Enroth Disappointed

[X. Benedict]

Why do some people get confused with great GOALTENDING and great GOALTENDER. More often than not when we see great GOALTENDING in the playoffs it rarely involves great GOALTENDERS. Many of them turn out to be flashes in the pan. Miller is not a great GOALTENDER. His stats have been average at best since he started playing with the exception of one year.

 

Consistent Goaltending is one of the most elusive things in the sport. If you have a goalie that gives you a chance to win every game you keep him around. If you have a goalie that can steal games - you pay him.

 

Huge difference between starting 20 games and playing 60. With occasional starts you can mask a lot of flaws.

Over 60 games - if you have flaws they become much more apparent.

 

I like Enroth --- but no way do I want him starting more than a third of Sabres games unless it is an emergency.

26-27 games is about right for a backup.

[JJFIVEOH]

Consistent Goaltending is one of the most elusive things in the sport. If you have a goalie that gives you a chance to win every game you keep him around. If you have a goalie that can steal games - you pay him.

 

Huge difference between starting 20 games and playing 60. With occasional starts you can mask a lot of flaws.

Over 60 games - if you have flaws they become much more apparent.

 

I like Enroth --- but no way do I want him starting more than a third of Sabres games unless it is an emergency.

26-27 games is about right for a backup.

 

How can you say that when he hasn't played in enough consecutive games to show he can do it? How is a goaltender supposed to show he is capable without getting more starts? To finish with a .917 save % when he was in net for many games during the teams lowest point is pretty impressive to me. Miller was 6-11-1 in his first 2 years........ how did he get thrown into the starting role? He certainly didn't prove himself.

 

Harsh imho but I agree with the general message.

 

 

 

From trade deadline, as if the deadline were passed and we need to win 90% of the rest of the season.

 

I don't see that, I remember Ruff leaving Miller to get torched by the Wings to prove a point to a rookie with 2 games experience. I don't see him treating Enroth that badly in comparison. Miller's earnt his space but the problem isn't with the goaltending, its a waste of time arguement imho.

 

I would have rode Miller too. I've always been big on riding the hot goaltender. I think a team should have 2 good goaltenders instead of one true starter that you rely on too much. With that said, Enroth would have played more games when Miller couldn't get his act together.

[87168]

So why did you bold that part?

 

I don't know. I'm hungry and can't stop thinking about De Bella's. :(

 

Cut me some slack!!! :cry:

[RazielSabre]

How can you say that when he hasn't played in enough consecutive games to show he can do it? How is a goaltender supposed to show he is capable without getting more starts? To finish with a .917 save % when he was in net for many games during the teams lowest point is pretty impressive to me. Miller was 6-11-1 in his first 2 years........ how did he get thrown into the starting role? He certainly didn't prove himself.

 

 

 

I would have rode Miller too. I've always been big on riding the hot goaltender. I think a team should have 2 good goaltenders instead of one true starter that you rely on too much. With that said, Enroth would have played more games when Miller couldn't get his act together.

Yes but he didnt, and for whatever reason Ruff decided Enroth wasnt the answer. He did try both, infact he tried everything but the team woke up to late. I don't think thats the goaltenders fault, the team should have responded better after the Lucic incident. I genuinely believe in hindsight our season was over then.

 

I don't know. I'm hungry and can't stop thinking about De Bella's. :(

 

Cut me some slack!!! :cry:

LMAO, fair play. I'd 11:25pm here so I'm thinking about sleep rather than food. :P

[JJFIVEOH]

Yes but he didnt, and for whatever reason Ruff decided Enroth wasnt the answer. He did try both, infact he tried everything but the team woke up to late. I don't think thats the goaltenders fault, the team should have responded better after the Lucic incident. I genuinely believe in hindsight our season was over then.

 

 

LMAO, fair play. I'd 11:25pm here so I'm thinking about sleep rather than food. :P

 

Now thanks to you, I've got my mouth watering thinking about an English pub in Boynton Beach that serves up a mean fish n chips. :beer:

[X. Benedict]

How can you say that when he hasn't played in enough consecutive games to show he can do it? How is a goaltender supposed to show he is capable without getting more starts? To finish with a .917 save % when he was in net for many games during the teams lowest point is pretty impressive to me. Miller was 6-11-1 in his first 2 years........ how did he get thrown into the starting role? He certainly didn't prove himself.

 

 

Hmmm? I guess I'm not as impressed with save percentage as what I see a goaltender do down low. I also tend to sit

behind the goaltender when I go to games. Enroth tends to glove down a lot of shots outside the cage.

