Agree to disagree, for now.

[Eleven]

I'm not understanding your outrage given you never indicated you were part of the truce.

 

1) Outrage?

 

2) It's in some GDT right after I got back from a vacation on 3/9, 3/10 or so. Search "armistice," I think; someone was using that word. I wasn't aware of this thread, but I sure thought it was a good idea, and I just as sure held my thoughts just like everyone else.

 

EDIT: Here you go: http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/21085-gdt-canadiens-at-buffalo-31212-700pm/page__st__40__p__374829#entry374829

 

I didn't say that there were posts that should be considered to be interpreted as 'Darcy's great' or 'Lindy's wonderful' in the runup to this weekend.

 

I tried to briefly provide my reasoning why it wasn't shocking to see heck break loose a few games early.

 

Part of our disconnect on why this should / shouldn't have been expected might be explained by the statement bolded above. I never got the feeling that there was a pent up 'Darcy / Lindy are great' primal scream building and waiting for release. Granted I haven't been here as often as in the past, but I just never got that impression. If I'm not interpreting your statement correctly, apologies in advance.

 

I think it's I who isn't interpreting your original statement correctly, but that's all right, I guess. This is getting silly.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Here's the deal guys....everyone is right.

 

Just the fact that everyone here is sick of each other's same old sh!t the past 5 years should be clue enough to Mr. Pegula that the results of his team are predictable and stale. It's the same script...same types of players....same inconsistant effort...same results....and same damn "debate" and bickering here.

 

There is nothing fresh to really disect other than a rare trade, or for a few days in July. Team Stormcloud dominates for much of the year as the team floats, then the believers can't wait to beat down the critics once the team puts together a nice run.

 

Bottom line....5 years...0 series wins.......and this off a year with the highest payroll in the NHL.

 

I'm sick of the bickering too. There is no solution however. Status Quo is in lockdown and a similar script waiting in the wings. Maybe it's time to just fizzle into the sunset for a lot of us. Nothing is going to change. Either you respect everyone here and their right to having an opinion, or you end up with a reduced room full of yes-men in many regards. What will happen when Ted Black, and Schopp, and some fans have no boogeyman left to blame....when those fans in their "negativity bubble"........just walk out because they have lost all hope of real change? Who is the bad guy then? I guess it will only be injuries and the refs.

 

This year was just too long for me. There was hope going into this year with Pegula, but I'm tired of bringing ideas that are meaningless because Status Quo is in command...now and forever.

[Taro T]

1) Outrage?

 

2) It's in some GDT right after I got back from a vacation on 3/9, 3/10 or so. Search "armistice," I think; someone was using that word. I wasn't aware of this thread, but I sure thought it was a good idea, and I just as sure held my thoughts just like everyone else.

 

EDIT: Here you go: http://forums.sabres...829#entry374829

 

 

 

I think it's I who isn't interpreting your original statement correctly, but that's all right, I guess. This is getting silly.

Getting?!? ;)

[Guest]

Wow, I have three daughters, two of them teenagers, and I have never heard so much drama. I'll admit I am quick to call this team/organization out when things go south, but I am also one of the biggest supporters when things are bad. I may talk shiit about this team, but I will NEVER turn my back on them. That's what being a sports fan is about, dealing with the bad as well as the good. People that think everything should be rosy no matter how crappy things are going are not dealing with reality, period!!!! If anyone can sit through 4 Superbowl loses, no goal, no Bills playoffs year after year and the Sabres battling for a playoff berth only to get bounced in the first round lately AND still think things are okay and remain positive are really ###### in the head. How many more empty promises can true Buffalo sports fans take? Underachieving is not acceptable anymore!!! But until the day I die, I will ALWAYS be a diehard Sabres/Bills fan. For this reason, and the fact I spend my hard earned money on tickets, jerseys and plenty of other memorabilia gives me the right to speak my mind whether it's positive or negative.

[nfreeman]

I'm sick of the bickering too. There is no solution however. Status Quo is in lockdown and a similar script waiting in the wings. Maybe it's time to just fizzle into the sunset for a lot of us. Nothing is going to change. Either you respect everyone here and their right to having an opinion, or you end up with a reduced room full of yes-men in many regards. What will happen when Ted Black, and Schopp, and some fans have no boogeyman left to blame....when those fans in their "negativity bubble"........just walk out because they have lost all hope of real change? Who is the bad guy then? I guess it will only be injuries and the refs.

 

This year was just too long for me. There was hope going into this year with Pegula, but I'm tired of bringing ideas that are meaningless because Status Quo is in command...now and forever.

 

I just wanted to wait until the end of the agreed armistice period before the offseason recriminations began.

