[OT] Joel Ward Goal , racist barrage

[Taro T]

I appreciate what you're saying. I can tell you that there was more than one moron who wrote letters - I've seen a shoebox full of them. But before we quibble on details, my point had less to do with Bruce and more to do with the fact that Buffalo and Western New York is not free from racism. It's very much alive and well up there and to believe otherwise is fantasy.

 

I never said they were. Please point me to the place on this globe that is.

 

There is still a LONG way to go to get to a 'colorblind' society here in the US and even further to go in most everywhere else. That being the case, we've made tremendous progress in our lifetimes. I am truly envious of my kids because I honestly expect that the country they inherit will be significantly less xenophobic than the one we grew up in and I trust that they and theirs will pass on a better one to my (hopefully) grandchildren eventually.

 

I have so much more I'd like to say on this subject, but just can't find the right words without coming up with a 40 or so page essay; so I guess I'll just leave it at that.

 

Yes, it always will exist. It's sad.

 

And it's not just an American thing, or a white-vs-black thing; it just happens. "I hate you and your people" is too easy. (But it's ok w/ Bruins fans, right?)

 

Ask our former poster from Nova Scotia, who took a LOT of offense from an innocuous and innocent post by korabrules. He (NS, not korab) carries a burden that we know very little about, just because of some "ethnic cleansing" in his parents' neighborhood.

 

That stuff is both inane and insane. And it's been going on since the dawn of man. It won't stop. The best we can do is rise above it, fight it when possible, and ignore those who perpetuate it.

 

We also need to be sensitive to the real problems, and not the imagined ones. That makes it tougher. A kid in Florida, as tragic as it is (and it IS--holy ######, it is!), shouldn't be the poster child for an anti-racism movement. A photograph of any downtown Buffalo office should (because the faces all will be white).

 

This city has a lot to do. I can't say the same about bigger cities. But, and I think I'm about as big a Buffalo booster as there is in this city, much less on this board (my posts support it), we have a problem here. We do not involve black people in our businesses at all. Politics? Sure. Black people can get a mayor elected. But that means ######. We need to integrate the talented, no matter what race, and keep them here. 20% of our best and brightest are leaving this city for no reason other than because their skin is dark. That needs to stop right now. We're getting killed out there, and it's not just because our taxes are high. It's also because we have closed minds.

Nice post. I've gotta start drinking scotch, 'cause you and Weave have stated stuff I'd like to say about this subject so much more eloquently than I ever could. It's gotta be the scotch. ;)

[TheChimp]

There's always going to be a certain segment of the population which holds prejudices, or acts outrageous, and gets media attention. As long as humans are humans there will be bigots and extremists, and nothing will change it.

Pax would change it. :ph34r:

[MichFan]

I believe we are at a point in society where racism is fairly evenly balanced across all races. Which is to say that every race has it's share of people who are racist against others. The media is only interested when the source of racism is a Caucasian, so society gets a very unbalanced picture of racism in America. Not in any way defending the comments about Ward, they are disgusting.

[Guest Sloth]

Just to solidify the Boston stereotype with one specific anecdote, I have a buddy I know from college who is from the sticks of Mass and he's the most openly racist person I've ever met. I remember when Obama was running for election he was running around the house we lived in yelling things like "I can't wait to get an Obama Christmas ornament so I can hang a n*gger from a tree!", and all sorts of other genuinely offensive things. He always tells the story about how the first black man he ever saw was on the Cosby show and he didn't believe they were real.

 

I think if you were to go down south you'd see a lot more of it. And by south I mean past the thruway, maybe Marilla area.

 

 

 

Also, just to go back to a conversation that was had here once, maybe last summer, the Confederate Flag is essentially a big banner saying "hey I'm a racist". Even if you think you're not a racist, your displaying of the flag (outside of historical situations) means that you've come to terms with the fact that doing so will get you labeled as a racist. Accepting that label essentially makes you one.

