Ranger Training for the Sabres

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Actually, I don't notice that. I notice we play soft in the defensive zone, chasing the guy with the puck and attempting to stick check him. And yes, opposing point men are always wide open because we do collapse so much. Basic geometry tells me that if you are closer to the guy with the puck, you block more of the shooting/passing lane. I believe this has something to do with why goalies like to get outside the paint and challenge the shooter. It isn't rocket science.

We also play soft in the offensive zone. Our so-called forecheck is nothing more than someone gliding in deep and waving his stick, as if that will accomplish anything. Watch teams that effectively forecheck and than watch the Sabres. It's like night and day. It must be "the system."

[Kristian]

Fair enough. But what Sabres injuries this year would be a result of that, specifically?

 

 

 

I'm no doctor, but based on my own experience in sports, I'd say everything involving joints.

 

Ankles, shoulders, knees.

[fan2456]

We also play soft in the offensive zone. Our so-called forecheck is nothing more than someone gliding in deep and waving his stick, as if that will accomplish anything. Watch teams that effectively forecheck and than watch the Sabres. It's like night and day. It must be "the system."

Absolutely. But, I think that's as much a result of the physical and mental make-up of the players we tended to acquire for years than it is a system. That's on mgmt. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. That's why I've quit blaming the players as much over the last few years. They are what they are. Who is putting them together?

 

(That is a rhetorical question.)

[Kristian]

Absolutely. But, I think that's as much a result of the physical and mental make-up of the players we tended to acquire for years than it is a system. That's on mgmt. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. That's why I've quit blaming the players as much over the last few years. They are what they are. Who is putting them together?

 

(That is a rhetorical question.)

 

Agree whole-heartedly.

 

I think probably half the roster could do better with a change of scenery, simply because the biggest problem is that the roster is way too one-dimensional.

[fan2456]

Agree whole-heartedly.

 

I think probably half the roster could do better with a change of scenery, simply because the biggest problem is that the roster is way too one-dimensional.

That is so true to an objective eye. Kudos. I want to like my team, then I watch these playoffs(and last year). UGH!

[fan2456]

Just saw end of caps game. Funny, they blocked an awful lot of shots when they shut down space on the guy with the puck. That geometry thing again. Hustle and commitment isn't a very brilliant system. Attack the man with the puck and play through him. A bigger body certainly cuts off more space.

[JJFIVEOH]

All these blocked shots to go along with a Vezina candidate and the Rangers still look average and lost today. Is it really an asset?

 

During the Sabres run towards the end of the season the D did a great job keeping pucks to the outside. To me that's more important than blocking shots. Too many injuries involved in blocking shots.

[drnkirishone]

Blocking shots is all well and good. But I prefer my shot blocks to come from weak desperate wrist shots from the side boards or the point. IMO having a aggresive presence on the puck carrier is better then any scheme calling for shot blocking

[deluca67]

Blocking shots is all well and good. But I prefer my shot blocks to come from weak desperate wrist shots from the side boards or the point. IMO having a aggresive presence on the puck carrier is better then any scheme calling for shot blocking

It's not just about a blocked shot or a hit, it's about the mentality that makes those things second nature to a player and a team. It's all part of the "little things" you hear referred to from time to time. Smart aggressive play is a formula for success in pretty much any sport. You can have two equally talented teams, one is willing to sacrifice the body to make a play and the other that relies mostly on their talent. The team willing to leave it all out on the ice is more likely, IMO, to come out on top especially in a 7 game series.

[fan2456]

It's not just about a blocked shot or a hit, it's about the mentality that makes those things second nature to a player and a team. It's all part of the "little things" you hear referred to from time to time. Smart aggressive play is a formula for success in pretty much any sport. You can have two equally talented teams, one is willing to sacrifice the body to make a play and the other that relies mostly on their talent. The team willing to leave it all out on the ice is more likely, IMO, to come out on top especially in a 7 game series.