 

Wow, I have three daughters, two of them teenagers, and I have never heard so much drama. I'll admit I am quick to call this team/organization out when things go south, but I am also one of the biggest supporters when things are bad. I may talk shiit about this team, but I will NEVER turn my back on them. That's what being a sports fan is about, dealing with the bad as well as the good. People that think everything should be rosy no matter how crappy things are going are not dealing with reality, period!!!! If anyone can sit through 4 Superbowl loses, no goal, no Bills playoffs year after year and the Sabres battling for a playoff berth only to get bounced in the first round lately AND still think things are okay and remain positive are really ###### in the head. How many more empty promises can true Buffalo sports fans take? Underachieving is not acceptable anymore!!! But until the day I die, I will ALWAYS be a diehard Sabres/Bills fan. For this reason, and the fact I spend my hard earned money on tickets, jerseys and plenty of other memorabilia gives me the right to speak my mind whether it's positive or negative.

 

Great post, especially the first part.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

It's all my fault I should have never brought up the idea of catching Ottawa, I jinxed the team on a great run. Hopefully the owner and president will take a deep look at this season and make decisions about the future that will bring us a cup or five

[deluca67]

Here's the deal guys....everyone is right.

 

Just the fact that everyone here is sick of each other's same old sh!t the past 5 years should be clue enough to Mr. Pegula that the results of his team are predictable and stale. It's the same script...same types of players....same inconsistant effort...same results....and same damn "debate" and bickering here.

 

There is nothing fresh to really disect other than a rare trade, or for a few days in July. Team Stormcloud dominates for much of the year as the team floats, then the believers can't wait to beat down the critics once the team puts together a nice run.

 

Bottom line....5 years...0 series wins.......and this off a year with the highest payroll in the NHL.

 

I'm sick of the bickering too. There is no solution however. Status Quo is in lockdown and a similar script waiting in the wings. Maybe it's time to just fizzle into the sunset for a lot of us. Nothing is going to change. Either you respect everyone here and their right to having an opinion, or you end up with a reduced room full of yes-men in many regards. What will happen when Ted Black, and Schopp, and some fans have no boogeyman left to blame....when those fans in their "negativity bubble"........just walk out because they have lost all hope of real change? Who is the bad guy then? I guess it will only be injuries and the refs.

 

This year was just too long for me. There was hope going into this year with Pegula, but I'm tired of bringing ideas that are meaningless because Status Quo is in command...now and forever.

This year has seemed incredibly long. Maybe because it just seems that it is a continuation of last season. That it all melts in to one. I'm sure many of us who are considered "negative" woudl love to have a different message. That's not going to happen unless something changes with the franchise significant enough to change certain posters opinions. "Status Quo" is a well earned nickname for this management team. You say five years without a series win. I look at 4 playoff seasons out of 10 seasons. There are many ways to break down the job Status Quo has done post Hasek. One word you can't use realistically is "successful." The level of future success is directly related to the level of changes Pegula is willing to make.

[HopefulFuture]

As a team storm cloud member, I've stayed silent during the teams nice run in the second half of this season hoping they would pull off the playoff push.

 

I can't say whether they will or will not achieve it since there is still a chance, albeit a small one, that they get in.

 

What I can say is that I was a Darcy Regier hater, but the moves in the last off season combined with the deadline have had a definitive impact on my thoughts on him. He is capable of pulling off some deals and bringing in some talent when given the "financial chains are off" atmosphere Pegula created. That, to me in any event, is the single largest catalyst for my renewed hope for the club moving forward. I now have a renewed sense of fandom I haven't had for the club in 4 or 5 years now.

 

As for Ruff, I was never a large hater of his, although, as any fan, I don't like certain things he's done decision wise, both in game and with the players he's been given. I don't believe he is a bad coach by any stretch of the imagination however.

 

With that newly formed opinion based on the changing circumstances created directly by the purchase of the team with Pegula, I now know patience is the only virtue I am focusing on.

Do we make the playoffs this year?

I don't care if we do or if we don't to be honest, I am more focused on Cup Contention then a mere symbolic appearance in this years post season, and I like what I see so far.

As for talk on hurting our draft position due to the run and so on, that talk is pure nonsense, these players and management are competitive, it never entered their minds to consider tanking in the hopes of a more gifted talent being obtained and I like that mentality above all else.

 

Do I believe the team is headed in the right direction?

I've already answered that, and Pegula did state contention within 3 years, and to me, it appears they have righted the ship and are headed in that direction.

 

What to do this off season?

Well, this will be debated time and again from now until draft day then free agency.

