Enroth Disappointed

[SwampD]

I have no problem with Miller playing 60 games.

 

You can't say Enroth didn't have a fair chance. No wins in 11 straight starts didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence.

I'm not sure it was all that fair.

[X. Benedict]

I'm not sure it was all that fair.

 

Not saying there wasn't some co-morbidity of bad play on the ice - more precisely it is hard to point to where Enroth earned more playing time, while Miller was pretty much as good as he'd ever been down the stretch.

[JJFIVEOH]

Dec 31 vs OTT he had 44 saves on 46 shots. Overtime Loss

Jan 07 vs WPG he had 39 saves on 41 shots. Overtime Loss

Jan 14 vs NYI he have 36 saves on 39 shots

Jan 16 vs DET he replaced Miller and saved 12 of the 12 shots he faced

Jan 18 vs CHI he was awful 29 saves on 35 shots

Feb 16 vs PHI again, awful 15 saves on 18 shots. Replaced by Miller

Mar 8 vs BOS saves 25 of 28 shots

Apr 7 vs BOS saves 37 of 40 shots. Overtime Loss

 

Enroth wasn't to win games because the offense and defense were unable to score. With the exception of he game again CHI and PHI, Enroth was doing his job well. Lindy has no idea how to rotate his goaltenders. 35+ saves and 40+ saves on an almost consistent basis is no easy task.

 

He is more than a competent backup goalie. The lack of wins isn't so much of a reflection of him.

 

Excellent. Enroth was a victim of the team's worst stretch in recent history. Nobody was going to win games with the stretch they put on in the middle of the season. Enroth was hot to start the year, Enroth carried us to a playoff birth last year. There was a stretch of 8-10 games or so where the team didn't even average 1.5 GPG in support of Enroth. How any of this can be held against Enroth I just don't get it. And if he played so bad, combined with Miller's spectacular late season run....... Enroth still finished with a better save % than Miller. It isn't a matter of Lindy's handling of backup goaltenders, it's the entire staff's fascination with Miller being the Golden Boy. .9166 save % @ $675,000/yr VS. .9161 save % @ $6,250,000/yr.............. you be the judge. And the fans want to ditch other players for some cap relief?

[87168]

Excellent. Enroth was a victim of the team's worst stretch in recent history. Nobody was going to win games with the stretch they put on in the middle of the season. Enroth was hot to start the year, Enroth carried us to a playoff birth last year. There was a stretch of 8-10 games or so where the team didn't even average 1.5 GPG in support of Enroth. How any of this can be held against Enroth I just don't get it. And if he played so bad, combined with Miller's spectacular late season run....... Enroth still finished with a better save % than Miller. It isn't a matter of Lindy's handling of backup goaltenders, it's the entire staff's fascination with Miller being the Golden Boy. .9166 save % @ $675,000/yr VS. .9161 save % @ $6,250,000/yr.............. you be the judge. And the fans want to ditch other players for some cap relief?

 

:clapping:

[Eleven]

Dec 31 vs OTT he had 44 saves on 46 shots. Overtime Loss Jan 07 vs WPG he had 39 saves on 41 shots. Overtime Loss Jan 14 vs NYI he have 36 saves on 39 shots Jan 16 vs DET he replaced Miller and saved 12 of the 12 shots he faced Jan 18 vs CHI he was awful 29 saves on 35 shots Feb 16 vs PHI again, awful 15 saves on 18 shots. Replaced by Miller Mar 8 vs BOS saves 25 of 28 shots Apr 7 vs BOS saves 37 of 40 shots. Overtime Loss Enroth wasn't to win games because the offense and defense were unable to score. With the exception of he game again CHI and PHI, Enroth was doing his job well. Lindy has no idea how to rotate his goaltenders. 35+ saves and 40+ saves on an almost consistent basis is no easy task. He is more than a competent backup goalie. The lack of wins isn't so much of a reflection of him.

 

Agreed the team in front of him wasn't great, but we all know it was banged up.

 

Why did you start with Dec. 31?

 

On Nov. 16, he let in 5 goals on 19 shots to New Jersey.

Three days later, it was 3 goals on 28 shots to Phoenix.

