhl.html http://www.torontosu...tracting-devils Los Angeles fun fact: nearly 90% of all legally distributed pornographic films made in the US are made in or produced by studios based in the San Fernando Valley. chz is the other 10%, oh snap!
LastPommerFan Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 There are some once in a lifetime players that people should not try to compare other up and coming players to. Marty is one of those once in a lifetime players. On that note, I do wonder where New Jersey goes if Marty does hang up the skates. We hear the argument around here a lot that our strong run in 98 and 99 were based squarely on Hasek's shoulders, well take a look at Lou Lamoriello's career. He's been there for 25 years and has had potentially the greatest goalie of all time for 20 of those years. That's one hell of a rock to build around. It might not be quite as easy without him. Yup. That's like saying someone is the next Gordie Howe. Making that comparison is just not appropriate. Am i crazy for thinking that putting Brodeur on the pedestal you guys are putting him on is crazy? He is not nor will he every be the champion that Roy or Dryden were, he was never as great a pure puck-stopper as Hasek. He racked up insane numbers because he played a ton of games because he never had to work very hard in terms of SA. The style in front of him makes him look better. He is no doubt one of the top 10 goalies of all time, but there will certainly be goalies in the future who are as good or better. He's not the Gordie Howe of Goaltenders.
TrueBlueGED Posted June 12, 2012 Author Report Posted June 12, 2012 Am i crazy for thinking that putting Brodeur on the pedestal you guys are putting him on is crazy? He is not nor will he every be the champion that Roy or Dryden were, he was never as great a pure puck-stopper as Hasek. He racked up insane numbers because he played a ton of games because he never had to work very hard in terms of SA. The style in front of him makes him look better. He is no doubt one of the top 10 goalies of all time, but there will certainly be goalies in the future who are as good or better. He's not the Gordie Howe of Goaltenders. :worthy:
X. Benedict Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 But look at the names.....some here probably don't understand the level of grit on the early teams. Stevens was an animal. Holik was a 6'4" 240lb center who would put in 25 goals and 100 PIM almost every single year. Guerin was a big guy who was a captain multiple times and would beat you down and score 25-30 a year. Lemieux was a bigger Kaleta who could score 40 goals, not 7. John MacLean was just a gritty guy who could score. Then look at what was pretty much the US Olympic team.....Carpenter, Broten....guys like Chorske and Chambers......even almost 20 years ago, all these guys minus a few were over 200lbs and tons of heart, yet they had 7 guys on the team that could ring up 25 goals. Brodeur is very consistant and that is a great place to start. NJ is built over the years much like the Patriots.....bring in big effort, crafty guys and you limit your potential downside over the years. Over the span of 20 years building your team like that....the law of "smart" averages will pay off and you will get your championships. In the NHL these days, there are probably 12 goalies that can win a Cup with the type of team he builds. I'm not going to argue Stevens (especially Stevens) and Holik, but I just don't see exceptional grit on the NJ roster currently. Except for Bernier's dumb play, this NJ squad didn't take a major penalty in the postseason for fighting or otherwise. At least that I can remember... Clarkson is pretty tough. Volchenkov is tough, but team discipline was much more important than being big or tough. NJ wasn't an exceptionally tough team except to score against.
Claude_Verret Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 And then there were 12... Buffalo Sabres Columbus Blue Jackets Florida Panthers Los Angeles Kings Minnesota Wild Nashville Predators Ottawa Senators Phoenix Coyotes San Jose Sharks St. Louis Blues Washington Capitals Vancouver Canucks Winnipeg Jets And now the Blues are the only remaining franchise that have been in the league longer than Buffalo / Vancity. This sucks.
TrueBlueGED Posted June 12, 2012 Author Report Posted June 12, 2012 Disaster by Bernier. SMFH. Paul ABSOLUTELY turned his situation into a circus. First he wanted New York, then he wanted LA, then he pretty much got traded to Boston but nixed it, then he got traded to the Lakers, and that got cancelled and he threw a hissy-fit on Twitter and threatened to not show up to practices and whatever, then he just happened to "settle" with the Clippers. That's just the briefest of Cliff's Notes on that situation though. In general, I hate that it's all about the players. They're selfish, primadonna douchebags concerned with buddying up and "the show" rather than anything else. All they do is flop and complain when things don't go their way. I started out LOVING Blake Griffin but after a month and a half or so in the NBA, the guy had the biggest fall from grace ever. Flopping, bitching to refs, jawing at other players, staring people down, acting all high and mighty like an arrogant punk. I could go on and on, but I won't since this is the Finals thread. Don't want to derail it. Just wanted to give you a brief reply, didn't wanna leave you hangin' Maybe I'm just desensitized to the entire thing because it's like this now in every single sport, not just basketball. Hasek, Rick Nash, Jeff Carter, John Elway, Eli Manning, and on and on and on. Guys force their way off teams all the time in sports. As far as flopping goes, again, it happens all the time in the NHL too. One game Lundqvist launched himself backwards when the opposition's player was at least a foot from even touching him...Callahan whom everybody loves looks like he's gotten hit with a sniper rifle whenever somebody touches him and then proceeds to whine to refs if the call isn't made...Derek freakin' Jeter pretended he got hit with a stray ball that never actually hit him. Basically I just can't let that stuff bother me much anymore or else I'd probably have to stop watching all sports.
TheMatrix31 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 "Just get in and anything can happen" only works when you have a larger, more physical, more talented team that has underachieved in the regular season. That's nonsense. We CLEARLY underachieved in the regular season, even if we don't have a "larger, more physical" team. TrueBlue.....it is a thousand percent magnified in basketball. The NBA's shadiness is only rivaled by FIFA.
shrader Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 And then there were 12... Buffalo Sabres Columbus Blue Jackets Florida Panthers Los Angeles Kings Minnesota Wild Nashville Predators Ottawa Senators Phoenix Coyotes San Jose Sharks St. Louis Blues Washington Capitals Vancouver Canucks Winnipeg Jets And now the Blues are the only remaining franchise that have been in the league longer than Buffalo / Vancity. This sucks. I know it's not exactly what you're going for here, but I have no problem including Toronto on that list as well.
LastPommerFan Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 I know it's not exactly what you're going for here, but I have no problem including Toronto on that list as well. I thought the exact same thing :w00t:
darksabre Posted June 12, 2012 Report Posted June 12, 2012 Am i crazy for thinking that putting Brodeur on the pedestal you guys are putting him on is crazy? He is not nor will he every be the champion that Roy or Dryden were, he was never as great a pure puck-stopper as Hasek. He racked up insane numbers because he played a ton of games because he never had to work very hard in terms of SA. The style in front of him makes him look better. He is no doubt one of the top 10 goalies of all time, but there will certainly be goalies in the future who are as good or better. He's not the Gordie Howe of Goaltenders. Why can't he be the Gordie Howe of goaltenders? Howe wasn't some unmatchable super hero, he was a legendary hockey player. Brodeur is also a legendary hockey player. Without a doubt he belongs in the conversation with the likes of Hasek, Roy, Dryden, or any other goalie who was of such monumental importance to his team's success. Brodeur has worked his tail off to be one of the best goalies in the league, and made a long career of it. Saying that the style of hockey NJ plays somehow made his job a lot easier so that he didn't have to be as talented, is just naive. There is no reason Brodeur and Howe shouldn't go in the same sentence, just like Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux, LaFleur, Richard, etc. Legends of Hockey. Plain and simple.
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