 

I would say that Enroth has some nice reflexes, not as good down low as Miller, and is a perfectly capable backup.

 

Enroth has been around for some time. He already has about 200 pro starts. I don't think what he is is a mystery at all.

He's a good backup. But I'd be scared to death to ride him for 65 games.

[87168]

Hmmm? I guess I'm not as impressed with save percentage as what I see a goaltender do down low. I also tend to sit

behind the goaltender when I go to games. Enroth tends to glove down a lot of shots outside the cage.

 

I would say that Enroth has some nice reflexes, not as good down low as Miller, and is a perfectly capable backup.

 

Enroth has been around for some time. He already has about 200 pro starts. I don't think what he is is a mystery at all.

He's a good backup. But I'd be scared to death to ride him for 65 games.

 

I respectfully beg to differ. Time will tell. If he sticks around with this franchise I doubt he'll live up to his full potential(at least not with the coaching staff we have currently).

[Weave]

Why do some people get confused with great GOALTENDING and great GOALTENDER. More often than not when we see great GOALTENDING in the playoffs it rarely involves great GOALTENDERS. Many of them turn out to be flashes in the pan. Miller is not a great GOALTENDER. His stats have been average at best since he started playing with the exception of one year.

 

 

The entirety of this thread is a study of confusion between great goaltending vs. great goaltenders.

[SwampD]

The entirety of this thread is a study of confusion between great goaltending vs. great goaltenders.

I thought it was about Ruff's mismanagement of either.

[Weave]

I thought it was about Ruff's mismanagement of either.

 

OK 50/50. :P

[Bmwolf21]

Yes, Miller played great last year in the 1st round. It wouldn't have gone to game 7 without him. But here's one thing....... he didn't "steal" game 7 and we didn't win

 

In all fairness, if you need your goaltender to steal three of the necessary four wins to advance, then you probably don't deserve a spot in the playoffs.

Consistent Goaltending is one of the most elusive things in the sport. If you have a goalie that gives you a chance to win every game you keep him around. If you have a goalie that can steal games - you pay him.

 

Huge difference between starting 20 games and playing 60. With occasional starts you can mask a lot of flaws.

Over 60 games - if you have flaws they become much more apparent.

 

I like Enroth --- but no way do I want him starting more than a third of Sabres games unless it is an emergency.

26-27 games is about right for a backup.

 

Great post.

[TrueBlueGED]

Why do some people get confused with great GOALTENDING and great GOALTENDER. More often than not when we see great GOALTENDING in the playoffs it rarely involves great GOALTENDERS. Many of them turn out to be flashes in the pan. Miller is not a great GOALTENDER. His stats have been average at best since he started playing with the exception of one year.

 

Do you have anything to even remotely back this up? You're making it sound like goalie is the least valuable position on the team. Cup winning goaltenders since 1991 (with cap hits for post-lockout winners): Thomas(5), Niemi(1.5 then, 3.8 now), Fleury(5), Osgood(1.5), Giguere(6), Ward(2.7 then, 6.3 now), Khabibulin, Brodeur, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Osgood, Vernon, Roy, Brodeur, Richter, Roy, Barrasso, Barrasso.

 

If you can get me Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Sharp and Seabrook or Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Yzerman, Federov (yes, I know I'm combining a few different Wings' teams here) caliber of talent by offloading Miller, then fine, I'll roll with a guy like Niemi or Osgood, although I'm not convinced Enroth is in that category. Otherwise, I'll take a slightly overpaid Miller.

[JJFIVEOH]

Do you have anything to even remotely back this up? You're making it sound like goalie is the least valuable position on the team. Cup winning goaltenders since 1991 (with cap hits for post-lockout winners): Thomas(5), Niemi(1.5 then, 3.8 now), Fleury(5), Osgood(1.5), Giguere(6), Ward(2.7 then, 6.3 now), Khabibulin, Brodeur, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Osgood, Vernon, Roy, Brodeur, Richter, Roy, Barrasso, Barrasso.

 

If you can get me Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Sharp and Seabrook or Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Yzerman, Federov (yes, I know I'm combining a few different Wings' teams here) caliber of talent by offloading Miller, then fine, I'll roll with a guy like Niemi or Osgood, although I'm not convinced Enroth is in that category. Otherwise, I'll take a slightly overpaid Miller.