He let Columbus score 14 on 18 shots on Nov. 25! COLUMBUS!

 

 

He didn't earn any more games than he started. "Enroth Disappointed," indeed.

[SwampD]

Not saying there wasn't some co-morbidity of bad play on the ice - more precisely it is hard to point to where Enroth earned more playing time, while Miller was pretty much as good as he'd ever been down the stretch.

I was actually thinking more about who he played and when. His last three games were 1 per month against Philly, Boston, Boston. That's not fair. Of his last eleven, nine were against playoff teams (higher seeded at that). I could go on, but I'll just say that when I compare his game log to Miller's, it doesn't seem like he had a fair chance.

[87168]

Agreed the team in front of him wasn't great, but we all know it was banged up.

 

Why did you start with Dec. 31?

 

On Nov. 16, he let in 5 goals on 19 shots to New Jersey.

Three days later, it was 3 goals on 28 shots to Phoenix.

He let Columbus score 14 on 18 shots on Nov. 25! COLUMBUS!

 

 

He didn't earn any more games than he started. "Enroth Disappointed," indeed.

 

'Cause I went to that game! :w00t:

[DumbPuck]

Agreed the team in front of him wasn't great, but we all know it was banged up.

 

Why did you start with Dec. 31?

 

On Nov. 16, he let in 5 goals on 19 shots to New Jersey.

Three days later, it was 3 goals on 28 shots to Phoenix.

He let Columbus score 14 on 18 shots on Nov. 25! COLUMBUS!

 

 

He didn't earn any more games than he started. "Enroth Disappointed," indeed.

 

I don't think this is a fair argument actually. Enroth's falloff in play directly correlated with Miller's falloff in play. The whole team was a mess. I don't think it mattered who you put out there at that point.

[Taro T]

Enroth maybe could have earned more time after Miller came back and was struggling....but let's be completely honest, with the team rapidly falling out of playoff contention and needing a late season push, would you have predicted Ruff would do anything other than ride Miller into the ground?

Nobody who's even passingly followed this team the past decade or so would have predicted Ruff would play Enroth at all down the stretch. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have played Enroth down the stretch occassionally.

 

In a regular regular season (not one where Miller is injured nor where the team finds itself tied for last in late January) I'd like to see Enroth get about 25 starts (not quite 1 every 3). Even in the stretch, it would have been good to put him in 1 every 7 or so. The thing is, the way the schedule was set up they'd had 13 of their back to backs by the Winnipeg road game just before St. Louis and only had 8 more after that IIRC. And for like 4 of those they had at least 2 days rest before the b-t-b, so they could pretty much always say that Miller had had enough rest before the next game.

 

So, absolutely, it could be predicted that LR would ride the hot Miller evey game. But maybe if Miller were a smidge fresher, he could have found a way to steal a game or 2 after the injuries started to re-crop up. Give Enroth say 5 games down the stretch rather than 2, and I'd expect Miller'd have fared better in the lost weekend than he and crew did.

[Ross Rhea]

Agreed the team in front of him wasn't great, but we all know it was banged up.

 

Why did you start with Dec. 31?

 

On Nov. 16, he let in 5 goals on 19 shots to New Jersey.

Three days later, it was 3 goals on 28 shots to Phoenix.

He let Columbus score 14 on 18 shots on Nov. 25! COLUMBUS!

 

 

He didn't earn any more games than he started. "Enroth Disappointed," indeed.

 

Enroth did not disappoint whatsoever to think otherwise is just stupid.

 

What did you expect/want from him?

 

I also love how he got the losses against the Pens and Flyers. He gave up goals 4,5,6, Miller gave up goals 1,2,3,7,8 but because they lost 8-3 Enroth is tagged with the loss just because he gave up goal #4. Then he gives up the the first 3, 2 on the PP and Miller comes in and gives up the next 4 and Enroth is tagged again for the loss because they only scored 2.

 

2 unjust losses imho

[JJFIVEOH]

Enroth did not disappoint whatsoever to think otherwise is just stupid.

 

What did you expect/want from him?

