Game Discussion Thread GDT: Buffalo Sabres @ Winnipeg Jets 3/5/12 8:00PM

[LabattBlue]

The Sabres are far enough removed from that situation where they should take a long hard look at Vanek and his contract.

When I look at the core of Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Stafford and Miller, I can't honestly say that when their contracts are up, they MUST be re-signed. This core as a group is rotten, and the only way to fix it is to move the majority of them out whether is be via trade prior to their contact expiring, or letting them walk as UFA's when their contracts are done. I think if a new mix of players came in, Pominville and Miller(maybe Vanek) might be salvageable, but the rest need to GTFO sooner rather than later.

[LastPommerFan]

Really? What, exactly, about the complaint regarding the forwards was "not thought out" or lacked rationale? Do you think the Sabres' group of forwards is a quality group? If so, why?

 

Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it's not logical.

 

He attacked you ("people like you piss me off") and you are defending your post. There is a disconnect there.

[Robviously]

When I look at the core of Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Stafford and Miller, I can't honestly say that when their contracts are up, they MUST be re-signed. This core as a group is rotten, and the only way to fix it is to move the majority of them out whether is be via trade prior to their contact expiring, or letting them walk as UFA's when their contracts are done. I think if a new mix of players came in, Pominville and Miller(maybe Vanek) might be salvageable, but the rest need to GTFO sooner rather than later.

Why are Miller and Pominville salvageable but not Vanek?

 

I love that Pominville and Vanek carried the team for four months, but now they're ice cold so no one cares anymore.

[I am Defecting]

I think that if you go looking for excuses for Miller, or Vanek, it's easy to conjure them up. I too want them to be better than they are. However, it's a pretty solid point, imo, to say that if they are the highest paid players, you expect them to be the best performers on your team.

 

Maybe that's unrealistic, because we've seen these two players go hot and cold. We know that you can't necessarily count on them game in game out. Miller got all the credit for the shutouts, despite all of the goal line clearances by defensemen and forwards. Fair enough, then he can take some blame when we lose. If they don't play at an elite level, even for a game, they are not living up to the contracts, or the expectations.

 

Perhaps they could be managed better, but that's a discussion for the offseason, eh DeLuca?

[LabattBlue]

Why are Miller and Pominville salvageable but not Vanek?

 

I love that Pominville and Vanek carried the team for four months, but now they're ice cold so no one cares anymore.

Just my preference on Vanek. I don't like it when my highest paid forward has slumps that last two months. Also, I said they should look at keeping Pominville, so how does that fall under the category of "no one cares anymore"?

 

PS I said they MIGHT be salvageable.

[nfreeman]

He has more goals than Rene Robert and in less games. And he sure as hell isn't playing with Perrault and Martin.

 

Yes, he's horribly streaky. He's also played for mostly horrible teams. I just can't stand that no one ever misses an opportunity to declare "There are 30, 50, 100 NHL players I'd rather have!!!!1!" Yeah, no kidding. You could say that about literally every player on our team.

 

Well, that's a problem, innit?

 

The issue is that when you allocate 12% of your cap dollars to a guy, you need him to be a great player -- and not only because of resource allocation. I really believe that human nature dictates that the rest of the guys on the team look at the 3-4 highest-paid guys and if those 3-4 aren't bringing it hard, skillfully and consistently, the rest of them are much less likely to do so.

 

He attacked you ("people like you piss me off") and you are defending your post. There is a disconnect there.

 

Well, there are grownups in this world and there are those who are waiting for Mom to bring them their next helping of bangers and mash.

 

Why are Miller and Pominville salvageable but not Vanek?

 

I love that Pominville and Vanek carried the team for four months, but now they're ice cold so no one cares anymore.

 

Carried them where, exactly? To 2nd-last place in the EC?

[LTS]

Ok I may have only seen the highlights on NHL.com at the moment but I can see the team around Miller where at fault for all 3 goals. I'm sure he'd love to have 1 or 2 back but he also seemed to make some key saves early. The team let him down. The Thorburn goal had 'aging defensman' written all over it, Regehr should have dealt with him some other way knowing he didn't have the speed.