 

As we've discussed, goaltenders aren't as key as they once were. What used to be wide open hockey, goals are now scored more often on rebounds, scrums, bounces, deflections....... I never said goaltenders are the least valuable position. If your team wanted to spend the cash on a superstar goaltender that was up to them. Since the lockout that's not so easy because if you invest $6 mil on your goaltender then you are taking away from improvements to the rest of the team. Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Richter, Roy, Barrasso are pretty much moot points because this is an entirely different game now. We're talking post-lockout.

 

So taking your first few goaltenders (since those are the ones involved post-lockout) none of those with the exception of Thomas are considered elite goaltenders. None of the goaltenders have repeated what they did to help get their team another Cup. Let's look at the top 5 save %'s over the last couple of postseasons shall we? Leighton, Leclair, Anderson, Halak, Miller, Biron, Hiller, Price, Crawford, Roloson, Howard.............. Remember when everybody thought Niemi was going to be the next superstar? How about Roloson last year? Remember him beating the Penguins? How about a clean sweep of the Caps? Rollie got his team to the semis because of great goaltending. Is he a great goaltender worthy of $6 mil a year because of that? Hardly. In fact it amazes me how he keeps managing to find a job period. Yet he won more playoff rounds than Miller has in the last 5 years.

 

And getting at least a 1st round pick each for Miller and Roy, who knows what could be done with lots of cap room and four 1st rounders. Those guys might not be trade bait, but everything is for sale. You dangle those 1st rounders in front of another GM's face, somebody will think about it.

[Weave]

Do you have anything to even remotely back this up? You're making it sound like goalie is the least valuable position on the team. Cup winning goaltenders since 1991 (with cap hits for post-lockout winners): Thomas(5), Niemi(1.5 then, 3.8 now), Fleury(5), Osgood(1.5), Giguere(6), Ward(2.7 then, 6.3 now), Khabibulin, Brodeur, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Osgood, Vernon, Roy, Brodeur, Richter, Roy, Barrasso, Barrasso.

 

If you can get me Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Sharp and Seabrook or Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Yzerman, Federov (yes, I know I'm combining a few different Wings' teams here) caliber of talent by offloading Miller, then fine, I'll roll with a guy like Niemi or Osgood, although I'm not convinced Enroth is in that category. Otherwise, I'll take a slightly overpaid Miller.

 

All those teams were playing defensively sound hockey during the playoffs, limiting the need for the goalie to be great. Sure, the goalie was there and playing well enough to make the save on the inevitable great chances that come up, but really all of those teams you mention were SC winners because they played great hockey that playoffs meaning the goalies didn;t have to be elite. They just had to be very good. Great goaltending vs great goaltenders.

 

Interstingly, IMO the back end of your list is much more heavily weighted in elite 'tenders than the more recent end of that list.

[JJFIVEOH]

In all fairness, if you need your goaltender to steal three of the necessary four wins to advance, then you probably don't deserve a spot in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. And therein lies a big problem with the Sabres. They rely too much on Miller and he seems to have difficulty staying healthy through an entire season.

[Ross Rhea]

So you put these two quotes together.............. Enroth had his chance and he lost them. But Fleury gets a pass because his team is playing terrible. Enroth's stats were incredible until Lindy rode him while the Sabres were at their lowest point in recent history. Seriously? A rookie galtender choked because he couldn't carry the team when they played the worst we've seen them play in years, but Fleury, a $6mil "elite" goaltender has an excuse? Come on man.........

 

Amazing isn't it.

 

I agree 100% with you JJ.

[TrueBlueGED]

As we've discussed, goaltenders aren't as key as they once were. What used to be wide open hockey, goals are now scored more often on rebounds, scrums, bounces, deflections....... I never said goaltenders are the least valuable position. If your team wanted to spend the cash on a superstar goaltender that was up to them. Since the lockout that's not so easy because if you invest $6 mil on your goaltender then you are taking away from improvements to the rest of the team. Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Richter, Roy, Barrasso are pretty much moot points because this is an entirely different game now. We're talking post-lockout.

 

So taking your first few goaltenders (since those are the ones involved post-lockout) none of those with the exception of Thomas are considered elite goaltenders. None of the goaltenders have repeated what they did to help get their team another Cup. Let's look at the top 5 save %'s over the last couple of postseasons shall we? Leighton, Leclair, Anderson, Halak, Miller, Biron, Hiller, Price, Crawford, Roloson, Howard.............. Remember when everybody thought Niemi was going to be the next superstar? How about Roloson last year? Remember him beating the Penguins? How about a clean sweep of the Caps? Rollie got his team to the semis because of great goaltending. Is he a great goaltender worthy of $6 mil a year because of that? Hardly. In fact it amazes me how he keeps managing to find a job period. Yet he won more playoff rounds than Miller has in the last 5 years.