 

I also love how he got the losses against the Pens and Flyers. He gave up goals 4,5,6, Miller gave up goals 1,2,3,7,8 but because they lost 8-3 Enroth is tagged with the loss just because he gave up goal #4. Then he gives up the the first 3, 2 on the PP and Miller comes in and gives up the next 4 and Enroth is tagged again for the loss because they only scored 2.

 

2 unjust losses imho

 

Good point, I forgot about those.

[bunomatic]

except Enroth didn't show he could steal games, which is what Miller did down the stretch. I am one of the proponents that Lindy handles the goalie situation like crap, but the way Enroth was playing vs the way Miller was playing in the second half of the season, I can't blame Lindy for riding Miller.

 

I'm more disturbed by how Lindy rode Roy. :blink:

[RazielSabre]

Dec 31 vs OTT he had 44 saves on 46 shots. Overtime Loss

Jan 07 vs WPG he had 39 saves on 41 shots. Overtime Loss

Jan 14 vs NYI he have 36 saves on 39 shots

Jan 16 vs DET he replaced Miller and saved 12 of the 12 shots he faced

Jan 18 vs CHI he was awful 29 saves on 35 shots

Feb 16 vs PHI again, awful 15 saves on 18 shots. Replaced by Miller

Mar 8 vs BOS saves 25 of 28 shots

Apr 7 vs BOS saves 37 of 40 shots. Overtime Loss

 

Enroth wasn't to win games because the offense and defense were unable to score. With the exception of he game again CHI and PHI, Enroth was doing his job well. Lindy has no idea how to rotate his goaltenders. 35+ saves and 40+ saves on an almost consistent basis is no easy task.

 

He is more than a competent backup goalie. The lack of wins isn't so much of a reflection of him.

 

I'm not denying that but Miller was stealing games and Enroth just wasn't able to. In Ruff's situation most people would do the same thing. The fact that we should have not tried so furiously to make the playoffs and build for next year isn't the point.

 

Excellent. Enroth was a victim of the team's worst stretch in recent history. Nobody was going to win games with the stretch they put on in the middle of the season. Enroth was hot to start the year, Enroth carried us to a playoff birth last year. There was a stretch of 8-10 games or so where the team didn't even average 1.5 GPG in support of Enroth. How any of this can be held against Enroth I just don't get it. And if he played so bad, combined with Miller's spectacular late season run....... Enroth still finished with a better save % than Miller. It isn't a matter of Lindy's handling of backup goaltenders, it's the entire staff's fascination with Miller being the Golden Boy. .9166 save % @ $675,000/yr VS. .9161 save % @ $6,250,000/yr.............. you be the judge. And the fans want to ditch other players for some cap relief?

 

He wasn't able to steal games during a crucial run. I'm not saying he played bad, but Miller was lightning down the final run. He had a good rookie season. Didn't the team give him rookie of the year for that?

[Ross Rhea]

I'm not denying that but Miller was stealing games and Enroth just wasn't able to. In Ruff's situation most people would do the same thing. The fact that we should have not tried so furiously to make the playoffs and build for next year isn't the point.

 

 

 

He wasn't able to steal games during a crucial run. I'm not saying he played bad, but Miller was lightning down the final run. He had a good rookie season. Didn't the team give him rookie of the year for that?

 

during that stretch of bad "team play" Miller would not have stolen any games either. so the point is moot at best.

[RazielSabre]

during that stretch of bad "team play" Miller would not have stolen any games either. so the point is moot at best.

You have a crystal ball then?

 

I'm not saying he would have, just that Enroth didnt and wasnt the same afterwards. Miller did steal games at the end and the start of the season so Ruff did what any sensible coach would do.

[Ross Rhea]

You have a crystal ball then?

 

I'm not saying he would have, just that Enroth didnt and wasnt the same afterwards. Miller did steal games at the end and the start of the season so Ruff did what any sensible coach would do.

 

Don't need one, the numbers scream it out.

 

When Enroth played, the sabres had18 losses. In those 18 losses, the sabres scored exactly 32 goals. That is 1.77 goals average the team scored while Enroth partook in those 18 losses.

 

What more did you want him to do? The sabres scored an average of 1.77 goals in those 18 games where the team lost while Enroth played means he needed to only give up 1 goal or have a shut out in order to please you. Really!

[RazielSabre]

Don't need one, the numbers scream it out.

 

When Enroth played, the sabres had18 losses. In those 18 losses, the sabres scored exactly 32 goals. That is 1.77 goals average the team scored while Enroth partook in those 18 losses.

 

What more did you want him to do? The sabres scored an average of 1.77 goals in those 18 games where the team lost while Enroth played means he needed to only give up 1 goal or have a shut out in order to please you. Really!

 

You said Miller wouldn't have stolen any games, my point is that you can't guarantee that as it didn't happen. That is all. Enroth had a good season but people expecting him to have been played more during the last half of the season are ignoring the fact that taking Miller out while he was on form would have been stupid. Saying he didn't earn the playing time is NOT the same as saying his crap. I'm saying he didn't earn the playing time over Miller.

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm not denying that but Miller was stealing games and Enroth just wasn't able to. In Ruff's situation most people would do the same thing. The fact that we should have not tried so furiously to make the playoffs and build for next year isn't the point.

 

 

 

He wasn't able to steal games during a crucial run. I'm not saying he played bad, but Miller was lightning down the final run. He had a good rookie season. Didn't the team give him rookie of the year for that?

 

Miller didn't steal any games during that stretch either. Enroth was rarely given a shot in goal while the team was healthy. When he did it was early in the year and he was the talk of the league. Either way you look at it, even with Miller's stretch run, Enroth still had a better save % this year. Point is, $6.25 mil can go a long way to improve this offense during the offseason when you consider your backup goaltender still finished with a better save % considering 1/3 of his games were in relief of Miller and/or had significant time in between starts. When you completely rely on your $6 million man you're just asking for trouble. Take that money and improve elsewhere so you don't have to rely on a goaltender when you have somebody like Enroth who can do just as good. ;)

[Trettioåtta]

Miller didn't steal any games during that stretch either. Enroth was rarely given a shot in goal while the team was healthy. When he did it was early in the year and he was the talk of the league. Either way you look at it, even with Miller's stretch run, Enroth still had a better save % this year. Point is, $6.25 mil can go a long way to improve this offense during the offseason when you consider your backup goaltender still finished with a better save % considering 1/3 of his games were in relief of Miller and/or had significant time in between starts. When you completely rely on your $6 million man you're just asking for trouble. Take that money and improve elsewhere so you don't have to rely on a goaltender when you have somebody like Enroth who can do just as good. ;)

 

The fact Enroth had stats which were pretty much the same as Miller's (0.005 in it), yet played fewer games (by a long way) would suggest that he is not a starter (yet?).

Ward, Gigure, Osgood, Fleury, Neimi and Thomas were all a HUGE reason their teams won the cup. I am not sure Enroth could, Miller played amazingly down the stretch, which was the reason Enroth sat - Enroth last three proper starts he averaged below .9, which yes i know is hard when you don't play, but the point is that had he stolen those games Ruff would have more confidence putting him in.

 

A back-up earns ice time by stealing it from the starter. That is how it works with star goalies. Plus i am not too sure if having Ryan Sutter (who is the type of player we could get with that cash) combined with Enroth would actually steal more games than Miller could

[JJFIVEOH]

The fact Enroth had stats which were pretty much the same as Miller's (0.005 in it), yet played fewer games (by a long way) would suggest that he is not a starter (yet?).

Ward, Gigure, Osgood, Fleury, Neimi and Thomas were all a HUGE reason their teams won the cup. I am not sure Enroth could, Miller played amazingly down the stretch, which was the reason Enroth sat - Enroth last three proper starts he averaged below .9, which yes i know is hard when you don't play, but the point is that had he stolen those games Ruff would have more confidence putting him in.