:worthy: ;)

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

It's not just about a blocked shot or a hit, it's about the mentality that makes those things second nature to a player and a team. It's all part of the "little things" you hear referred to from time to time. Smart aggressive play is a formula for success in pretty much any sport. You can have two equally talented teams, one is willing to sacrifice the body to make a play and the other that relies mostly on their talent. The team willing to leave it all out on the ice is more likely, IMO, to come out on top especially in a 7 game series.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that not blocking shots is part of Lindy's system because it leaves you prone to being out of position. He would rather collapse and block the lanes, keeping guys on their feet. The thing is though, it is once again another passive aspect of play. Let the other team dictate the offensive zone, and you hoping THEY make a mistake which leads to opportunity. NY takes it to the other guys when they have a chance, and they work so hard, even when sprawled on the ice and bleeding, they spring back up. 3 guys were bleeding in that OT game, and kept coming.

 

Again, it's survival mentality against dominance mentality.

[deluca67]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that not blocking shots is part of Lindy's system because it leaves you prone to being out of position. He would rather collapse and block the lanes, keeping guys on their feet. The thing is though, it is once again another passive aspect of play. Let the other team dictate the offensive zone, and you hoping THEY make a mistake which leads to opportunity. NY takes it to the other guys when they have a chance, and they work so hard, even when sprawled on the ice and bleeding, they spring back up. 3 guys were bleeding in that OT game, and kept coming.

 

Again, it's survival mentality against dominance mentality.

I wonder how much the injury issue in the 2005-2006 playoffs has effected Ruff's thinking in a negative way. Coming out of the lockout the Sabres were top 10 in blocked shots finishing 6th and 8th respectively. Since then they have been in the bottom half of the league.

[X. Benedict]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that not blocking shots is part of Lindy's system because it leaves you prone to being out of position. He would rather collapse and block the lanes, keeping guys on their feet. The thing is though, it is once again another passive aspect of play. Let the other team dictate the offensive zone, and you hoping THEY make a mistake which leads to opportunity. NY takes it to the other guys when they have a chance, and they work so hard, even when sprawled on the ice and bleeding, they spring back up. 3 guys were bleeding in that OT game, and kept coming.

 

Again, it's survival mentality against dominance mentality.

 

I see the point, but Rangers are struggling against #7 seed, and the #8 seed took them to 7 games, and one could make a case that Washington has been the more physical team in their present series.

 

The Rangers have trouble scoring and haven't dominated a postseason game yet. At least not from my perspective.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I see the point, but Rangers are struggling against #7 seed, and the #8 seed took them to 7 games, and one could make a case that Washington has been the more physical team in their present series.

 

The Rangers have trouble scoring and haven't dominated a postseason game yet. At least not from my perspective.

 

They don't play a dominant style.....they just keep working...working...working......and they have the beef and effort to withstand it. I wouldn't say they are stuggling, they just aren't dominating, as they aren't built to dominate. They are a slow, steady, aircraft carrier that can send some cruise missiles in the form of Richards, Gaborik, and Hagelin. They just don't or want to give up much ground, but they are far from a boring trap team.

 

I just prefer to build my team in that image and enjoy the passion and hard work involved with consistant body checks, blocks, hitting the ice to breakup plays, etc. That's instinct to me. That's one of the biggest reasons I don't enjoy the Sabres much since '05-'06. They may have a valid model to some, but give me 15 guys who I see sweating and bleeding with 5 specialists over 5 guys sweating and bleeding and 15 guys who I need to be told are doing well because they are executing "the system".

 

Look at LA...they have the big horses as well....many who have talent. Phoenix, bruisers and grinders for the most part. Philly....a great mix. If it is NYR/PHI/LA/PHO as the final 4.....you are going to see validation in bigger guys who can take the grind and skill guys with fiestiness and the league may get even bigger and nastier going forward, Shannabans be darned.

 

I'm enjoying these games, and I'm glad the focus has been on the battles instead of the concussion fears for the most part, minus Ovechkin getting a pass.

[fan2456]

They don't play a dominant style.....they just keep working...working...working......and they have the beef and effort to withstand it. I wouldn't say they are stuggling, they just aren't dominating, as they aren't built to dominate. They are a slow, steady, aircraft carrier that can send some cruise missiles in the form of Richards, Gaborik, and Hagelin. They just don't or want to give up much ground, but they are far from a boring trap team.