 

Was Miller perfect? Hell no, but saying it's his fault is quite short sighted. Also nice to notice 1 loss and you're back to normal. :D

 

Regehr is an aging defenseman and he's been put in that position a few times this year. I don't doubt his injury was a problem and I would prefer to see him NOT on the ice but he was. Regehr can't handle open ice speed that well, regardless of his injury. If that play is 3 feet more to his left he can pull the guy into the boards.

 

To be fair he shouldn't be playing then, we have 7 defensemen and Regehr is a -16.

 

Out of interest would an open ice check work in that instance? Not a hammering but enough to knock the puck out (or even a poke check). Again I haven't seen the game and only caught the highlights.

 

Furthering my thought from above.. even though it's Thorburn you have to respect the inside cut. If you go for the open ice hit where he was he would have completely missed him. He was playing to keep him outside without having the help of the boards to reduce space. He was beaten, that's simple.

 

Vanek isn't top 10, but his a talented forward who has good hands, good skill and good size. He also is the most talented player on the Sabres roster (Myers excluded). He often tries to play through his injuries and has always put the team first. He is a top line LW on most NHL teams and the ONLY offense we had through the first 3 months. Just because we lost to Winnipeg doesnt make the Sabres crap again, please calm down.

 

Yes, the Sabres were tired, yes the probably knew that when they went into the game (stunning that, someone knowing their tired). You really think they just thought they could lose this key match up. The fact is we aren't Calgary, our team identity isn't 'make the playoffs year after year but get nowhere'. We will win a Stanley Cup within a few years, if that means trying but failing to get into the playoffs this year big deal, I'll live with it. Ted Black has stated that and that is the clear direction of the team.

 

Regehr should have had Thorburn, Miller arguably should have had the save but we lost 3-1, not 2-1 so get over it.

 

God people like you piss me off.

 

 

Funny how most of you weren't saying that before this season or for the few games before the Winnipeg game.

 

I would have taken 4 first rounders for Vanek.. I'd take 4 first rounders for just about anyone. Vanek has decent size and great hands. He can clearly score goals. What Vanek does NOT have is the ability to withstand constant hits and his strength on the puck is lessened when he's not in almost perfect stance. Far too often I see him get bumped enough when turning, etc. to get knocked away from the puck. If he's squared up and has his legs right he's okay.

 

Vanek is NOT a puck carrying forward and I think that's the biggest problem on the team. Sure he can make moves and he's improved. He's perfectly fine with speed but then again most forwards are because the D have to respect the momentum. He doesn't separate well and gets caught a lot. He needs a play maker who can hold the puck and hit Vanek in position or within a few steps of getting off a great shot. The Sabres may have that but he isn't on the Vanek line at the moment.

 

For what Vanek is paid he should be a game changing forward and he's not. I think Miller is closer to being worth his value than Vanek. Pulling CapGeek and looking at players in Vanek's cap hit range:

 

Joe Thornton, Jarome Iginla, Jason Spezza, Scott Gomez, Patrick Marleau, Anze Kopitar, Steven Stamkos, Marian Gaborik, Dany Heatley, Mikko Koivu, Alexander Semin, Nicklas Backstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Paul Stastny, Vincent Lecavalier, Daniel Briere, Rick Nash, Patrick Kane.

 

Of that list, you see the busts stand out fast. Gomez (regardless of history), Kopitar (better than Vanek though), Koivu (Wild cornerstone), Semin (bust), and Stastny (lineage). I don't put Vanek in the same category as the rest. He COULD be..but hasn't been consistently.

[Punch]

I think that if you go looking for excuses for Miller, or Vanek, it's easy to conjure them up. I too want them to be better than they are. However, it's a pretty solid point, imo, to say that if they are the highest paid players, you expect them to be the best performers on your team.

 

Maybe that's unrealistic, because we've seen these two players go hot and cold. We know that you can't necessarily count on them game in game out. Miller got all the credit for the shutouts, despite all of the goal line clearances by defensemen and forwards. Fair enough, then he can take some blame when we lose. If they don't play at an elite level, even for a game, they are not living up to the contracts, or the expectations.

 

Perhaps they could be managed better, but that's a discussion for the offseason, eh DeLuca?

 

The only breathing room I'd afford Vanek due is to the quality of centermen he's played with... Derek Roy is anathema to his linemates. I'd like Roy a lot more if he were a 3rd line winger. I'd also wager Vanek's consistency and confidence would skyrocket if he were regularly on a wing with a talented and unselfish top 6 center.

 

Wednesday is a perfect opportunity to reset the lines: Vanek and Pominville with Hodgson, Ennis back at center and hopefully Leino on his wing.

[deluca67]

I think that if you go looking for excuses for Miller, or Vanek, it's easy to conjure them up. I too want them to be better than they are. However, it's a pretty solid point, imo, to say that if they are the highest paid players, you expect them to be the best performers on your team.

 

Maybe that's unrealistic, because we've seen these two players go hot and cold. We know that you can't necessarily count on them game in game out. Miller got all the credit for the shutouts, despite all of the goal line clearances by defensemen and forwards. Fair enough, then he can take some blame when we lose. If they don't play at an elite level, even for a game, they are not living up to the contracts, or the expectations.

 

Perhaps they could be managed better, but that's a discussion for the offseason, eh DeLuca?

They're veterans now not rookies. There isn't much Lindy should have to be doing right now in regards to coaching those two other than managing rest. Vanek knows the game he needs to play, we have all seen him play it. If you want to criticize Ruff for last night, it might have been a good time to fit Enroth in. With 8th sitting there right in front of them I can why he didn't.

[LabattBlue]

The only breathing room I'd afford Vanek due is to the quality of centermen he's played with... Derek Roy is anathema to his linemates. I'd like Roy a lot more if he were a 3rd line winger. I'd also wager Vanek's consistency and confidence would skyrocket if he were regularly on a wing with a talented and unselfish top 6 center.

 

Wednesday is a perfect opportunity to reset the lines: Vanek and Pominville with Hodgson, Ennis back at center and hopefully Leino on his wing.

So how is it that Vanek got off to a great Oct-Dec without the benefit of this "great" center? Could Vanek become a 50 goal scorer playing with Thornton, Sedin or Getzlaf? Probably, but there is no reason to fall off the map in Jan & Feb without that luxury.

[RazielSabre]

Just my preference on Vanek. I don't like it when my highest paid forward has slumps that last two months. Also, I said they should look at keeping Pominville, so how does that fall under the category of "no one cares anymore"?

 

PS I said they MIGHT be salvageable.

 

Your PS answers his question. Their the best players on this team and quality top liners. We don't have a quality top line center to help them and the problem isn't that their cold, its that we have no other offense on this team. Roy, Stafford are already players I'd lose and I'm quickly going off Gerbe.

[Robviously]

Well, that's a problem, innit?

 

The issue is that when you allocate 12% of your cap dollars to a guy, you need him to be a great player -- and not only because of resource allocation. I really believe that human nature dictates that the rest of the guys on the team look at the 3-4 highest-paid guys and if those 3-4 aren't bringing it hard, skillfully and consistently, the rest of them are much less likely to do so.

Yet, you don't complain about Miller nearly as much. His GAA this year is 2.60, good enough for 26th best in the league. His career GAA is 2.57 so even if he was doing his career norm, that would be 24th best in the league.

 

Where is the insane outrage? He's being paid so much money!!!!1! <_<

 

 

 

Carried them where, exactly? To 2nd-last place in the EC?

So if two guys are playing well on an entire team of guys who aren't playing well, you scoff at that? Yes, Pominville and Vanek should apologize for not being able to drag the entire team to first place on their own.

 

Also, Corey Tropp is the reason we lost last night. Why did he only score one goal? :rolleyes:

[deluca67]

Yet, you don't complain about Miller nearly as much. His GAA this year is 2.60, good enough for 26th best in the league. His career GAA is 2.57 so even if he was doing his career norm, that would be 24th best in the league.

 

Where is the insane outrage? He's being paid so much money!!!!1! <_<

 

 

So if two guys are playing well on an entire team of guys who aren't playing well, you scoff at that? Yes, Pominville and Vanek should apologize for not being able to drag the entire team to first place on their own.

 

Also, Corey Tropp is the reason we lost last night. Why did he only score one goal? :rolleyes:

Um, Hello, Hello, is anybody out there? Hello, Hello. :blink:

[RazielSabre]

Well, that's a problem, innit?

 

The issue is that when you allocate 12% of your cap dollars to a guy, you need him to be a great player -- and not only because of resource allocation. I really believe that human nature dictates that the rest of the guys on the team look at the 3-4 highest-paid guys and if those 3-4 aren't bringing it hard, skillfully and consistently, the rest of them are much less likely to do so.

 

 

 

Well, there are grownups in this world and there are those who are waiting for Mom to bring them their next helping of bangers and mash.

 

 

 

Carried them where, exactly? To 2nd-last place in the EC?

They were the only offense on the entire team, oh come on.

 

And yes I shouldn't have attacked you but I love your reply. For the record I wasn't purposely attacking, I was explaining that I was frustrated.

[R_Dudley]

Regehr was probably not healthy enough to play last night. On a play like that it's clear how difficult of a time he has rotating his hips and Thorburn got a bead on him. Before the hip flexor injury in San Jose, Regehr drives Thorburn into the corner and he never gets a shot off. He'll probably be fine in another few days.

To be fair he shouldn't be playing then, we have 7 defensemen and Regehr is a -16.

 

 

And for that I blame the coaching for taking Sulzer out and putting someone in not 100%

 

Last night with the tired legs and the size discrepancy among the forwards it was more than evident that this team just isn't built for a playoff run. Winnipeg had a simple gameplan of pounding us until we wilted which is what any team we possibly meet in the playoffs will do. When a normally non physical Nik Antropov can skate around and hit anything that moves and we have no answer for that its embarrassing.

 

Thank you and another reason I don't blame the players but the managment that has assembled this group.

 

Do you think I am unhappy "just because we lost to Winnipeg?" Or is it more likely due to the high likelihood that the Sabres will miss the playoffs (and thus fail to win a playoff round for the 5th year in a row) despite having the highest payroll in the NHL? Perhaps it has something to do with yet another dreary 3-1 loss in which the multitude of highly-paid forwards yet again fail to deliver any forecheck, offensive zone time, heart, intensity or scoring chances (let alone goals)? Or perhaps it's yet another terrible performance in a critical game?

 

I agree with your incisive observation that they lost 3-1 and not 2-1. To me that emphasizes how poor the forwards played last night. But perhaps I'm missing something.

 

As for TP and TG's ultimate goal, I agree with you that it's to win the SC and I too have confidence that they will get this franchise to where we all want it to go. In the meantime, I think I'm permitted to express unhappiness with the group of losers they've trotted out at forward for the past 5 years, delivering the same unacceptable results.

 

Wow not sure I've seen you quite here with your frustration before but excellant post especially the bolded parts.

 

Bottom line: Vanek isn't that good. Like many Sabres forwards, he has some talent, he's well overpaid and he doesn't show up in crunch time. I can name 50 NHL players I'd rather have without having to think hard about it.

 

 

But it's not about the Jets playing better at home. It's about the Sabres not showing up when it really matters.

 

 

My problem is that I think the Sabres -- especially the forwards -- went into the game thinking this way.

 

 

Nice, you are on point and a roll with these, let it all out brother.

 

I have accepted how it's going down with this team this year however my biggest concern from this season remains that somehow management does not quite see it the same. DR and LR have been in place so long it's almost a classic the king has no cloths scenario. It really is disenfrachising me from my favorite team.

[K-9]

God people like you piss me off.

 

Who are these "God People" you speak of?

 

Certainly DeLuca has a high opinion of himself but I don't think that even HE elevates himself to God level. Regier, maybe. But certainly not himself.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[deluca67]

And for that I blame the coaching for taking Sulzer out and putting someone in not 100%

 

 

 

Thank you and another reason I don't blame the players but the managment that has assembled this group.

 

 

 

Wow not sure I've seen you quite here with your frustration before but excellant post especially the bolded parts.

 

 

 

Nice, you are on point and a roll with these, let it all out brother.

 

I have accepted how it's going down with this team this year however my biggest concern from this season remains that somehow management does not quite see it the same. DR and LR have been in place so long it's almost a classic the king has no cloths scenario. It really is disenfrachising me from my favorite team.

Eh' hem! <_<

[RazielSabre]

Really? What, exactly, about the complaint regarding the forwards was "not thought out" or lacked rationale? Do you think the Sabres' group of forwards is a quality group? If so, why?

 

Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it's not logical.

 

Really don't know where to begin with this. You guys spout the same crap after every loss for years. The same 'Miller sucks' and 'we need a rebuild' and 'Vanek sucks, Pom sucks'. You guys won't be happy until time is turned backwards 20 years.

[deluca67]

Who are these "God People" you speak of?

 

Certainly DeLuca has a high opinion of himself but I don't think that even HE elevates himself to God level. Regier, maybe. But certainly not himself.

 

GO SABRES!!!

Just depends on who I am being compared to, like you for example. :w00t:

[RazielSabre]

Well, that's a problem, innit?

 

The issue is that when you allocate 12% of your cap dollars to a guy, you need him to be a great player -- and not only because of resource allocation. I really believe that human nature dictates that the rest of the guys on the team look at the 3-4 highest-paid guys and if those 3-4 aren't bringing it hard, skillfully and consistently, the rest of them are much less likely to do so.

 

 

 

Well, there are grownups in this world and there are those who are waiting for Mom to bring them their next helping of bangers and mash.

 

 

 

Carried them where, exactly? To 2nd-last place in the EC?

 

Nice work ignoring the top line completely, perfect example to answer your question about where your posts aren't logical sometimes.

 

As examples of players we need more from:

• Regehr: a -16. That really isn't enough.
  
• Roy: I can't add anything, I agree with most of you (while I don't believe his toxic though)
  
• Stafford: Ahem.
  
• Leino: I've given him time, now it's time to step up. I believe sticking him on the top line might help.
  
• Gerbe: I know we love the small guy but I'm not sold on him, maybe some size in his role would work better and Ennis is small enough.
  
• Boyes/Hecht: Hecht in particular should retire, 22 games? seriously? Boyes I think we all have discussed.
  

Vanek, Myers and Miller we always expect more from as our top players, I'm not saying thats wrong. I'm just saying let's have some perspective.

[Punch]

 

So how is it that Vanek got off to a great Oct-Dec without the benefit of this "great" center? Could Vanek become a 50 goal scorer playing with Thornton, Sedin or Getzlaf? Probably, but there is no reason to fall off the map in Jan & Feb without that luxury.

 

FWIW, I don't necessarily think Vanek needs a "great" center. Luke Adam may not be ready or consistent enough for top 6 NHL minutes but his skill set is a better fit than Roy.

[I am Defecting]

They're veterans now not rookies. There isn't much Lindy should have to be doing right now in regards to coaching those two other than managing rest. Vanek knows the game he needs to play, we have all seen him play it. If you want to criticize Ruff for last night, it might have been a good time to fit Enroth in. With 8th sitting there right in front of them I can why he didn't.

 

I wanted to do both of those things, but am a devoted soldier to the armistice, as you know.

[RazielSabre]

Regehr is an aging defenseman and he's been put in that position a few times this year. I don't doubt his injury was a problem and I would prefer to see him NOT on the ice but he was. Regehr can't handle open ice speed that well, regardless of his injury. If that play is 3 feet more to his left he can pull the guy into the boards.

 

 

 

Furthering my thought from above.. even though it's Thorburn you have to respect the inside cut. If you go for the open ice hit where he was he would have completely missed him. He was playing to keep him outside without having the help of the boards to reduce space. He was beaten, that's simple.

 

 

 

I would have taken 4 first rounders for Vanek.. I'd take 4 first rounders for just about anyone. Vanek has decent size and great hands. He can clearly score goals. What Vanek does NOT have is the ability to withstand constant hits and his strength on the puck is lessened when he's not in almost perfect stance. Far too often I see him get bumped enough when turning, etc. to get knocked away from the puck. If he's squared up and has his legs right he's okay.