 

A back-up earns ice time by stealing it from the starter. That is how it works with star goalies. Plus i am not too sure if having Ryan Sutter (who is the type of player we could get with that cash) combined with Enroth would actually steal more games than Miller could

 

Here's the thing about those goaltenders you mentioned. Aside from Thomas, none of those guys have been or were elite goaltenders. They didn't put up the numbers in the regular season to prove they could help to win a Cup either. In fact most of those goaltenders are actually pretty average in the regular season. Detroit didn't win because of Osgood, they won becuase they spent the $$ elsewhere to build a great team. Same could be said for Pittsburgh. Giguere and Niemi were flash in the pans. And your point about a goaltender stealing playoff games, I haven't seen Miller come up huge in postseason. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't turned the world upside down. When the Sabres went to the conference finals the two years after the lockout, it wasn't just because of Miller. And I don't think Ruff doesn't have confidence in Enroth, it's that Miller is their Golden Boy and he will be the go to guy no matter what happens.

 

Now going back to my point, $6.25 mil is way too much to be blowing in cap space for a goaltender. More often than not it has backfired. How is that working out for Vancouver/Juongo and Pens/Fleury this year?

 

We'll never know how Enroth can perform as a starter until he becomes a starter. And that will never happen with Miller here. Use the cap room elsewhere and stop relying on Miller. ;)

[Eleven]

Here's the thing about those goaltenders you mentioned. Aside from Thomas, none of those guys have been or were elite goaltenders. They didn't put up the numbers in the regular season to prove they could help to win a Cup either. In fact most of those goaltenders are actually pretty average in the regular season. Detroit didn't win because of Osgood, they won becuase they spent the $$ elsewhere to build a great team. Same could be said for Pittsburgh. Giguere and Niemi were flash in the pans. And your point about a goaltender stealing playoff games, I haven't seen Miller come up huge in postseason. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't turned the world upside down. When the Sabres went to the conference finals the two years after the lockout, it wasn't just because of Miller. And I don't think Ruff doesn't have confidence in Enroth, it's that Miller is their Golden Boy and he will be the go to guy no matter what happens. Now going back to my point, $6.25 mil is way too much to be blowing in cap space for a goaltender. More often than not it has backfired. How is that working out for Vancouver/Juongo and Pens/Fleury this year? We'll never know how Enroth can perform as a starter until he becomes a starter. And that will never happen with Miller here. Use the cap room elsewhere and stop relying on Miller. ;)

 

Regardless of the rest of it--and I do see some validity to your point about how the money is spent--Miller certainly has come up huge in playoff games. He's the reason the series went seven games last year.

 

As for the rest of it, when I see Enroth bother to show up for November games against Columbus, I'll be more confident in him.

[Trettioåtta]

Here's the thing about those goaltenders you mentioned. Aside from Thomas, none of those guys have been or were elite goaltenders. They didn't put up the numbers in the regular season to prove they could help to win a Cup either. In fact most of those goaltenders are actually pretty average in the regular season. Detroit didn't win because of Osgood, they won becuase they spent the $$ elsewhere to build a great team. Same could be said for Pittsburgh. Giguere and Niemi were flash in the pans. And your point about a goaltender stealing playoff games, I haven't seen Miller come up huge in postseason. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't turned the world upside down. When the Sabres went to the conference finals the two years after the lockout, it wasn't just because of Miller. And I don't think Ruff doesn't have confidence in Enroth, it's that Miller is their Golden Boy and he will be the go to guy no matter what happens.

 

Now going back to my point, $6.25 mil is way too much to be blowing in cap space for a goaltender. More often than not it has backfired. How is that working out for Vancouver/Juongo and Pens/Fleury this year?

 

We'll never know how Enroth can perform as a starter until he becomes a starter. And that will never happen with Miller here. Use the cap room elsewhere and stop relying on Miller. ;)

 

Agreed, you don't know he can be a starter till he is, but look at what Schnieder and Rask have done as back-ups.

Last year we went to 7 games because Miller got two shutouts, that is playing big in my opinion

 

I am not sure spending money on goaltending is a bad option.

Vancouver - Luongo - 5.33

Rangers - Lundqvist - 6.875

St Louis - Exception (Quite a lucky team atm)

Pittsburg - Fleury - 5

Nashville - Rinne - 7

Boston - Thomas - 5

 

Columbus - Mason - 2.9

Edmonton - Khabibulin - 3.75

Montreal - Price - 3 atm

Islanders - Who really knows - about 0.6

Toronto - Reimer - 1.8

 

Admittedly Price is in for a raise, probably about 5-6 mil? How/why bhulin is making that money i don't know.