 

I just prefer to build my team in that image and enjoy the passion and hard work involved with consistant body checks, blocks, hitting the ice to breakup plays, etc. That's instinct to me. That's one of the biggest reasons I don't enjoy the Sabres much since '05-'06. They may have a valid model to some, but give me 15 guys who I see sweating and bleeding with 5 specialists over 5 guys sweating and bleeding and 15 guys who I need to be told are doing well because they are executing "the system".

 

Look at LA...they have the big horses as well....many who have talent. Phoenix, bruisers and grinders for the most part. Philly....a great mix. If it is NYR/PHI/LA/PHO as the final 4.....you are going to see validation in bigger guys who can take the grind and skill guys with fiestiness and the league may get even bigger and nastier going forward, Shannabans be darned.

 

I'm enjoying these games, and I'm glad the focus has been on the battles instead of the concussion fears for the most part, minus Ovechkin getting a pass.

 

Dwiight, we are on the same page, I think. It is about big horses. I think Rangers are stuggling because they won by playing playoff hockey all year. Now they are facing a more talented team who is playing the same style. I don't enjoy the Sabres since 05=06 either. Why? Cuz Darcy's skilled fast whimps could play in that NHL and I will admit I loved that style when the rules allowed it.. The dumby is still struggling to catch up with today's NHL. And, he was lucky back then, and still way behind the curve.

[TrueBlueGED]

They don't play a dominant style.....they just keep working...working...working......and they have the beef and effort to withstand it. I wouldn't say they are stuggling, they just aren't dominating, as they aren't built to dominate. They are a slow, steady, aircraft carrier that can send some cruise missiles in the form of Richards, Gaborik, and Hagelin. They just don't or want to give up much ground, but they are far from a boring trap team.

 

I just prefer to build my team in that image and enjoy the passion and hard work involved with consistant body checks, blocks, hitting the ice to breakup plays, etc. That's instinct to me. That's one of the biggest reasons I don't enjoy the Sabres much since '05-'06. They may have a valid model to some, but give me 15 guys who I see sweating and bleeding with 5 specialists over 5 guys sweating and bleeding and 15 guys who I need to be told are doing well because they are executing "the system".

 

Look at LA...they have the big horses as well....many who have talent. Phoenix, bruisers and grinders for the most part. Philly....a great mix. If it is NYR/PHI/LA/PHO as the final 4.....you are going to see validation in bigger guys who can take the grind and skill guys with fiestiness and the league may get even bigger and nastier going forward, Shannabans be darned.

 

I'm enjoying these games, and I'm glad the focus has been on the battles instead of the concussion fears for the most part, minus Ovechkin getting a pass.

 

They may not play a pure trap, but they absolutely clog up the neutral zone with 4 guys and 1 forechecker a significant amount of the time. IF they go on to win the Cup, they'll be the lowest scoring team to do so since the 2003 Devils, and that's not an accident, it's due to the system they play.

 

And this is where we disagree. I loved the 05-07 Sabres because to me that was fun, exciting hockey. I fully understand the merits of playing a more controlled system, more grinding, less open, and so on...it's effective, it works (since the league stopped calling penalties anyway). But to me, it's not fun to watch. That isn't to say I like how the Sabres constantly spin off instead of finishing checks, or play with a general lack of aggression--I just don't like the dump and chase, clog the neutral zone style of play. I love watching the most talented players in the game turn slow, bruising defensemen into turnstyles. I can go watch almost any level of hockey to see grinding play, but I can't see all-world skill on display which is what I want to see when watching the NHL. I will agree, however, that Philly has a great mix, I may hate them but I love their style.

[drnkirishone]

Hitting and blocking shots are seperate things please don't lump them together. If the sabres exchange some of there softer forwards for some hit first poke check second type players I think defensive system will be fine.

 

Also its kind of insane to accuse Ruff's system of encouraging not blocking shots and then in the next sentence say they take away the lanes

[Sabre Dance]

Going slightly off-topic here, but does anyone else see a resemblance the play of the Devils against Philly and the 2005-2006 Sabres? The Devils blocked shots when they needed to, but they definitely sacrificed their bodies to make plays. The also skated circles around the Flyer defense. A beautiful thing.....

