This Penguins / Flyers Series Is Exactly Why It Hurts

[fan2456]

You had it right. Drury and Briere were both signed very early on July 1. Vanek didn't get an offer from Edm until days later.

Yea, I thought July 1 was Sunday, and it was on my way home from work the following Friday in the early afternoon when my son and I discussed the Vanek signing via cell phone and wishing we would have taken the picks. Frightening, I remember where I was for Sabres' events like I do a National crisis. Or, at least I think I do!

[inkman]

Note to the Sabres: "Significant changes" is what the Flyers did last year. It's not trading Chris Butler and resisting your urge to re-sign Tim Connolly.

Yep. Let's move Roy and Vanek and do something significant with the draft picks.

[fan2456]

Yep. Let's move Roy and Vanek and do something significant with the draft picks.

Great idea

[nobody]

If the Penguins don't win game 4, the series is pretty much over. :)

[fan2456]

If the Penguins don't win game 4, the series is pretty much over. :)

:P

[CallawaySabres]

 

Yep. Let's move Roy and Vanek and do something significant with the draft picks.

 

This is exactly what I mean, rid this team of the center of the core and bring back acouple guys who may score less goals themselves but supply more for others. Add more size and watch players like Ennis, Hodgson and Leino thrive...

 

[JJBuffalo]

I think the Sabres can learn something from the Flyers. Looking at their top 2/3 lines they consist of a shifty playmaker(Briere, Giroux), a talented scorer(Jagr, schenn/van riemsdyk), and a big physical winger(Hartnell/Simmons). Even their third line of Read, Couterier and Schenn when van riemsdyk is healthy. This is exactly how our line of Ennis, Stafford and Foligno flourished. The Flyers just have 3 lines like this! So we may have already added one shifty playmaking center in Hodgson but I'm hoping we can have 3 lines in this mold next yr. Ennis, Foligno, Stafford. Hodgson, Vanek and XXXXX?. Roy(trade), Leino, Pominville. We are only 2 moves away from having 3 lines in this makeup and improving overall toughness, which everyone knows we need to improve. #1 is get a winger in the mold of (Simmons/Hartnell) maybe Ryan Malone?? 2. Get rid of Roy and get a bigger physical Center to play with Leino Pominville.

[Eleven]

If the Penguins don't win game 4, the series is pretty much over. :)

 

Nobody thinks the Pens could overcome a 4-0 lead in game 5?

 

I think the Sabres can learn something from the Flyers. Looking at their top 2/3 lines they consist of a shifty playmaker(Briere, Giroux), a talented scorer(Jagr, schenn/van riemsdyk), and a big physical winger(Hartnell/Simmons). Even their third line of Read, Couterier and Schenn when van riemsdyk is healthy. This is exactly how our line of Ennis, Stafford and Foligno flourished. The Flyers just have 3 lines like this! So we may have already added one shifty playmaking center in Hodgson but I'm hoping we can have 3 lines in this mold next yr. Ennis, Foligno, Stafford. Hodgson, Vanek and XXXXX?. Roy(trade), Leino, Pominville. We are only 2 moves away from having 3 lines in this makeup and improving overall toughness, which everyone knows we need to improve. #1 is get a winger in the mold of (Simmons/Hartnell) maybe Ryan Malone?? 2. Get rid of Roy and get a bigger physical Center to play with Leino Pominville.

 

Filly learned something from the Sabres, actually.

 

And now, our favorite team has to play catchup.

[JJBuffalo]

Nobody thinks the Pens could overcome a 4-0 lead in game 5?

 

 

 

Filly learned something from the Sabres, actually.

 

And now, our favorite team has to play catchup.

 

True.. Philly kept re-signing Gill and Hatcher and we skated in circles around them. But watching these games you can see how the physical forwards open up ice for their scorers.

[JJFIVEOH]

Reagrding the Giroux discussion....... hindsight sure can be convenient after the fact. ;)

[Trettioåtta]

You're saying their goal was to score less goals this year than last year?

 

So your point is that even though the GM purposefully acquired all of these players, he shouldn't get credit for their high level of play because each is playing better than anyone would have thought.

 

Here's the problem with that: In this case "anyone" just means you. You didn't think these guys could play this well. Obviously the Flyers GM disagreed and that's why he drafted or acquired them. You can't belittle his accomplishments because he rated the players higher (and more accurately, it turns out) than you did and you don't think that's fair.

 

Also, Jagr didn't just "join" the team. They went out and got him. It's not like he just showed up for training camp and they just decided it would be easier to let him play for the team.

 

This better be the plan. If the plan is to assemble this team and have them score the same points that they did this year forever, then that's a horrible plan.

 

Player attitudes are very clearly "hockey related."

 

Well, history didn't begin last summer. They had guys to trade because they'd been building a better team for years.

 

They whooped our ass in the playoffs (which was only close because Miller stole 2 games and they went through 3 awful goalies) and decided they could still do even better.

 

Yes, i think the moves they made in the offseason were designed to make them a more defensive team - look at the Bryz contract

He didn't rate the players that highly, he got them more cheaply, so yes he may have valued them and got a bargain, but i just don't think when he sat down with the coach he said "we expect and predict Simmonds will have 12 less points, 2 more goals than Vanek and he will double his goal total from last year"

 

I don't think they sat down and said....We expect Giroux to be a top three in points - i am sure they expected 80+, but top three is something special.

 

Jagr did pretty much join their team, the management went after him, but so did 10 others, if not more and based on his contract, it is not like they offered him anything that amazing or lucrative, so yes, he joined them.

 

Getting shipped off because you will not agree to abstaining from any and all alcohol has very little to do with hockey (on a side note, i think it is an actual disgrace they ever came up with that system in the first place - what an easy way to divide a locker room)

 

Yes, i agree that the reason they could trade those players was because they drafted better than us - we have barely had a first rounder who was not a bust. But i still don't think Gms should receive too much credit for how a player in the late first/2nd/early 3rd round turns out, it seems too much like luck - look at Weber, probably the most desired defenceman in the league right now and every Gm passed on him at least once...

[RazielSabre]

Seeing these two teams run through each other is exactly why I wanted the Sabres (with this group) to make it. Buffalo would have had about 3 guys who were not on IR by the end of it. I wanted Buffalo to run into a Boston, Philly or Pitt so there could have been a gauge with the current roster.

 

Did not think I would be posting again until July but just could not resist after watching this series. Back to vaca and hopefully catching another Tarpon in Boca Grande!

We could have taken down NYR or NJD imho, anyone else would have just run us over. Our season series with Boston highlighted enough issues plus getting hammered by Philly most of the time (at least it feels that way, I dont know the series score).

[Marvelo]

whoever was responsible for losing Briere pretty much lost our franchise elite status. we haven't had a clue how to get back there ever since.

[MattPie]

To me, that's where good coaching comes in. Philly seems ready to respond and counter whatever the Penguins want to bring and they have, so far, frustrated them.

 

FWIW, a *lot* of people around here complain about Lavi, saying he doesn't manage his goaltending well and gives the wrong players too much ice time among other things. :-)

[RazielSabre]

FWIW, a *lot* of people around here complain about Lavi, saying he doesn't manage his goaltending well and gives the wrong players too much ice time among other things. :-)

While I tend to agree I see no rivalry more heated or bitter than Flyers-Pens. I thought it'd be closer than this though. Just shows how dependent on their freewheeling style the Penguins are.

[TheChimp]

Flyers are playing defense, that's the only difference in their series. And Pittsburgh is spoiled and playing like they expected the wins to just materialize.

[Punch]

I don't think the difference in the series is that the Flyers are playing defense--- on the contrary, they are giving up an average of 4 goals per game, much of which came in the early going of each. The sieve-like goaltending and defense of the Pens plus their emotional fragility has opened up so much ice for the Flyers that they've skated roughshod all over Pittsburgh. Opening up big late leads in the past two games has made it much easier to defend the shellshocked Penguins.

 

I have to think bout Fleury and Letang are still hurt--- it's the only explanation for how lost they've looked, and Philly has the horses to take advantage. Shoddy goaltending can destroy the confidence of even the most battle tested hockey players.

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't think the difference in the series is that the Flyers are playing defense--- on the contrary, they are giving up an average of 4 goals per game, much of which came in the early going of each. The sieve-like goaltending and defense of the Pens plus their emotional fragility has opened up so much ice for the Flyers that they've skated roughshod all over Pittsburgh. Opening up big late leads in the past two games has made it much easier to defend the shellshocked Penguins.

 

I have to think bout Fleury and Letang are still hurt--- it's the only explanation for how lost they've looked, and Philly has the horses to take advantage. Shoddy goaltending can destroy the confidence of even the most battle tested hockey players.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Fleury, in 6 postseasons (including this year), has only had a save % above .900 twice--their back to back Cup run. Outside of 07-08 when the Pens made their 1st Cup with the current roster, his best GAA was 2.52 last year. Throughout his career, the numbers say he simply hasn't been very good in the playoffs. And maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but I remember Letang being quite shaky defensively in the past during the playoffs as well. Maybe they're just not great playoff performers? It certainly wouldn't be the first time a star (Letang) or borderline star (Fleury) wasn't good enough in the playoffs.

[Punch]

I'm not so sure about that. Fleury, in 6 postseasons (including this year), has only had a save % above .900 twice--their back to back Cup run. Outside of 07-08 when the Pens made their 1st Cup with the current roster, his best GAA was 2.52 last year. Throughout his career, the numbers say he simply hasn't been very good in the playoffs. And maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but I remember Letang being quite shaky defensively in the past during the playoffs as well. Maybe they're just not great playoff performers? It certainly wouldn't be the first time a star (Letang) or borderline star (Fleury) wasn't good enough in the playoffs.

 

That very well could be--- but they've both just returned from injuries and Fleury struggled down the stretch when he did play. Fleury may have reverted behind a shaky D, but Letang doesn't look at all like the same player. Whatever the case, the shakiness has become infectious and clearly Bylsma isn't immune to it, either.

[TheChimp]

When I said Philly was playing defense, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that Philly was playing SOME defense, as opposed to NO defense, which seems to be Pittsburgh's plan of action this series. Both goalies are swiss cheese, but Philly has just that many more obstacles in front of their goalie than Pitt does, is what I meant.

[Punch]

When I said Philly was playing defense, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that Philly was playing SOME defense, as opposed to NO defense, which seems to be Pittsburgh's plan of action this series. Both goalies are swiss cheese, but Philly has just that many more obstacles in front of their goalie than Pitt does, is what I meant.

 

That's true--- when the Flyers have had to shut things down they've clogged up the lanes pretty well. Coutourier has been a revelation tracking Malkin.

[dudacek]

 

So your point is that even though the GM purposefully acquired all of these players, he shouldn't get credit for their high level of play because each is playing better than anyone would have thought.

 

 

Don't overrate the skill and planning of a GM. I went to the '06 draft. We spent a lot of the first part laughing at a certain NHL GM who literally looked like he was dozing off at his table. Wasn't on the phone, wasn't walking the floor, wasn't even talking to his staff.

The punch line was when he went to the microphone to announce his pick and he couldn't even remember the name of the guy he was trying to draft.

Had to leave the mike to ask his line-up of scouts for confirmation.

The GM was Bobby Clarke. The pick, Claude Giroux.

[Eleven]

Don't overrate the skill and planning of a GM. I went to the '06 draft. We spent a lot of the first part laughing at a certain NHL GM who literally looked like he was dozing off at his table. Wasn't on the phone, wasn't walking the floor, wasn't even talking to his staff.

The punch line was when he went to the microphone to announce his pick and he couldn't even remember the name of the guy he was trying to draft.

Had to leave the mike to ask his line-up of scouts for confirmation.

The GM was Bobby Clarke. The pick, Claude Giroux.

 

Wow.

 

Good thing he didn't have video scouts.

[Robviously]

Don't overrate the skill and planning of a GM. I went to the '06 draft. We spent a lot of the first part laughing at a certain NHL GM who literally looked like he was dozing off at his table. Wasn't on the phone, wasn't walking the floor, wasn't even talking to his staff.

The punch line was when he went to the microphone to announce his pick and he couldn't even remember the name of the guy he was trying to draft.

Had to leave the mike to ask his line-up of scouts for confirmation.

The GM was Bobby Clarke. The pick, Claude Giroux.

I don't. I think there are fans (including a few people on this message board) who could probably do the job.

 

My point is that if a GM goes out of his way to trade for players, sign players, and draft players -- he should get credit for what those players do. You can't downplay the success of the moves if they happen to work out better than was predicted by the consensus opinion. Let's go ahead and judge the moves by how they work out. Isn't that how pretty much everything in life works?

 

EDIT: BTW, the 2006 NHL draft was spectacular for the Sabres. Dennis Persson in the first round! :doh:

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't. I think there are fans (including a few people on this message board) who could probably do the job.

 

My point is that if a GM goes out of his way to trade for players, sign players, and draft players -- he should get credit for what those players do. You can't downplay the success of the moves if they happen to work out better than was predicted by the consensus opinion. Let's go ahead and judge the moves by how they work out. Isn't that how pretty much everything in life works?

 

EDIT: BTW, the 2006 NHL draft was spectacular for the Sabres. Dennis Persson in the first round! :doh:

 

Well, it beats Marek Zagrapan.......yes, I know, the bar is so low with that you can't even trip over it. But still, it could be worse!