My own opinion?

Yes, trade Vanek and one or both of the 1st rounders on draft day and go after Parise.

Will it happen?

I don't know, but to bring in a LW of his caliber, who to me in any event is a cut above Vanek only furthers our chance of success.

Does this mean Vanek is a bust or not worthy of staying based on ability?

Absolutely not, but in the end, we must be willing to let go of those things we are accustomed to in an effort to move forward with the pre-stated goal of Cup Contention.

What other moves to make?

Don't bring Goose back IMO, that ship has sailed.

Keep Pominville, he's steady and produces, well worth keeping.

Trade Luke Adam?

No, not in my opinion, let him spend some time in the "A" to develop, we are still shallow on center depth overall.

 

By no means am I a Miller fan, which is well documented in this message board, but even I must concede when I am wrong, and Miller is more than worthy of finishing his current contract here IMO. He's earned the right.

 

What of the defense?

Outside of line chemistry in the forward ranks (which appears to be sorting itself out for a start with the emergence of the Ennis/Foligno/Stafford line) I consider Buffalo's defense the largest question mark. Will the young talent we have grooming both in the "A" and here with the big club be enough to solidify the pairings and ultimately, bring stability to the blueline? Only time will tell, but I must be honest here and say I am very optimistic about the situation given the stable of young talent across the pipeline.

 

And last but not least, what should the teams focus be on this off season given what I've spoken on??

Well, it's merely opinion based, but I truly believe the construction of a second scoring line, whether you call it line 1 or 2 can always be a delightful debate, combined with the stabilizing of a 3rd, secondary scoring line with a decent shut down center should be the emphasis of the club this off season.

 

How does all of this fit into this threads original intent?

Simply put, Pegula had a 3 year window where he'd like contention to be the emphasis, I am of the opinion the team is steadfast on this track.

Once again, I see a Hopeful Future.

[LTS]

Wow.. I'm glad I didn't bother to look at the GDTs I guess.

 

This thread is rather hilarious if you extricate yourself from the trenches. Let me make some suggestions:

 

Build your argument properly. Let me illustrate:

 

If you believe the owner is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the team president if the problem, stop here.

If you believe the GM is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the coach is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the players are a problem, stop here.

 

What I hear, time and time again, is that no moves matter as long as Ruff is coach. That's fine, you can have that opinion but I would also state that there's no need to get involved in a player discussion at that point. If you think Regier can never bring in the right players or the coach then don't get involved in player or coach discussions because your only argument is that the GM needs to go before there's any hope.

 

Far too often I feel like people interject themselves into a conversation just to derail it. There's a conversation about Hodgson and you only have to go 3 replies before some nitwit interjects "Let's see how long before Ruff ruins him." Why even bother commenting? You are going to say that about every player. Is it that important to you that you get your shot in? Are you the cool kid now? Hey look here comes Poster X, gee I wonder what he'll say. Oh yea..

 

As a follow up to that point, far too often I see people actually respond to the same drivel over and over again. Why bother? If Poster X is so keen on derailing the thread just ignore Poster X. You already know his points and you already know how he'll respond to anything you have to say.

 

Going forward, I would suggest that you feel free to state your case on what needs to happen but leave yourself out of arguments that no longer pertain to you unless you can keep your comments framed inside the context of the thread.

 

Rather than tell someone else what they said or what they meant ask them to clarify their position. Rather than talk AT each other why not talk TO each other.

 

You don't have to do this.. but really what's the point in not doing it. In the grand scheme of things you are on an Internet forum, having wildly emphatic debates about a group of individuals who get paid a lot of money and really don't give a damn what you think. Doesn't it just make more sense to engage in a healthy discussion as opposed to vitriolic bickering?

[darksabre]

Wow.. I'm glad I didn't bother to look at the GDTs I guess.

 

This thread is rather hilarious if you extricate yourself from the trenches. Let me make some suggestions:

 

Build your argument properly. Let me illustrate:

 

If you believe the owner is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the team president if the problem, stop here.

If you believe the GM is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the coach is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the players are a problem, stop here.

 

What I hear, time and time again, is that no moves matter as long as Ruff is coach. That's fine, you can have that opinion but I would also state that there's no need to get involved in a player discussion at that point. If you think Regier can never bring in the right players or the coach then don't get involved in player or coach discussions because your only argument is that the GM needs to go before there's any hope.

 

Far too often I feel like people interject themselves into a conversation just to derail it. There's a conversation about Hodgson and you only have to go 3 replies before some nitwit interjects "Let's see how long before Ruff ruins him." Why even bother commenting? You are going to say that about every player. Is it that important to you that you get your shot in? Are you the cool kid now? Hey look here comes Poster X, gee I wonder what he'll say. Oh yea..