[RazielSabre]

Please use the phrase that makes sense, not the american one :P

 

+1, definitely agree with this :D

[fan2456]

Going slightly off-topic here, but does anyone else see a resemblance the play of the Devils against Philly and the 2005-2006 Sabres? The Devils blocked shots when they needed to, but they definitely sacrificed their bodies to make plays. The also skated circles around the Flyer defense. A beautiful thing.....

No I certainly don't.

[X. Benedict]

Going slightly off-topic here, but does anyone else see a resemblance the play of the Devils against Philly and the 2005-2006 Sabres? The Devils blocked shots when they needed to, but they definitely sacrificed their bodies to make plays. The also skated circles around the Flyer defense. A beautiful thing.....

 

Hmmm? Not that I noticed.

[RazielSabre]

Actually, I don't notice that. I notice we play soft in the defensive zone, chasing the guy with the puck and attempting to stick check him. And yes, opposing point men are always wide open because we do collapse so much. Basic geometry tells me that if you are closer to the guy with the puck, you block more of the shooting/passing lane. I believe this has something to do with why goalies like to get outside the paint and challenge the shooter. It isn't rocket science.

I just remember a few instances of players caught out of position, not covering their player and us getting scored on. I'm of the belief that if our team do a better job of keeping them to the outside or at least letting Miller see most of the shots then we'd be doing well, I'm not so sure shot blocking is as important. I think this, though, is why coaches have 'systems'. Lol.

[MattPie]

Also its kind of insane to accuse Ruff's system of encouraging not blocking shots and then in the next sentence say they take away the lanes

 

True, you cna't have it both ways.

 

Although, didn't someone do an analysis on the Corsi number and determine that a blocked shot is a negative for that stat? It could be that by using the Corsi number (which I'm fairly sure Regier does), you end up with players that aren't block-first types.

 

EDIT: http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/20792-advanced-statistics-the-corsi-number/

[TrueBlueGED]

True, you cna't have it both ways.

 

Although, didn't someone do an analysis on the Corsi number and determine that a blocked shot is a negative for that stat? It could be that by using the Corsi number (which I'm fairly sure Regier does), you end up with players that aren't block-first types.

 

EDIT: http://forums.sabres...e-corsi-number/

 

People really tend to misinterpret what a blocked shot being a negative in the Corsi number really means. As that post indicates, the Corsi is really just a measure of pressure. Blocking a shot in and of itself is not a bad thing, in fact it is very often a positive thing--which is why it really frosts some people that a blocked shot brings a player's Corsi down. But the Corsi is an aggregate measure, you can't just take that one portion of the measure and say it's useless, because that would be using it improperly.

 

For example, say a player has 6 blocked shots in a game and ends up with a -3 Corsi, while another player has 0 blocked shots and also has a -3 Corsi. Conventional wisdom may say "WTF how does somebody with 6 blocks get rated as poorly as somebody with 0? Those blocks are more valuable!" That may be the case, but it's also not what the Corsi is supposed to measure. In this hypothetical scenario, all the Corsi is saying is that both players were receiving more offensive pressure than they were generating on the opposition. While in the defensive zone, maybe player A's blocked shots are more valuable than whatever player B was doing at the time, but again, the Corsi isn't meant to measure the value of individual play in the defensive zone.

[spndnchz]

People really tend to misinterpret what a blocked shot being a negative in the Corsi number really means. As that post indicates, the Corsi is really just a measure of pressure. Blocking a shot in and of itself is not a bad thing, in fact it is very often a positive thing--which is why it really frosts some people that a blocked shot brings a player's Corsi down. But the Corsi is an aggregate measure, you can't just take that one portion of the measure and say it's useless, because that would be using it improperly.

 

For example, say a player has 6 blocked shots in a game and ends up with a -3 Corsi, while another player has 0 blocked shots and also has a -3 Corsi. Conventional wisdom may say "WTF how does somebody with 6 blocks get rated as poorly as somebody with 0? Those blocks are more valuable!" That may be the case, but it's also not what the Corsi is supposed to measure. In this hypothetical scenario, all the Corsi is saying is that both players were receiving more offensive pressure than they were generating on the opposition. While in the defensive zone, maybe player A's blocked shots are more valuable than whatever player B was doing at the time, but again, the Corsi isn't meant to measure the value of individual play in the defensive zone.

 

Anyone check out OV's Corsi?

:doh: