Enroth Disappointed

[JJFIVEOH]

And it has nothing to do with being overworked, or Lindy's bad rotation. Being bulldozed by Lucic, run by Gomez, and having a shot knock you square in the head has nothing to do with the team relying too much on him. Miller has missed significant time, but you're wrong as to the reason why.

 

Funny, I don't remember giving a reason.

[TrueBlueGED]

I agree with you in that trading Miller might be difficult. But it was merely a proposal on my part because nobody knows what teams will do during the offseason, nobody knows what Miller really wants and nobody really knows who will be looking for somebody like Miller.

 

I mocked the idea of tanking because it was asinine. Purposely losing for the sake of an unknown is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the fact the draft pick would most likely be used on a forward. Enroth is not an unknown. And obviously it would require bringing in a veteran backup or somebody to split the duties.

 

 

If that trend does reverse it won't really matter because Miller won't be here. Then what?

 

The idea of tanking for an unknown is ridiculous. But the idea of trading for an unknown isn't? To the extent that Enroth can handle the load as a #1, he is a complete unknown. And who says Miller won't be here?

 

Funny, I don't remember giving a reason.

Exactly. And therein lies a big problem with the Sabres. They rely too much on Miller and he seems to have difficulty staying healthy through an entire season.

 

Are you honestly going to try and convince me that the first half and second half of that last sentence were completely unrelated points?

[JJFIVEOH]

He certainly was. His 4.25 gaa and his .882 sv% and 20 goals that got past him in the other 5 games sure did allow that series to go 7 games. Had he done better the sabres might have won in 6.

 

I know he had 2 shutouts and was stellar in those 2 games, but come on, he was not very good in the other 5 games at all. Oh yeah and who was the other goalie(s) he faced in that series that beat him?

 

Haha. Philly spent more $$ on the rest of the team so they had the talent to beat us. :w00t:

 

The idea of tanking for an unknown is ridiculous. But the idea of trading for an unknown isn't? To the extent that Enroth can handle the load as a #1, he is a complete unknown. And who says Miller won't be here?

 

Because that trend isn't going to change overnight. Miller isn't getting any younger and his contract is up in 2 years.

 

Miller was a complete unknown when he got the starting job. In fact, he was terrible his first two years before he got it.

 

 

Are you honestly going to try and convince me that the first half and second half of that last sentence were completely unrelated points?

 

Yes, they were unrelated. My point had nothing to do with wearing Miller out. I've mentioned the problem of relying too much on Miller well before I even talked about his injuries.

 

-Miller gets injured often

 

-Lindy and DR rely too much on their goaltending.

[Ross Rhea]

Haha. Philly spent more $$ on the rest of the team so they had the talent to beat us. :w00t:

 

True.

 

I think you win with offense in the NHL. Put the puck in the net and take you chances with a $2 million goalie. It's a recipe that seems to be working lately, save Tim Thomas last year.

[JJFIVEOH]

The Sabres were an elite team for half the season, the parts where they sucked don't count, and therefore no changes should be made.

 

You can't look at portions of a record, or games...you have to take the sum total. The sum total in that series says the Sabres would have lost sooner than game 7 if Miller was worse.

 

Here's some totals for ya:

 

Since the lockout, here are Miller's ranks in GAA and Save %....

 

GAA:

05-06:#11

06-07:#20

07-08:#24

08-09:#18

09-10:#2

10-11:#21

11-12:#23

Save %:

05-06:#9

06-07:#15

07-08:#29

08-09:#8

09-10:#2

10-11:#17

11-12:#19

 

Not exactly $6.25 mil "elite" numbers.

[Punch]

 

 

Here's some totals for ya:

 

Since the lockout, here are Miller's ranks in GAA and Save %....

 

GAA:

05-06:#11

06-07:#20

07-08:#24

08-09:#18

09-10:#2

10-11:#21

11-12:#23

Save %:

05-06:#9

06-07:#15

07-08:#29

08-09:#8

09-10:#2

10-11:#17

11-12:#19

 

Not exactly $6.25 mil "elite" numbers.

 

I'm not going to argue either side but I do have to ask: do you really not see any correlation between the statistics you posted and the style of play + quality of surrounding talent? The high tempo full court press 4 man attack the Sabres played following the lockout dictated that Miller was hung out to dry quite a bit and afforded opposing teams more offensive opportunities. His Vezina year had as much to do with Miller being sharp and healthy all year as it did a total team commitment to a defense first approach. The defense has been in shambles for much of the past two seasons.

 

I don't know--- Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak aren't the greatest goaltending tandem in the history of the game. Compare Rask's season 2 years ago to Thomas last year--- incredibly similar.

 

The goaltender is nothing without his defense and vice versa.

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm not going to argue either side but I do have to ask: do you really not see any correlation between the statistics you posted and the style of play + quality of surrounding talent? The high tempo full court press 4 man attack the Sabres played following the lockout dictated that Miller was hung out to dry quite a bit and afforded opposing teams more offensive opportunities. His Vezina year had as much to do with Miller being sharp and healthy all year as it did a total team commitment to a defense first approach. The defense has been in shambles for much of the past two seasons.

 

I don't know--- Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak aren't the greatest goaltending tandem in the history of the game. Compare Rask's season 2 years ago to Thomas last year--- incredibly similar.

 

The goaltender is nothing without his defense and vice versa.

 

Which has been my point all along! Get the draft picks and the cap space and improve the team around the goaltenders, and goaltending won't be an issue.

[Punch]

 

 

Which has been my point all along! Get the draft picks and the cap space and improve the team around the goaltenders, and goaltending won't be an issue.

 

I figured you'd say something like that :P

 

But like I said, the goaltender is nothing without his defense, and vice versa. It goes both ways.

The Sabres aren't going to start over in goal if they feel they're close to contending. I like Enroth, but it's asking a lot to put all of their eggs in his unproven catching glove.

[Eleven]

Exactly. This topic is centered around how many games he has started.

22. Go get your De Bella's.

[JJFIVEOH]

I figured you'd say something like that :P

 

But like I said, the goaltender is nothing without his defense, and vice versa. It goes both ways.

The Sabres aren't going to start over in goal if they feel they're close to contending. I like Enroth, but it's asking a lot to put all of their eggs in his unproven catching glove.

 

Doesn't matter either way because we all know LR and DR will never go for any of this.

[RazielSabre]

Exactly. And therein lies a big problem with the Sabres. They rely too much on Miller and he seems to have difficulty staying healthy through an entire season.

Agree with the 1st half of that statement. We have to rely on our team, the culture has to change.

[Ross Rhea]

Agree with the 1st half of that statement. We have to rely on our team, the culture has to change.

 

Although we may disagree on some aspects of the goaltenders, I could not agree more with you on the bolded part. Change is needed.

[JJFIVEOH]

Agree with the 1st half of that statement. We have to rely on our team, the culture has to change.

 

I agree 100%. Don't get me wrong, having a good goaltender goes a long way, not to mention a great goaltender. But with today's NHL it's a crapshoot. A great goaltender can be bad, an average goaltender can get hot. This team needs to get better and not have to depend on Miller. If the team in front of him does their part, and have the ability to do their part, then depending on Miller/Enroth is secondary. I think there needs to be some changes but I don't think this team needs a rebuild. I think they took some big steps with Ennis at center, the acquisition of Hodgson and the emergence of Foligno. They're not far away IMO.

[MattPie]

Haha. Philly spent more $$ on the rest of the team so they had the talent to beat us. :w00t:

 

And then were promptly swept by.... The Bruins and their elite goaltender in Thomas. There's more than one way to win.

[apuszczalowski]

So, whats easier to do, find a couple of average goaltenders and surround them with some of the top talent in the league, or build a decent team around one of the better goalies in the league?

 

Its funny cause even Philly tried to go out and improve their goaltending cause they realised that mediocre/decent goaltending can still only take you so far. Take a look at the caliber of players some of the other teams that have mediocre goaltending have in front of the goalie

 

Tampa with Roloson - Lecavalier, Stamkos, St. Louis etc.

Chicago with Crawford/Emery/Niemi - Toews, Kane, Hossa, etc.

Ottawa with Anderson/Bishop - Spezza & Alfredson

Capitals with Neuvirth/Holtby - Ovechkin, Green, Backstrom, Semin, etc.

Flyers with Bryz/Bobrovsy/Boucher - Briere, Hartnell, Jagr, Van Reimsdyk, Giroux, etc.

Sharks with Niemi - Thorton, Havlat, Marleau, etc

Detroit with Howard - Datsyuk, Zeterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom, etc

 

All of those teams have some of the best players in the league playing in front of middle of the pact goaltending. Right now, the Sabres don't have those caliber of players that compare to those teams. So what would be the quickest and easiest thing for the team to do? Dump the goalie and build the team up in front, or keep the goalie and tweak the roster in front? I bet you could ask any of those teams, and almost every single one of them would want to improve their goaltending if it was possible, and some have already tried (Ottawa, Flyers, Capitals)

 

And then were promptly swept by.... The Bruins and their elite goaltender in Thomas. There's more than one way to win.

No there isn't, theres only one way, and thats to do whatever the last team to win it did.

[Bmwolf21]

So, whats easier to do, find a couple of average goaltenders and surround them with some of the top talent in the league, or build a decent team around one of the better goalies in the league?

 

Its funny cause even Philly tried to go out and improve their goaltending cause they realised that mediocre/decent goaltending can still only take you so far. Take a look at the caliber of players some of the other teams that have mediocre goaltending have in front of the goalie

 

Tampa with Roloson - Lecavalier, Stamkos, St. Louis etc.

Chicago with Crawford/Emery/Niemi - Toews, Kane, Hossa, etc.

Ottawa with Anderson/Bishop - Spezza & Alfredson

Capitals with Neuvirth/Holtby - Ovechkin, Green, Backstrom, Semin, etc.

Flyers with Bryz/Bobrovsy/Boucher - Briere, Hartnell, Jagr, Van Reimsdyk, Giroux, etc.

Sharks with Niemi - Thorton, Havlat, Marleau, etc

Detroit with Howard - Datsyuk, Zeterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom, etc

 

All of those teams have some of the best players in the league playing in front of middle of the pact goaltending. Right now, the Sabres don't have those caliber of players that compare to those teams. So what would be the quickest and easiest thing for the team to do? Dump the goalie and build the team up in front, or keep the goalie and tweak the roster in front? I bet you could ask any of those teams, and almost every single one of them would want to improve their goaltending if it was possible, and some have already tried (Ottawa, Flyers, Capitals)

 

No there isn't, theres only one way, and thats to do whatever the last team to win it did.

 

I don't disagree with the rest, but I wouldn't include Howard on the mediocre/decent list.

[Fire Lindy Ruff NOW]

miller stinks. 10th in the league in goals allowed this year. average GAA and Save percentage every single year. i dont understand why people like him that much. hes great on low shots, but absolutely piss poor on high shots. he puts himself out of position alot, and lets in some really timely goals. id trade him for just about anything.

[MattPie]

miller stinks. 10th in the league in goals allowed this year. average GAA and Save percentage every single year. i dont understand why people like him that much. hes great on low shots, but absolutely piss poor on high shots. he puts himself out of position alot, and lets in some really timely goals. id trade him for just about anything.

 

Seriously, go watch the Flyers/Pens series (even just the highlights) and come back. Every game in that series there's 3-4 softies. There have been at least 3-4 goals where Bryz has made the stop, lost track of the puck in his equipment only to have it trickle out into the net or onto a Pens stick. Fleury has put one directly into his own net with his glove and has given up some really awful 5-hole goals. Either team would kill to have someone half as good as Miller.

[Bmwolf21]

Seriously, go watch the Flyers/Pens series (even just the highlights) and come back. Every game in that series there's 3-4 softies. There have been at least 3-4 goals where Bryz has made the stop, lost track of the puck in his equipment only to have it trickle out into the net or onto a Pens stick. Fleury has put one directly into his own net with his glove and has given up some really awful 5-hole goals. Either team would kill to have someone half as good as Miller.

 

Don't forget the OT GWG Crawford gave up in Game 3. A truly brutal goal.

[Eric William Richardson]

I am personally a fan of Enroth. When Miller went down due to injuries last season he stepped in and was almost unbeatable. Enroth was a huge reason that we got to the playoffs. I think as well as most that Lindy needs to get Enroth involved much more than he currently is. I know that it may be difficult to bench a hot goaltender but outside of the last month or so Miller was far from a hot goaltender. I know he was injured for a time but still. I dont know how you can expect enroth to come in a be in form when he only starts once a month. I hope that lindy gets his head out of his ass and utalizes the talent he has. This reminds me of what the Indianapolis Colts are going through. Peyton Manning was the whole show, the backup never had time to realy get going. They lose him and now the orginzation is in shambles. know I am not saying that Enroth is the future goaltender after Miller but if you dont give the second goaltender a fair amount of playing time how can you expect to get a lot in return. If its a trust issue than get enroth out and find another quality backup for miller. I just personally think that would be a big mistake.

[dEnnis the Menace]

I am personally a fan of Enroth. When Miller went down due to injuries last season he stepped in and was almost unbeatable. Enroth was a huge reason that we got to the playoffs. I think as well as most that Lindy needs to get Enroth involved much more than he currently is. I know that it may be difficult to bench a hot goaltender but outside of the last month or so Miller was far from a hot goaltender. I know he was injured for a time but still. I dont know how you can expect enroth to come in a be in form when he only starts once a month. I hope that lindy gets his head out of his ass and utalizes the talent he has. This reminds me of what the Indianapolis Colts are going through. Peyton Manning was the whole show, the backup never had time to realy get going. They lose him and now the orginzation is in shambles. know I am not saying that Enroth is the future goaltender after Miller but if you dont give the second goaltender a fair amount of playing time how can you expect to get a lot in return. If its a trust issue than get enroth out and find another quality backup for miller. I just personally think that would be a big mistake.

 

Just take a look at Miller's stats from the game or two before the All-Star break up to the end of the season. His stats were borderline ridiculously good. If I'm Ruff, I don't sit him either. I like Enroth, and I love rooting for him, and he has potential, but when the season is on the line, and you NEED a win, you're going to who you trust can come thru, and Miller stole a bunch of games for us on that stretch where we were heavily outshot (See the west coast trip).

 

Enroth was put into some games where he stopped well over 30 shots, but he didn't steal many of those games, he kept them close, and that was it. Miller down right stole a lot of games in the second half of the season. Enroth got 22 starts, and I believe that's about right for a backup, and it's better than a lot of the previous goalies in Buffalo. Hell, it's better than trying to get starts in behind a goalie like Broduer, and it's 1 less than Rask got this season.

[Taro T]

I am personally a fan of Enroth. When Miller went down due to injuries last season he stepped in and was almost unbeatable. Enroth was a huge reason that we got to the playoffs. I think as well as most that Lindy needs to get Enroth involved much more than he currently is. I know that it may be difficult to bench a hot goaltender but outside of the last month or so Miller was far from a hot goaltender. I know he was injured for a time but still. I dont know how you can expect enroth to come in a be in form when he only starts once a month. I hope that lindy gets his head out of his ass and utalizes the talent he has. This reminds me of what the Indianapolis Colts are going through. Peyton Manning was the whole show, the backup never had time to realy get going. They lose him and now the orginzation is in shambles. know I am not saying that Enroth is the future goaltender after Miller but if you dont give the second goaltender a fair amount of playing time how can you expect to get a lot in return. If its a trust issue than get enroth out and find another quality backup for miller. I just personally think that would be a big mistake.

I like Enroth and agree (like most others here) that Enroth should regularly get in more games than he does. (Personally, I'd like to see him start ~1 every 3 -> 25 starts.)

 

But, through no fault of his own, I will be SHOCKED if he is every anything more than a very solid backup. The guy is simply too short. He has great reflexes and if he was playing 20 years ago he'd be able to be a regular starter and possibly a star. The trap and letting obstruction go weren't the only things that brought scoring down in the mid-'90's. Another significant factor was the advent of the (hybrid) butterfly. Due to his size, Enroth has to react much more than a typical NHL goalie. Even though his reflexes are excellent, he can't be expected to be as successful as a guy that's big enough for the puck to hit him. There's a reason normal-sized NHLers aren't primarily reaction goalies.

 

A significant portion of his success initially was likely due to there being no 'book' on him. Hope for his sake I'm wrong about his size keeping him from excelling, but I don't expect to be.

[JJFIVEOH]

So, whats easier to do, find a couple of average goaltenders and surround them with some of the top talent in the league, or build a decent team around one of the better goalies in the league?

 

Its funny cause even Philly tried to go out and improve their goaltending cause they realised that mediocre/decent goaltending can still only take you so far. Take a look at the caliber of players some of the other teams that have mediocre goaltending have in front of the goalie

 

Tampa with Roloson - Lecavalier, Stamkos, St. Louis etc.

Chicago with Crawford/Emery/Niemi - Toews, Kane, Hossa, etc.

Ottawa with Anderson/Bishop - Spezza & Alfredson

Capitals with Neuvirth/Holtby - Ovechkin, Green, Backstrom, Semin, etc.

Flyers with Bryz/Bobrovsy/Boucher - Briere, Hartnell, Jagr, Van Reimsdyk, Giroux, etc.

Sharks with Niemi - Thorton, Havlat, Marleau, etc

Detroit with Howard - Datsyuk, Zeterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom, etc

 

All of those teams have some of the best players in the league playing in front of middle of the pact goaltending. Right now, the Sabres don't have those caliber of players that compare to those teams. So what would be the quickest and easiest thing for the team to do? Dump the goalie and build the team up in front, or keep the goalie and tweak the roster in front? I bet you could ask any of those teams, and almost every single one of them would want to improve their goaltending if it was possible, and some have already tried (Ottawa, Flyers, Capitals)

 

I agree with this to a point. The only problem I see with it is if that goalie gets hurt or goes into a slump, you're stuck hoping the rest of the "tweaked" team can find a way to pull it off. If you build the team in front of him and somebody goes into a slump, there's others to pick up the slack. Sure Enroth is just as capable and I have noted I am a fan. But how long does he accept playing 20-25 games and never getting consecutive nights in net unless Miller is inured? We all know that goalies go into hot and cold streaks. I truly can't stand Lindy's "schedule" when it comes to goaltenders. I think it should be whoever is playing the best. If you had a great game, you're back in net the next game. And the next game, and the next game....... until you start to cool off. It's worked out great for the Panthers.

No there isn't, theres only one way, and thats to do whatever the last team to win it did.

 

Pummel everybody on the opposing team until they're too scared to do anything?

[apuszczalowski]

I don't disagree with the rest, but I wouldn't include Howard on the mediocre/decent list.

He's good, but he isn't a guy thats going to be depended on much to steal a game for you. If the offence/defence in Detroit struggles, chances are they will lose the game. His play and stats are more of a reflection of the team in front of him rather then the teams standings being a reflection of his play

 

I agree with this to a point. The only problem I see with it is if that goalie gets hurt or goes into a slump, you're stuck hoping the rest of the "tweaked" team can find a way to pull it off. If you build the team in front of him and somebody goes into a slump, there's others to pick up the slack. Sure Enroth is just as capable and I have noted I am a fan. But how long does he accept playing 20-25 games and never getting consecutive nights in net unless Miller is inured? We all know that goalies go into hot and cold streaks. I truly can't stand Lindy's "schedule" when it comes to goaltenders. I think it should be whoever is playing the best. If you had a great game, you're back in net the next game. And the next game, and the next game....... until you start to cool off. It's worked out great for the Panthers.

 

 

Pummel everybody on the opposing team until they're too scared to do anything?

until he feels, along with some other team in the league, that he is a starting goaltender, rather then just a good backup. How many other teams with a #1 goalie play their backups more then 1/3 of the season? His job is to be the backup goaltender, and part of the job is to be ready to play when needed and once every few games. Biron, Noronen, both guys who people thought at some point had the ability to be the next starter here or somewhere else. Where are they now? Backup playing 20-25 games and out of the NHL.

[LastPommerFan]

miller stinks. 10th in the league in goals allowed this year. average GAA and Save percentage every single year. i dont understand why people like him that much. hes great on low shots, but absolutely piss poor on high shots. he puts himself out of position alot, and lets in some really timely goals. id trade him for just about anything.

 

You could argue most of the points you've made, but not the bolded part. Miller might be the best positional goaltender in the entire NHL.

 

His Average SV% also puts him in the top 10...Ever.