 

I have to say I strongly disagree w/ this. I grew up as a "military brat." I've lived as far west as Las Vegas, Nevada, as far north as Plattsburgh, NY and as far south as Biloxi, MS. What I'm trying to say is I got to experience many types of cultures. What bothers me is the extreme stereotype given to people in the south. Before my family, originally from Tonawanda, moved to Biloxi, I had the same belief many people across country have and that is the idea the south being the definition of racism. This, after living in the south for 17 years, I've come to realize this is not true. What I did learn is racism exists all across country, and it's arguably at the same level as the south.

When I went to Highland elementary and Tonawanda jr. high, I can honestly say I do not remember one african-american student attending those schools. Man, I've only had a couple of african-american teachers as I attended school across the country. One can easily argue unofficial segregation on that. I remember people in Tonawanda, Las Vegas, and Plattsurgh having some people, thankfully on the low end of percentage, openly admitting they were racist or hiding the fact they are racist. What I'm trying to say is racism exists across the entire country and it is arguably at the same level across the country.

As for the "Confederate Flag," it is now nothing more than a display of the southern culture. It no longer has the meaning it had 147 years ago. Things change over time. People change over time. Many minorities in the south take pride in the flag that once involved racism and many other bad things. In fact, in the latter portion of the 1990's or early 2000's, some minorities, including whites, tried to have the confederate flag removed from MS's state flag. This was easily shutdown, because many, not all, minorities and whites viewed the flag as nothing more than display of southern culture. It is something many take pride in. Simply put, the "confederate flag" no longer exist. It is now northing more than a representation southern culture. Again, things and people change over time.

[tmac8]

While he was that, I can't think of another African American to play in the league before him.

 

I can think of 4 African Canadians ottomh: O'Ree, Marson, McKegney, and Fuhr; but I can't readily come up w/ another AA.

 

Here's another interesting bit of "early hockey" history:

 

http://www.blackpast.org/?q=gah/coloured-hockey-league-maritimes-1890s-1920s

 

It's good to see some smart discusison on this, and I'd like to chime in a little bit on this as well if you guys and gals don't mind. I've been a black hockey fan, well, all my life. (and that's starting to feel like a long time now) Born in Boston, grew up in Buffalo and DC, and eventually moved to Atlanta..I've been bleeding blue and gold since the early 80's. I hate the bruins. I was at this game: (John Tucker scored 4)

 

 

I grew up walking to the Aud, and being driven out to the Capital Centre. When I lived in Boston, my dad wouldn't take me to Boston Garden. Some black kids on the east side of Buffalo used to play street hockey in parking lots just like everyone else. I learned how to stick handle on icy streets 2 blocks from the old Rockpile.

 

WIth all of that said, watching Joel Ward clinch the series was sweet redemption for those of us who are African Americans that love hockey, and know the levels of ignorance that surrounds our involvement in the game at all levels. The reponse by cyber idiots was not a surprise, and as everyone here is discusssing, simply reveals the deep and entrenched degree of ugliness still existing in our society. Yes prejudice will always exist, and segments of all ethnicities can and will show biases against others. However, I just want to point out that racism is a disease with deeper effects than name calling. The effects of racism can lead to physical, mental, and economic problems that have broad implications in society.

 

Example:

Prejudice = name calling on some website. Result = So what, no real effect.

Racism = Racial profiling by corrupt cops and others (resulting from race based prejudices) Result = Unecessary jail or morgue time for young men, generational distrust of law enforcement systems.

 

You may not see the difference, but it is real, I can tell you. Our country was socially and economically built on raced based prejudices, that led to bigger problems we're still trying to fix, so it's difficult to split the two apart. If we were in Ireland, we'd be dealing with Catholics & Protestants.

 

So it's kinda simple: There will always be idiots. And there will always be black hockey players. At some point, and I'm not sure we're there yet, we won't need to stress either fact.

[fan2456]

Go Ward, beat the Rangers

[Fire Lindy Ruff NOW]

Go Ward, beat the Rangers

nooooo, only because i dislike ovechkin. that dirty jerk.

[Eleven]

Here's another interesting bit of "early hockey" history:

 

http://www.blackpast...mes-1890s-1920s

 

It's good to see some smart discusison on this, and I'd like to chime in a little bit on this as well if you guys and gals don't mind. I've been a black hockey fan, well, all my life. (and that's starting to feel like a long time now) Born in Boston, grew up in Buffalo and DC, and eventually moved to Atlanta..I've been bleeding blue and gold since the early 80's. I hate the bruins. I was at this game: (John Tucker scored 4)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdXs_dKsx8

 

I grew up walking to the Aud, and being driven out to the Capital Centre. When I lived in Boston, my dad wouldn't take me to Boston Garden. Some black kids on the east side of Buffalo used to play street hockey in parking lots just like everyone else. I learned how to stick handle on icy streets 2 blocks from the old Rockpile.

 

WIth all of that said, watching Joel Ward clinch the series was sweet redemption for those of us who are African Americans that love hockey, and know the levels of ignorance that surrounds our involvement in the game at all levels. The reponse by cyber idiots was not a surprise, and as everyone here is discusssing, simply reveals the deep and entrenched degree of ugliness still existing in our society. Yes prejudice will always exist, and segments of all ethnicities can and will show biases against others. However, I just want to point out that racism is a disease with deeper effects than name calling. The effects of racism can lead to physical, mental, and economic problems that have broad implications in society.

 

Example:

Prejudice = name calling on some website. Result = So what, no real effect.

Racism = Racial profiling by corrupt cops and others (resulting from race based prejudices) Result = Unecessary jail or morgue time for young men, generational distrust of law enforcement systems.

 

You may not see the difference, but it is real, I can tell you. Our country was socially and economically built on raced based prejudices, that led to bigger problems we're still trying to fix, so it's difficult to split the two apart. If we were in Ireland, we'd be dealing with Catholics & Protestants.

 

So it's kinda simple: There will always be idiots. And there will always be black hockey players. At some point, and I'm not sure we're there yet, we won't need to stress either fact.

 

1. Thanks very much for your perspective. I really liked it.

 

2. (This will be long.) There's a reason you're in Atlanta. I mean, I realize that a lot of people flee Buffalo because there's more money elsewhere. I did it for a long time, myself. I came back, but I'm white. If I weren't white, I'm not sure I'd have the same opportunities here. In Atlanta, or in a lot of other large cities, color seems to mean less. Talent rules, and the talented make the rules. But in Buffalo--which, again, look at my past posts, I love this city and will promote it until I'm wormfood--there is a problem.

 

We do not do a good job of integrating so-called "different" people in this city. We need to be better. We BADLY need to be better. We send talented people out, all the time. FFS, we (Buffalonians, not Sabres fans) need to get better with this.

 

It's complete BS that the only black guys in suits that I see downtown every day are judges or the mayor. It's complete BS that we have very few black businesspersons in leadership roles. There is NO way that anyone can tell me that we don't have the talent pool, especially with UB next door.

 

If we want a sports analogy, and why the hell not, seeing as it's a hockey board: It's like leaving 23% of your best players on the bench.

 

We, as a community, need to get better about this. Now, not later.

[I am Defecting]

I lived in Buffalo for over 5 years, and it didn't seem very racist to me. The West side of Buffalo where I lived is a melting pot, though. I suspect there is some racism, and reverse racism going on in the East side, though, because any time that I would get drunk and end up lost on the east side of Main St. the locals would say, like, "you need to get the ###### out of here before you get shot, homes." The East side, unfortunately, I wasn't able to explore on my bicycle like so many other districts of Buffalo.

 

Boston on the other hand, might have more distinct class lines than Buffalo. Each neighborhood or suburb seems to have its own identity, and baggage that goes with it in Boston.

[Eleven]

I lived in Buffalo for over 5 years, and it didn't seem very racist to me. The West side of Buffalo where I lived is a melting pot, though. I suspect there is some racism, and reverse racism going on in the East side, though, because any time that I would get drunk and end up lost on the east side of Main St. the locals would say, like, "you need to get the ###### out of here before you get shot, homes." The East side, unfortunately, I wasn't able to explore on my bicycle like so many other districts of Buffalo.

 

Boston on the other hand, might have more distinct class lines than Buffalo. Each neighborhood or suburb seems to have its own identity, and baggage that goes with it in Boston.

 

There is "street level" racism, which is as disgusting as any other form. But it is very difficult to fight. People hate people who are different, and the poorer, the more the hatred. (No, I don't have a study to cite to. But tell me I'm wrong on that one.)

 

Then there is implicit racism in a community. That's what I was writing about, and that's what I want to change. Economically, Buffalo hurts because it is poorly integrated. We have too many short-sighted people in charge, even if Brown is black. (He's not really in charge. Not even close.)

[tmac8]

1. Thanks very much for your perspective. I really liked it.

 

2. (This will be long.) There's a reason you're in Atlanta. I mean, I realize that a lot of people flee Buffalo because there's more money elsewhere. I did it for a long time, myself. I came back, but I'm white. If I weren't white, I'm not sure I'd have the same opportunities here. In Atlanta, or in a lot of other large cities, color seems to mean less. Talent rules, and the talented make the rules. But in Buffalo--which, again, look at my past posts, I love this city and will promote it until I'm wormfood--there is a problem.

 

We do not do a good job of integrating so-called "different" people in this city. We need to be better. We BADLY need to be better. We send talented people out, all the time. FFS, we (Buffalonians, not Sabres fans) need to get better with this.

 

It's complete BS that the only black guys in suits that I see downtown every day are judges or the mayor. It's complete BS that we have very few black businesspersons in leadership roles. There is NO way that anyone can tell me that we don't have the talent pool, especially with UB next door.

 

If we want a sports analogy, and why the hell not, seeing as it's a hockey board: It's like leaving 23% of your best players on the bench.

 

We, as a community, need to get better about this. Now, not later.

 

Eleven,

 

Thanks for your response. A few points:

 

1.Of all the places I've lived, (and I'm actually back in DC), I had the most overt race issues in Boston and Buffalo. I moved to Atlanta partly because of this, and equally so because of the economics that have been mentioned by several in this discussion. Again, hard to separate the two from your world view if it's hard to walk down the street....Despite all that, I defend Buffalo against the media warped image it has, because all cities have good and bad points.

 

2.The way race plays out in the south is much different, and is a bit of a paradox: There are many more African Americans, so people are used to being around us, but there is still a lot of political and social hang over from the "old days" of my parents generation..In the south, it's also as much about the transients and newcomers vs the natives as it is anything else, and it's all wrapped up together.

 

3. The last point leads back to hockey. I went to 20 Thrashers games a year for 10 of the 11 years they were around, and watched the interest among African Americans grow..Granted, this didn't amount to half an arena full of us, but it was way more than anything I experienced growing up. This coupled with the recent growth in black players, and I think the game, and society is on the right path. it's just a long, winding, never ending one. I met Dustin Byfuglien last month when the Jets were in DC and told him to keep doing what he was doing, and how much it meant. His eyes lit up. Guys like Simmonds, Kane, Ward, are carrying on where the Griers, Carters, and Weekes left it for them, and so on, back to Fuhr, McKegney, James, O'Ree, etc...

 

Anyway, I just hope this team gets it together next year. More stones, more heart..The city and fans deserve the damn chalice.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Yes, it always will exist. It's sad.

 

And it's not just an American thing, or a white-vs-black thing; it just happens. "I hate you and your people" is too easy. (But it's ok w/ Bruins fans, right?)

 

Ask our former poster from Nova Scotia, who took a LOT of offense from an innocuous and innocent post by korabrules. He (NS, not korab) carries a burden that we know very little about, just because of some "ethnic cleansing" in his parents' neighborhood.

 

That stuff is both inane and insane. And it's been going on since the dawn of man. It won't stop. The best we can do is rise above it, fight it when possible, and ignore those who perpetuate it.

 

 

Hi Eleven,

 

I'm not officially back to the board yet, but wanted to address your post.

 

Regarding the first underlined part of your post.

 

Thank you. You seem to understand my position.

 

Did you do some looking into what happened during the Bosnian war? In my mind ethnic cleansing is the worst manifestation of racism. It was the ultimate goal in the Bosnian war.

 

As for your last point concerning ignoring those who perpetuate racism ...

 

If we do it will certainly continue and may even escalate to the point it reached in Bosnia. With the right mix of a number of factors it could reach the boiling point anywhere.

[Taro T]

I appreciate what you're saying. I can tell you that there was more than one moron who wrote letters - I've seen a shoebox full of them. But before we quibble on details, my point had less to do with Bruce and more to do with the fact that Buffalo and Western New York is not free from racism. It's very much alive and well up there and to believe otherwise is fantasy.

Upon further review, yes there was more than 1 idiot that sent Bruce Smith the letters in '91. I stand corrected on that point.

 

I still think raising other examples, such as Grant Fuhr not getting invited to join a country club, support your case better.

 

Here's another interesting bit of "early hockey" history:

 

http://www.blackpast...mes-1890s-1920s

 

It's good to see some smart discusison on this, and I'd like to chime in a little bit on this as well if you guys and gals don't mind. I've been a black hockey fan, well, all my life. (and that's starting to feel like a long time now) Born in Boston, grew up in Buffalo and DC, and eventually moved to Atlanta..I've been bleeding blue and gold since the early 80's. I hate the bruins. I was at this game: (John Tucker scored 4)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdXs_dKsx8

 

I grew up walking to the Aud, and being driven out to the Capital Centre. When I lived in Boston, my dad wouldn't take me to Boston Garden. Some black kids on the east side of Buffalo used to play street hockey in parking lots just like everyone else. I learned how to stick handle on icy streets 2 blocks from the old Rockpile.

 

WIth all of that said, watching Joel Ward clinch the series was sweet redemption for those of us who are African Americans that love hockey, and know the levels of ignorance that surrounds our involvement in the game at all levels. The reponse by cyber idiots was not a surprise, and as everyone here is discusssing, simply reveals the deep and entrenched degree of ugliness still existing in our society. Yes prejudice will always exist, and segments of all ethnicities can and will show biases against others. However, I just want to point out that racism is a disease with deeper effects than name calling. The effects of racism can lead to physical, mental, and economic problems that have broad implications in society.

 

Example:

Prejudice = name calling on some website. Result = So what, no real effect.

Racism = Racial profiling by corrupt cops and others (resulting from race based prejudices) Result = Unecessary jail or morgue time for young men, generational distrust of law enforcement systems.

 

You may not see the difference, but it is real, I can tell you. Our country was socially and economically built on raced based prejudices, that led to bigger problems we're still trying to fix, so it's difficult to split the two apart. If we were in Ireland, we'd be dealing with Catholics & Protestants.

 

So it's kinda simple: There will always be idiots. And there will always be black hockey players. At some point, and I'm not sure we're there yet, we won't need to stress either fact.

Eleven,

 

Thanks for your response. A few points:

 

1.Of all the places I've lived, (and I'm actually back in DC), I had the most overt race issues in Boston and Buffalo. I moved to Atlanta partly because of this, and equally so because of the economics that have been mentioned by several in this discussion. Again, hard to separate the two from your world view if it's hard to walk down the street....Despite all that, I defend Buffalo against the media warped image it has, because all cities have good and bad points.

 

2.The way race plays out in the south is much different, and is a bit of a paradox: There are many more African Americans, so people are used to being around us, but there is still a lot of political and social hang over from the "old days" of my parents generation..In the south, it's also as much about the transients and newcomers vs the natives as it is anything else, and it's all wrapped up together.

 

3. The last point leads back to hockey. I went to 20 Thrashers games a year for 10 of the 11 years they were around, and watched the interest among African Americans grow..Granted, this didn't amount to half an arena full of us, but it was way more than anything I experienced growing up. This coupled with the recent growth in black players, and I think the game, and society is on the right path. it's just a long, winding, never ending one. I met Dustin Byfuglien last month when the Jets were in DC and told him to keep doing what he was doing, and how much it meant. His eyes lit up. Guys like Simmonds, Kane, Ward, are carrying on where the Griers, Carters, and Weekes left it for them, and so on, back to Fuhr, McKegney, James, O'Ree, etc...

 

Anyway, I just hope this team gets it together next year. More stones, more heart..The city and fans deserve the damn chalice.

Thanks for the link in the 1st post. Interesting stuff.

 

Appreciate your comments and the discussion as well. The one thing I'll take issue with that you've said above is that "(t)he city and fans deserve the damn chalice." I don't believe any fanbase "deserves" a championship; though there are some that deserve NOT seeing a championship. I'd put Sabres' fans in the 1st category, not the 2nd.

[tmac8]

Upon further review, yes there was more than 1 idiot that sent Bruce Smith the letters in '91. I stand corrected on that point.

 

I still think raising other examples, such as Grant Fuhr not getting invited to join a country club, support your case better.

 

 

 

Thanks for the link in the 1st post. Interesting stuff.

 

Appreciate your comments and the discussion as well. The one thing I'll take issue with that you've said above is that "(t)he city and fans deserve the damn chalice." I don't believe any fanbase "deserves" a championship; though there are some that deserve NOT seeing a championship. I'd put Sabres' fans in the 1st category, not the 2nd.

 

 

Fair enough, Taro.

 

Like many with ties to Buffalo, I've got 3 generations of sports related heartbreak in my family, and think dues have been paid. Maybe "deserves" is not objectively accurate (only the players play afterall), but I'll stick to my guns on it!!

[Campy]

I have to say I strongly disagree w/ this. I grew up as a "military brat." I've lived as far west as Las Vegas, Nevada, as far north as Plattsburgh, NY and as far south as Biloxi, MS. What I'm trying to say is I got to experience many types of cultures. What bothers me is the extreme stereotype given to people in the south. Before my family, originally from Tonawanda, moved to Biloxi, I had the same belief many people across country have and that is the idea the south being the definition of racism. This, after living in the south for 17 years, I've come to realize this is not true. What I did learn is racism exists all across country, and it's arguably at the same level as the south.

When I went to Highland elementary and Tonawanda jr. high, I can honestly say I do not remember one african-american student attending those schools. Man, I've only had a couple of african-american teachers as I attended school across the country. One can easily argue unofficial segregation on that. I remember people in Tonawanda, Las Vegas, and Plattsurgh having some people, thankfully on the low end of percentage, openly admitting they were racist or hiding the fact they are racist. What I'm trying to say is racism exists across the entire country and it is arguably at the same level across the country.

As for the "Confederate Flag," it is now nothing more than a display of the southern culture. It no longer has the meaning it had 147 years ago. Things change over time. People change over time. Many minorities in the south take pride in the flag that once involved racism and many other bad things. In fact, in the latter portion of the 1990's or early 2000's, some minorities, including whites, tried to have the confederate flag removed from MS's state flag. This was easily shutdown, because many, not all, minorities and whites viewed the flag as nothing more than display of southern culture. It is something many take pride in. Simply put, the "confederate flag" no longer exist. It is now northing more than a representation southern culture. Again, things and people change over time.

:huh:

 

What your referring to is The Battleflag of the Confederacy. Its stars represent the states that seceded from the Union. Not everybody knows that, but neither ignorance nor time does not change what it is. Simply put, it does exist.

 

And that leads me to my question: Exactly which part of "southern culture" do you believe The Battleflag of the Confederacy represents?

[Taro T]

Fair enough, Taro.

 

Like many with ties to Buffalo, I've got 3 generations of sports related heartbreak in my family, and think dues have been paid. Maybe "deserves" is not objectively accurate (only the players play afterall), but I'll stick to my guns on it!!

Fair enough.

 

:beer:

[X. Benedict]

Thought this was interesting ...

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/05/dealing_with_racial_slurs_the_nhl_way.html

[darksabre]

Thought this was interesting ...

 

http://www.americant...he_nhl_way.html

 

Good read, thanks for posting it.

[RazielSabre]

Humanity always has and always will find ways to segregate and separate each other into tribes and groups, its part of our nature. The fact is most people do not condone racism, sexism or homophobia and that shows that despite that there is a huge amount of good in most people, whatever we think of each others opinions on Ruff or Regier lol.

 

Also this is sports and it doesn't matter who scored that goal whatever makes them different was going to be used as abuse. Just like in school.