 

And getting at least a 1st round pick each for Miller and Roy, who knows what could be done with lots of cap room and four 1st rounders. Those guys might not be trade bait, but everything is for sale. You dangle those 1st rounders in front of another GM's face, somebody will think about it.

 

To your first points, it's all about playing the percentages. A LOT has to go right to win a Stanley Cup, and by having a higher caliber goaltender, it reduces the variation in one of the many variables. The better the goaltender, the more likely he is to play well enough in the playoffs to win the Cup. Yes you can strike lightning with a less than elite goaltender...but what happens after he gets a Cup and plays well in the playoffs? At that point he'll demand a contract, and you'll have to pay him near-Miller numbers or pray that you can cycle into another diamond in the rough. Let's say we offload Miller, what happens if Enroth sets the world on fire and demands a hefty contract? Do we then jettison Enroth, and hope Knapp or Leggio is the next guy for us? There comes a time where you either have to pay a goaltender for stability at the position, or keep cycling through every couple years....and you're going to get quite a few turds during that cycle which kills your chance to compete.

 

As to the bolded portion, trading Miller is significantly easier in theory than in practice. He has a NTC, can list up to 8 teams he'd refuse to go to, and surely he'd list the bottom-feeders without goaltenders who would yield a high pick in return. The contenders he'd be willing to go to, and who also need a goaltender, and who also have the cap space for Miller's contract, is a....small...list. If all you get is a 1st round pick, it's likely to be mid-1st round. I find it ironic you would advocate trading Miller for such a great unknown, when you mocked the idea of tanking for an elite pick, which is far less of an unknown.

 

 

All those teams were playing defensively sound hockey during the playoffs, limiting the need for the goalie to be great. Sure, the goalie was there and playing well enough to make the save on the inevitable great chances that come up, but really all of those teams you mention were SC winners because they played great hockey that playoffs meaning the goalies didn;t have to be elite. They just had to be very good. Great goaltending vs great goaltenders.

 

Interstingly, IMO the back end of your list is much more heavily weighted in elite 'tenders than the more recent end of that list.

 

Goaltenders don't have to be elite to play great for a stretch, but again, to me, it's all about the percentages. I'll put my money on a guy like Lundqvist, Rinne, Quick, Miller, etc. to go on the type of run necessary to win the Cup every time before I lay it down on Niemi, Anderson, Bryzgalov, etc.

 

I also noticed what you did about the list, that the 90s and early 2000s were more heavily weighted towards elite goaltenders than post-lockout. The only thing i can say is, with the enforcement returning to how it was before the lockout, I'd expect the trend to reverse itself and having an elite or near-elite goaltender to once again be more important.

[Weave]

 

Goaltenders don't have to be elite to play great for a stretch, but again, to me, it's all about the percentages. I'll put my money on a guy like Lundqvist, Rinne, Quick, Miller, etc. to go on the type of run necessary to win the Cup every time before I lay it down on Niemi, Anderson, Bryzgalov, etc.

 

I also noticed what you did about the list, that the 90s and early 2000s were more heavily weighted towards elite goaltenders than post-lockout. The only thing i can say is, with the enforcement returning to how it was before the lockout, I'd expect the trend to reverse itself and having an elite or near-elite goaltender to once again be more important.

 

I agree with both of your points here.

[Bmwolf21]

Exactly. And therein lies a big problem with the Sabres. They rely too much on Miller and he seems to have difficulty staying healthy through an entire season.

 

I don't believe either of those to be true.

[JJFIVEOH]

Here's an interesting stat since Enroth didn't do his part when the team was down. From Nov.14-Jan.21 (all the games from after the Lucic hit to when they got healthy and beat NJ).

 

Enroth 474-431 .909

Miller 505-449 .889

 

Yet Miller got his job back when the team got healthy.

 

I don't believe either of those to be true.

 

You should. Miller has missed significant time over the last few seasons. Remember Enroth carried this team to the playoffs last year. ;)

[TrueBlueGED]

You should. Miller has missed significant time over the last few seasons. Remember Enroth carried this team to the playoffs last year. ;)

 

And it has nothing to do with being overworked, or Lindy's bad rotation. Being bulldozed by Lucic, run by Gomez, and having a shot knock you square in the head has nothing to do with the team relying too much on him. Miller has missed significant time, but you're wrong as to the reason why.

[Ross Rhea]

Regardless of the rest of it--and I do see some validity to your point about how the money is spent--Miller certainly has come up huge in playoff games. He's the reason the series went seven games last year.

 

As for the rest of it, when I see Enroth bother to show up for November games against Columbus, I'll be more confident in him.

 

He certainly was. His 4.25 gaa and his .882 sv% and 20 goals that got past him in the other 5 games sure did allow that series to go 7 games. Had he done better the sabres might have won in 6.

 

I know he had 2 shutouts and was stellar in those 2 games, but come on, he was not very good in the other 5 games at all. Oh yeah and who was the other goalie(s) he faced in that series that beat him?

[Bmwolf21]

Here's an interesting stat since Enroth didn't do his part when the team was down. From Nov.14-Jan.21 (all the games from after the Lucic hit to when they got healthy and beat NJ).

 

Enroth 474-431 .909

Miller 505-449 .889

 

Yet Miller got his job back when the team got healthy.

 

 

 

You should. Miller has missed significant time over the last few seasons. Remember Enroth carried this team to the playoffs last year. ;)

 

I'm not writing a goalie who has played 76, 59, 69, 66 and 61 games over the last five years off as injury prone, especially when the bulk of the games missed were when he was run twice.

 

And it has nothing to do with being overworked, or Lindy's bad rotation. Being bulldozed by Lucic, run by Gomez, and having a shot knock you square in the head has nothing to do with the team relying too much on him. Miller has missed significant time, but you're wrong as to the reason why.

 

Beat me to it.

[JJFIVEOH]

To your first points, it's all about playing the percentages. A LOT has to go right to win a Stanley Cup, and by having a higher caliber goaltender, it reduces the variation in one of the many variables. The better the goaltender, the more likely he is to play well enough in the playoffs to win the Cup. Yes you can strike lightning with a less than elite goaltender...but what happens after he gets a Cup and plays well in the playoffs? At that point he'll demand a contract, and you'll have to pay him near-Miller numbers or pray that you can cycle into another diamond in the rough. Let's say we offload Miller, what happens if Enroth sets the world on fire and demands a hefty contract? Do we then jettison Enroth, and hope Knapp or Leggio is the next guy for us? There comes a time where you either have to pay a goaltender for stability at the position, or keep cycling through every couple years....and you're going to get quite a few turds during that cycle which kills your chance to compete.

 

As to the bolded portion, trading Miller is significantly easier in theory than in practice. He has a NTC, can list up to 8 teams he'd refuse to go to, and surely he'd list the bottom-feeders without goaltenders who would yield a high pick in return. The contenders he'd be willing to go to, and who also need a goaltender, and who also have the cap space for Miller's contract, is a....small...list. If all you get is a 1st round pick, it's likely to be mid-1st round. I find it ironic you would advocate trading Miller for such a great unknown, when you mocked the idea of tanking for an elite pick, which is far less of an unknown.

 

I agree with you in that trading Miller might be difficult. But it was merely a proposal on my part because nobody knows what teams will do during the offseason, nobody knows what Miller really wants and nobody really knows who will be looking for somebody like Miller.

 

I mocked the idea of tanking because it was asinine. Purposely losing for the sake of an unknown is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the fact the draft pick would most likely be used on a forward. Enroth is not an unknown. And obviously it would require bringing in a veteran backup or somebody to split the duties.

 

 

 

Goaltenders don't have to be elite to play great for a stretch, but again, to me, it's all about the percentages. I'll put my money on a guy like Lundqvist, Rinne, Quick, Miller, etc. to go on the type of run necessary to win the Cup every time before I lay it down on Niemi, Anderson, Bryzgalov, etc.

 

I also noticed what you did about the list, that the 90s and early 2000s were more heavily weighted towards elite goaltenders than post-lockout. The only thing i can say is, with the enforcement returning to how it was before the lockout, I'd expect the trend to reverse itself and having an elite or near-elite goaltender to once again be more important.

 

If that trend does reverse it won't really matter because Miller won't be here. Then what?

[TrueBlueGED]

He certainly was. His 4.25 gaa and his .882 sv% and 20 goals that got past him in the other 5 games sure did allow that series to go 7 games. Had he done better the sabres might have won in 6.

 

I know he had 2 shutouts and was stellar in those 2 games, but come on, he was not very good in the other 5 games at all. Oh yeah and who was the other goalie(s) he faced in that series that beat him?

 

The Sabres were an elite team for half the season, the parts where they sucked don't count, and therefore no changes should be made.

 

You can't look at portions of a record, or games...you have to take the sum total. The sum total in that series says the Sabres would have lost sooner than game 7 if Miller was worse.