Enroth Disappointed

[TrueBlueGED]

All the scoring in the world won't help you if your goaltending blows. Is Miller overpaid by about a million dollars? Yea, sure. But I'll pay that any day for stability and to avoid going through the goaltending carousel that other teams experience. Does anybody really want to go into the postseason with a tandem equivalent to Craig Anderson and Ben Bishop? Having a good goaltender doesn't guarantee success, but it's a necessary condition for a Cup winner. What was the last team to win the Cup with sub-par goaltending?

 

Put another way, almost no matter what the Sabres do, teams like the Flyers and Penguins are going to have an advantage at the forward position. The Sabres have an advantage over teams like that in net. Do we really want to get rid of our advantage just to try and catch up to their forwards, almost certainly still falling short of equaling them? I don't think that's a good approach--I think the team should utilize its competitive advantage, not jettison it in the false hope of matching another team's advantage.

[Robviously]

All the scoring in the world won't help you if your goaltending blows.

I think three of the last four playoff series losses for the Sabres were to teams that rotated goalies mid-series (2006, 2010, 2011). A goaltending advantage isn't what it used to be.

 

Is Miller overpaid by about a million dollars? Yea, sure. But I'll pay that any day for stability and to avoid going through the goaltending carousel that other teams experience. Does anybody really want to go into the postseason with a tandem equivalent to Craig Anderson and Ben Bishop? Having a good goaltender doesn't guarantee success, but it's a necessary condition for a Cup winner. What was the last team to win the Cup with sub-par goaltending?

A "good" goaltender is necessary but a superstar goalie certainly isn't. Most teams can find someone at least "good" though. A lot of teams can find two guys who are, at the very least, "good." I agree that you can't win with someone sub-par.

 

There's no point in getting rid of Miller just to save money though. Spending his $6M on free agents isn't going to make us better. And I doubt we'd get any great return in a trade.

[TrueBlueGED]

I think three of the last four playoff series losses for the Sabres were to teams that rotated goalies mid-series (2006, 2010, 2011). A goaltending advantage isn't what it used to be.

 

 

A "good" goaltender is necessary but a superstar goalie certainly isn't. Most teams can find someone at least "good" though. A lot of teams can find two guys who are, at the very least, "good." I agree that you can't win with someone sub-par.

 

There's no point in getting rid of Miller just to save money though. Spending his $6M on free agents isn't going to make us better. And I doubt we'd get any great return in a trade.

 

Boston definitely didn't rotate goalies on us. And again, the point is that to win a Cup you need good goaltending, even if you can win the odd series here or there without it. At some point, if your goaltending isn't good, it will catch up to you. You don't need a superstar goalie to win it all, but you need a superstar somewhere on your team to win it all. Teams that win with merely a good goaltender have superstars elsewhere....yes Chicago won with Niemi, but they also had a roster littered with Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa. Obviously Pittsburgh is another example. The Bruins don't have superstar forwards (although Patrice Bergeron is mighty sexy...in a totally heterosexual kind of way), but they damn sure had Chara and Thomas. But if they have a goaltender who simply performs like Niemi, no way they win it all.

[87168]

the point is that had he stolen those games Ruff would have more confidence putting him in.

 

Are you sure?

 

Back to the crystal ball we go...

 

You don't need one, everyone knows Lindy rotates his netminders poorly. Everyone keeps talking about Miller's stellar performance towards their late season playoff push, but what about prior to that? He wasn't playing well (the team as a whole wasn't). Check his numbers. So the question remains. Why did Enroth get so few starts even when Miller was playing sub-par? I'm not saying Enroth would have played better than Miller during that period, but we'll never know because he was never given the chance.

[RazielSabre]

I think three of the last four playoff series losses for the Sabres were to teams that rotated goalies mid-series (2006, 2010, 2011). A goaltending advantage isn't what it used to be.

 

 

A "good" goaltender is necessary but a superstar goalie certainly isn't. Most teams can find someone at least "good" though. A lot of teams can find two guys who are, at the very least, "good." I agree that you can't win with someone sub-par.

 

There's no point in getting rid of Miller just to save money though. Spending his $6M on free agents isn't going to make us better. And I doubt we'd get any great return in a trade.

You please name me 2 cup winners since the lockout that had 'good' goaltending as opposed to very good or great.

[JJFIVEOH]

Stability? Carries the team? Halfway through the season Miller was so far down the list in GAA and save % that he wasn't even on the first page of 40. Was it because of injuries? Who knows, he has an excuse every single year. Had Miller "stolen" a couple of wins during his funk like an elite goaltender is supposed to do we wouldn't have had to ride him and we'd be talking about playoffs right now. There is no doubt that Cup winners have done so because of their goaltenders, but in many cases it wasn't because their goaltenders were superstars, it was because they simply got on a hot streak. As I pointed out, besides Thomas most of these goaltenders who stood on tbeir heads to win a Cup are not elite goaltenders. Not to mention the fact that many high $$, or elite goaltenders don't have much of a playoff resume. We're going to have to agree to disagree becuase this is my opinion. Year after year we have to deal with Miller's average stats and have to resort to a gung ho run to try and make the playoffs. If we had a bonafide #1 center and a Nash on this team to go along with Stafford, Vanek, Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno and Pominville...... not to mention our current D with the addition of McNabb I can guaranty who is in net wouldn't even be an issue. And they won't be able to do that without an extra 1st round pick and $6+ mil freed up.

[X. Benedict]

I think three of the last four playoff series losses for the Sabres were to teams that rotated goalies mid-series (2006, 2010, 2011). A goaltending advantage isn't what it used to be.

 

2006 was pretty much all Cam Ward starting....though he was pulled in a couple of games against Buffalo he was still Conn Smyth winner

 

2010 was all Rask IIRC.

[RazielSabre]

Stability? Carries the team? Halfway through the season Miller was so far down the list in GAA and save % that he wasn't even on the first page of 40. Was it because of injuries? Who knows, he has an excuse every single year. Had Miller "stolen" a couple of wins during his funk like an elite goaltender is supposed to do we wouldn't have had to ride him and we'd be talking about playoffs right now. There is no doubt that Cup winners have done so because of their goaltenders, but in many cases it wasn't because their goaltenders were superstars, it was because they simply got on a hot streak. As I pointed out, besides Thomas most of these goaltenders who stood on tbeir heads to win a Cup are not elite goaltenders. Not to mention the fact that many high $$, or elite goaltenders don't have much of a playoff resume. We're going to have to agree to disagree becuase this is my opinion. Year after year we have to deal with Miller's average stats and have to resort to a gung ho run to try and make the playoffs. If we had a bonafide #1 center and a Nash on this team to go along with Stafford, Vanek, Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno and Pominville...... not to mention our current D with the addition of McNabb I can guaranty who is in net wouldn't even be an issue. And they won't be able to do that without an extra 1st round pick and $6+ mil freed up.

 

I love how Stafford is now one of the good guys. The fact is this team and the fans are, have been and will be for years obsessed about who is in net. Miller is a great starter, Enroth is the best backup we've had in years. And all of you would throw it away because the team collapsed after Miller got run.

 

I'll say it again. The team collapsed, mentally especially. I'm not sure what your point is but thats mine.

[TrueBlueGED]

Stability? Carries the team? Halfway through the season Miller was so far down the list in GAA and save % that he wasn't even on the first page of 40. Was it because of injuries? Who knows, he has an excuse every single year. Had Miller "stolen" a couple of wins during his funk like an elite goaltender is supposed to do we wouldn't have had to ride him and we'd be talking about playoffs right now. There is no doubt that Cup winners have done so because of their goaltenders, but in many cases it wasn't because their goaltenders were superstars, it was because they simply got on a hot streak. As I pointed out, besides Thomas most of these goaltenders who stood on tbeir heads to win a Cup are not elite goaltenders. Not to mention the fact that many high $$, or elite goaltenders don't have much of a playoff resume. We're going to have to agree to disagree becuase this is my opinion. Year after year we have to deal with Miller's average stats and have to resort to a gung ho run to try and make the playoffs. If we had a bonafide #1 center and a Nash on this team to go along with Stafford, Vanek, Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno and Pominville...... not to mention our current D with the addition of McNabb I can guaranty who is in net wouldn't even be an issue. And they won't be able to do that without an extra 1st round pick and $6+ mil freed up.

 

And we won't have a #1 center and a Nash even if we get an extra 1st and $6 million freed up. Given what Columbus was asking for Nash...we'd get Nash, and nothing more. And you can guarantee who is in net wouldn't be an issue? Really? Philly probably wins the Cup a few years ago if they had better than a turd sandwich in net. Pittsburgh wouldn't be on the verge of getting swept if Fleury was even average...and they have several of the best players in the world! LA has pretty much all of what you're talking about, and if Quick wasn't playing outstanding they wouldn't be winning jack.

 

I feel like Sabres fans don't appreciate Miller because we never went through the wilderness with rotating garbage in net. We go from Hasek (all-time great), to Biron (good), to Miller (very good-great)....if we spent years like the Leafs have, or Colorado post-Roy, or Philly, people wouldn't be so quick to say Miller should be replaced.

[JJFIVEOH]

 

You please name me 2 cup winners since the lockout that had 'good' goaltending as opposed to very good or great.

 

Goaltending, or goaltender? Because besides Thomas none of the Cup winners had elite goaltenders.

 

 

 

And we won't have a #1 center and a Nash even if we get an extra 1st and $6 million freed up. Given what Columbus was asking for Nash...we'd get Nash, and nothing more. And you can guarantee who is in net wouldn't be an issue? Really? Philly probably wins the Cup a few years ago if they had better than a turd sandwich in net. Pittsburgh wouldn't be on the verge of getting swept if Fleury was even average...and they have several of the best players in the world! LA has pretty much all of what you're talking about, and if Quick wasn't playing outstanding they wouldn't be winning jack.

 

I feel like Sabres fans don't appreciate Miller because we never went through the wilderness with rotating garbage in net. We go from Hasek (all-time great), to Biron (good), to Miller (very good-great)....if we spent years like the Leafs have, or Colorado post-Roy, or Philly, people wouldn't be so quick to say Miller should be replaced.

 

And you helped prove my point. Fleury is supposed to be a high paid "elite" goaltender and where has it gotten the Pens this year in the playoffs?

[TrueBlueGED]

Goaltending, or goaltender? Because besides Thomas none of the Cup winners had elite goaltenders.

 

 

 

And you helped prove my point. Fleury is supposed to be a high paid "elite" goaltender and where has it gotten the Pens this year in the playoffs?

 

I don't think so Tim. You said it wouldn't matter who was in goal if we had a #1 center and a Nash-type winger. Pittsburgh proves it DOES matter. And on what planet has Fleury ever been considered elite?

[Weave]

I don't think so Tim. You said it wouldn't matter who was in goal if we had a #1 center and a Nash-type winger. Pittsburgh proves it DOES matter. And on what planet has Fleury ever been considered elite?

 

He's been talked about on about the same level as Miller in the past. Not recently though.

[RazielSabre]

Are you sure?

 

 

 

You don't need one, everyone knows Lindy rotates his netminders poorly. Everyone keeps talking about Miller's stellar performance towards their late season playoff push, but what about prior to that? He wasn't playing well (the team as a whole wasn't). Check his numbers. So the question remains. Why did Enroth get so few starts even when Miller was playing sub-par? I'm not saying Enroth would have played better than Miller during that period, but we'll never know because he was never given the chance.

 

Enroth got a shot, he just didn't shake the trend but he did perform ok. Bad for him is that we needed better than ok. I am by no means defending Ruff as he is awful with goalies as most of you have pointed out. He also got a reasonable amount of starts, not great but not bad. What did you expect? Him to share time with Miller straight off the bat?