 

Vanek is NOT a puck carrying forward and I think that's the biggest problem on the team. Sure he can make moves and he's improved. He's perfectly fine with speed but then again most forwards are because the D have to respect the momentum. He doesn't separate well and gets caught a lot. He needs a play maker who can hold the puck and hit Vanek in position or within a few steps of getting off a great shot. The Sabres may have that but he isn't on the Vanek line at the moment.

 

For what Vanek is paid he should be a game changing forward and he's not. I think Miller is closer to being worth his value than Vanek. Pulling CapGeek and looking at players in Vanek's cap hit range:

 

Joe Thornton, Jarome Iginla, Jason Spezza, Scott Gomez, Patrick Marleau, Anze Kopitar, Steven Stamkos, Marian Gaborik, Dany Heatley, Mikko Koivu, Alexander Semin, Nicklas Backstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Paul Stastny, Vincent Lecavalier, Daniel Briere, Rick Nash, Patrick Kane.

 

Of that list, you see the busts stand out fast. Gomez (regardless of history), Kopitar (better than Vanek though), Koivu (Wild cornerstone), Semin (bust), and Stastny (lineage). I don't put Vanek in the same category as the rest. He COULD be..but hasn't been consistently.

 

Top bolded: I've always liked your posts but I do call BS here, after the Drury/Briere fiasco Sabres fans would have lynched Regier. Check the season he got that contract from, 40 odd goals, 80 odd points if I remember right.

 

2nd Bolded: I don't know, but putting him with Leino might make more sense as Leino is a great puck carrier who can't finish. Does it? I would actually like to know what ya'll think on this.

[zow2]

Just not enough offensive finish ability to win consistently. Vancouver was an exception but it's like they need a "great" goaltending performance to win nearly every game. Even Hodgson comes to Buffalo and now, kerplunk,,,right on cue, he's not getting on the scoresheet either.

[waldo]

Regehr is an aging defenseman and he's been put in that position a few times this year. I don't doubt his injury was a problem and I would prefer to see him NOT on the ice but he was. Regehr can't handle open ice speed that well, regardless of his injury. If that play is 3 feet more to his left he can pull the guy into the boards.

 

 

 

Furthering my thought from above.. even though it's Thorburn you have to respect the inside cut. If you go for the open ice hit where he was he would have completely missed him. He was playing to keep him outside without having the help of the boards to reduce space. He was beaten, that's simple.

 

 

 

I would have taken 4 first rounders for Vanek.. I'd take 4 first rounders for just about anyone. Vanek has decent size and great hands. He can clearly score goals. What Vanek does NOT have is the ability to withstand constant hits and his strength on the puck is lessened when he's not in almost perfect stance. Far too often I see him get bumped enough when turning, etc. to get knocked away from the puck. If he's squared up and has his legs right he's okay.

 

Vanek is NOT a puck carrying forward and I think that's the biggest problem on the team. Sure he can make moves and he's improved. He's perfectly fine with speed but then again most forwards are because the D have to respect the momentum. He doesn't separate well and gets caught a lot. He needs a play maker who can hold the puck and hit Vanek in position or within a few steps of getting off a great shot. The Sabres may have that but he isn't on the Vanek line at the moment.

 

For what Vanek is paid he should be a game changing forward and he's not. I think Miller is closer to being worth his value than Vanek. Pulling CapGeek and looking at players in Vanek's cap hit range:

 

Joe Thornton, Jarome Iginla, Jason Spezza, Scott Gomez, Patrick Marleau, Anze Kopitar, Steven Stamkos, Marian Gaborik, Dany Heatley, Mikko Koivu, Alexander Semin, Nicklas Backstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Paul Stastny, Vincent Lecavalier, Daniel Briere, Rick Nash, Patrick Kane.

 

Of that list, you see the busts stand out fast. Gomez (regardless of history), Kopitar (better than Vanek though), Koivu (Wild cornerstone), Semin (bust), and Stastny (lineage). I don't put Vanek in the same category as the rest. He COULD be..but hasn't been consistently.

 

There is no place here for posters who actually understand the game ..Please stop posting.