 

But it is clear that the top teams spend money on goaltending and the bottom do not. So i think having a'big time' goalie is important. Miller is that, Enroth is a good back-up but nothing more atm

 

*Thomas and Luongo's cap hits are lower than they should be because of front loaded contracts - if we had Pegula when we signed Miller, i would expect his cap hit to be lower

[Ross Rhea]

You said Miller wouldn't have stolen any games, my point is that you can't guarantee that as it didn't happen. That is all. Enroth had a good season but people expecting him to have been played more during the last half of the season are ignoring the fact that taking Miller out while he was on form would have been stupid. Saying he didn't earn the playing time is NOT the same as saying his crap. I'm saying he didn't earn the playing time over Miller.

 

Maybe so, but Ruff was going to ride Miller regardless of how well Enroth played.

[JJFIVEOH]

Yes, Miller played great last year in the 1st round. It wouldn't have gone to game 7 without him. But here's one thing....... he didn't "steal" game 7 and we didn't win the series.

 

All these big name goaltenders that have been mentioned, their teams aren't successful only because of them. Lundqvist is an elite goaltender...... how have the Rangers done postseason-wise in his tenure there? Vancouver didn't go the finals last year on the back of Luongo. In fact they never should have made it past the 1st round because of him. Fluery is a bust this year in the post season. Carey Price I feel sorry for because he can be an elite goaltender, but there is another example that an elite goaltender doesn't always make you successful. The only excpetion to the rule I se at the moment (and over the last couple of years) is Thomas/Rask. Rinne is looking good, but he's still young. St. Louis got to where they are not because of their style of play. Not to take anything away from their goaltenders, but their defensive style does help.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trash Miller. I don't like his attitude, but I think that when he gets his head into the game he can be a difference maker. One problem I see is when he gets into a rut, it usually doesn't last a couple of games. It usually lasts weeks. The Sabres are atop the league in salary, and they need a #1 center and one or two more physical wingers. Miller can easily net a first round pick and so can Roy. That would free up over $10mil in cap space AND bring in two more 1st rounders. Which would give us four. That extra cap space and 4 first round picks can go a long way in making some big deals during the offseason so the Sabres won't have to rely on a goaltender.

 

That's just my 2 cents. :flirt:

[RazielSabre]

Miller didn't steal any games during that stretch either. Enroth was rarely given a shot in goal while the team was healthy. When he did it was early in the year and he was the talk of the league. Either way you look at it, even with Miller's stretch run, Enroth still had a better save % this year. Point is, $6.25 mil can go a long way to improve this offense during the offseason when you consider your backup goaltender still finished with a better save % considering 1/3 of his games were in relief of Miller and/or had significant time in between starts. When you completely rely on your $6 million man you're just asking for trouble. Take that money and improve elsewhere so you don't have to rely on a goaltender when you have somebody like Enroth who can do just as good. ;)

 

There is no proof that Enroth can handle the starting job, he hasn't done a bad job but what you're forgetting is that the kid has just finished his rookie season and when given playing time this year he lost confidence after not getting the wins. Miller has proven himself a capable starter and is the only reason we came CLOSE to the playoffs.

 

This team relies on its goalie to be great to win, even when we're scoring. We have done since Hasek. Enroth is NOT ready for that yet, he had a decent amount of playing time at the start of the season but Miller was hot right up to the end so what do you expect Ruff to do? Give the team LESS of a chance to win just to be fair. Thats stupid.

 

Ditching Miller for cash reasons is also daft, if we let Hecht and Boyes go thats about $8mill, then we have Kotalik and Morrisson (I know they don't count against the cap but its still cash). Then there are players like Roy, Stafford who have proven little at least this season. Thats without mentioning the defense (McNabb is ready for promotion imho). And you think Miller is important to get rid of?

 

Maybe so, but Ruff was going to ride Miller regardless of how well Enroth played.

Back to the crystal ball we go...