[87168]

Enroth got a shot, he just didn't shake the trend but he did perform ok. Bad for him is that we needed better than ok. I am by no means defending Ruff as he is awful with goalies as most of you have pointed out. He also got a reasonable amount of starts, not great but not bad. What did you expect? Him to share time with Miller straight off the bat?

 

He did? How many games did he play this entire season? That is not a shot. Reasonable amount of starts?! Haha ok.

[RazielSabre]

Goaltending, or goaltender? Because besides Thomas none of the Cup winners had elite goaltenders.

 

 

 

And you helped prove my point. Fleury is supposed to be a high paid "elite" goaltender and where has it gotten the Pens this year in the playoffs?

 

It helps that the pens team is playing badly, it's hardly Fleurys fault. Infact that displays my point perfectly. Quite a few Sabres fans still think it's up to a goaltender to win a game. It. Is. Not! It takes a whole team. Every cup winner had a high level of goaltending but they were a complete team.

[RazielSabre]

He did? How many games did he play this entire season? That is not a shot. Reasonable amount of starts?! Haha ok.

He played in 26 games officially, that isn't bad for a backup. Maybe 30-32 starts would have been better but 26 certainly isn't bad. 3 over the last stretch is bad, but that was in exceptional circumstances.

[JJFIVEOH]

Enroth got a shot, he just didn't shake the trend but he did perform ok. Bad for him is that we needed better than ok. I am by no means defending Ruff as he is awful with goalies as most of you have pointed out. He also got a reasonable amount of starts, not great but not bad. What did you expect? Him to share time with Miller straight off the bat?

It helps that the pens team is playing badly, it's hardly Fleurys fault. Infact that displays my point perfectly. Quite a few Sabres fans still think it's up to a goaltender to win a game. It. Is. Not! It takes a whole team. Every cup winner had a high level of goaltending but they were a complete team.

 

So you put these two quotes together.............. Enroth had his chance and he lost them. But Fleury gets a pass because his team is playing terrible. Enroth's stats were incredible until Lindy rode him while the Sabres were at their lowest point in recent history. Seriously? A rookie galtender choked because he couldn't carry the team when they played the worst we've seen them play in years, but Fleury, a $6mil "elite" goaltender has an excuse? Come on man.........

[RazielSabre]

I think we've got off point let me explain how i feel:

 

Did Enroth show potential? Yes he had a good season, even if he was shaky for a bit.

Should he have had more starts? Maybe, but 26 isn't so bad

Does he have a right to be disappointed? Yes, certainly over the final stretch, but he did well generally and it was a great rookie season.

 

I believe next season we should keep things the same, this season was a failure due to the whole team. When Lucic run Miller the team lost itself mentally and couldn't snap out, we needed a change then and it didn't come, that lies on managements shoulders.

[87168]

He played in 26 games officially, that isn't bad for a backup. Maybe 30-32 starts would have been better but 26 certainly isn't bad. 3 over the last stretch is bad, but that was in exceptional circumstances.

 

Exactly. This topic is centered around how many games he has started.

[JJFIVEOH]

Why do some people get confused with great GOALTENDING and great GOALTENDER. More often than not when we see great GOALTENDING in the playoffs it rarely involves great GOALTENDERS. Many of them turn out to be flashes in the pan. Miller is not a great GOALTENDER. His stats have been average at best since he started playing with the exception of one year.

[RazielSabre]

So you put these two quotes together.............. Enroth had his chance and he lost them. But Fleury gets a pass because his team is playing terrible. Enroth's stats were incredible until Lindy rode him while the Sabres were at their lowest point in recent history. Seriously? A rookie galtender choked because he couldn't carry the team when they played the worst we've seen them play in years, but Fleury, a $6mil "elite" goaltender has an excuse? Come on man.........

No, I AM NOT ###### SAYING ENROTH PLAYED BADLY. ###### me. He did ok, great for a rookie, BUT HE DID NOT WIN THE JOB OVER MILLER and he lost out as Ruff did the logical think and rode Miller, who's been known to go on absurd streaks.

 

Sorry for the rant but sometimes it's necessary to get the point across.

 

Why do some people get confused with great GOALTENDING and great GOALTENDER. More often than not when we see great GOALTENDING in the playoffs it rarely involves great GOALTENDERS. Many of them turn out to be flashes in the pan. Miller is not a great GOALTENDER. His stats have been average at best since he started playing with the exception of one year.

Really, what is your point? How has this got anything to do with Enroth being disappointed?

[JJFIVEOH]

Exactly. This topic is centered around how many games he has started.

 

I think my issue isn't with how many games Enroth plays or if Miller is still on the team next year. My issue has to deal with the fact that this front office thinks of Miller as the Golden Boy. They put all their eggs in his basket, they throw the backup under the bus, and the players won't have the stones to criticize Miller when he loses a game..... while Miller won't hesitiate to throw his teammates under the bus. If Miller was treated like an average goalie I would probably be less inclined to criticize him.

[RazielSabre]

Exactly. This topic is centered around how many games he has started.

So why did you bold that part? He still started a reasonable amount of games and did well. We not have a duo we can trust. Now lets get an offense we can trust. I'm happy with the D.

 

I think my issue isn't with how many games Enroth plays or if Miller is still on the team next year. My issue has to deal with the fact that this front office thinks of Miller as the Golden Boy. They put all their eggs in his basket, they throw the backup under the bus, and the players won't have the stones to criticize Miller when he loses a game..... while Miller won't hesitiate to throw his teammates under the bus. If Miller was treated like an average goalie I would probably be less inclined to criticize him.

Ok lets break this down. It's the trade deadline (passed), we lose a handful of games and we're out of the playoffs. We know we can do it but we need the right team.

 

What do you do? I want a full breakdown of your coaching plan.

[JJFIVEOH]

No, I AM NOT ###### SAYING ENROTH PLAYED BADLY. ###### me. He did ok, great for a rookie, BUT HE DID NOT WIN THE JOB OVER MILLER and he lost out as Ruff did the logical think and rode Miller, who's been known to go on absurd streaks.

 

Sorry for the rant but sometimes it's necessary to get the point across.

 

 

Really, what is your point? How has this got anything to do with Enroth being disappointed?

 

I understand your point. ;) I think you fail to see mine. Enroth didn't come up big because the team was in dire straits. Nobody could have won a game in net, and neither could Miller. Miller didn't come up big midseason either. NOBODY will ever win over the starting goaltender spot in BFLO as long as Miller and Ruff are here no matter how well he does. This goes back to my last post. He is their Golden Boy and nothing will change it.

 

So why did you bold that part? He still started a reasonable amount of games and did well. We not have a duo we can trust. Now lets get an offense we can trust. I'm happy with the D.

 

 

Ok lets break this down. It's the trade deadline (passed), we lose a handful of games and we're out of the playoffs. We know we can do it but we need the right team.

 

What do you do? I want a full breakdown of your coaching plan.

 

You want my plan as if we were right at the trade dealine, or currently?

[RazielSabre]

Regardless of the rest of it--and I do see some validity to your point about how the money is spent--Miller certainly has come up huge in playoff games. He's the reason the series went seven games last year.

 

As for the rest of it, when I see Enroth bother to show up for November games against Columbus, I'll be more confident in him.

 

Harsh imho but I agree with the general message.

 

I understand your point. ;) I think you fail to see mine. Enroth didn't come up big because the team was in dire straits. Nobody could have won a game in net, and neither could Miller. Miller didn't come up big midseason either. NOBODY will ever win over the starting goaltender spot in BFLO as long as Miller and Ruff are here no matter how well he does. This goes back to my last post. He is their Golden Boy and nothing will change it.

 

 

 

You want my plan as if we were right at the trade dealine, or currently?

 

From trade deadline, as if the deadline were passed and we need to win 90% of the rest of the season.

 

I don't see that, I remember Ruff leaving Miller to get torched by the Wings to prove a point to a rookie with 2 games experience. I don't see him treating Enroth that badly in comparison. Miller's earnt his space but the problem isn't with the goaltending, its a waste of time arguement imho.