 

As a follow up to that point, far too often I see people actually respond to the same drivel over and over again. Why bother? If Poster X is so keen on derailing the thread just ignore Poster X. You already know his points and you already know how he'll respond to anything you have to say.

 

Going forward, I would suggest that you feel free to state your case on what needs to happen but leave yourself out of arguments that no longer pertain to you unless you can keep your comments framed inside the context of the thread.

 

Rather than tell someone else what they said or what they meant ask them to clarify their position. Rather than talk AT each other why not talk TO each other.

 

You don't have to do this.. but really what's the point in not doing it. In the grand scheme of things you are on an Internet forum, having wildly emphatic debates about a group of individuals who get paid a lot of money and really don't give a damn what you think. Doesn't it just make more sense to engage in a healthy discussion as opposed to vitriolic bickering?

 

I think I love you.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Wow.. I'm glad I didn't bother to look at the GDTs I guess.

 

This thread is rather hilarious if you extricate yourself from the trenches. Let me make some suggestions:

 

Build your argument properly. Let me illustrate:

 

If you believe the owner is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the team president if the problem, stop here.

If you believe the GM is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the coach is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the players are a problem, stop here.

 

What I hear, time and time again, is that no moves matter as long as Ruff is coach. That's fine, you can have that opinion but I would also state that there's no need to get involved in a player discussion at that point. If you think Regier can never bring in the right players or the coach then don't get involved in player or coach discussions because your only argument is that the GM needs to go before there's any hope.

 

Far too often I feel like people interject themselves into a conversation just to derail it. There's a conversation about Hodgson and you only have to go 3 replies before some nitwit interjects "Let's see how long before Ruff ruins him." Why even bother commenting? You are going to say that about every player. Is it that important to you that you get your shot in? Are you the cool kid now? Hey look here comes Poster X, gee I wonder what he'll say. Oh yea..

 

As a follow up to that point, far too often I see people actually respond to the same drivel over and over again. Why bother? If Poster X is so keen on derailing the thread just ignore Poster X. You already know his points and you already know how he'll respond to anything you have to say.

 

Going forward, I would suggest that you feel free to state your case on what needs to happen but leave yourself out of arguments that no longer pertain to you unless you can keep your comments framed inside the context of the thread.

 

Rather than tell someone else what they said or what they meant ask them to clarify their position. Rather than talk AT each other why not talk TO each other.

 

You don't have to do this.. but really what's the point in not doing it. In the grand scheme of things you are on an Internet forum, having wildly emphatic debates about a group of individuals who get paid a lot of money and really don't give a damn what you think. Doesn't it just make more sense to engage in a healthy discussion as opposed to vitriolic bickering?

 

well said.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Good point LTS.

 

I think it really doesn't matter since it is a deadly combo of GM/Coach/Players. We got Quinn out of here and it was worth sticking around with great hope that things would seriously change. The results are in......hence, I said to d4rk, don't worry...I think a bunch of us will be fizzling into the sunset.

 

I was quiet the first quarter of the season. Then Lucic happened.....then the swan dive happened. It was now or never to gain momentum for a real change of consequence. The only change was 3 months later when we traded away our best power forward prospect in over a decade for another skilled, soft forward.

 

There will be no change. I can't speak for others, but I can't see myself hanging around for the entertainment involved. I probably post more for the time invested here and the posters involved than I do because of the team itself anymore. It's like keeping in touch with the family of a patient long after the patient has died. You went through some things together and liked them and felt for them, so you kept in touch.

[darksabre]

Good point LTS.

 

I think it really doesn't matter since it is a deadly combo of GM/Coach/Players. We got Quinn out of here and it was worth sticking around with great hope that things would seriously change. The results are in......hence, I said to d4rk, don't worry...I think a bunch of us will be fizzling into the sunset.

 

I was quiet the first quarter of the season. Then Lucic happened.....then the swan dive happened. It was now or never to gain momentum for a real change of consequence. The only change was 3 months later when we traded away our best power forward prospect in over a decade for another skilled, soft forward.

 

There will be no change. I can't speak for others, but I can't see myself hanging around for the entertainment involved. I probably post more for the time invested here and the posters involved than I do because of the team itself anymore. It's like keeping in touch with the family of a patient long after the patient has died. You went through some things together and liked them and felt for them, so you kept in touch.

 

I am sorry that you feel the way you do about the Sabres. I'll just be straight with you. I don't desire to have the opinions that you do about the Sabres. It seems to me that you aren't having any fun anymore. Even when this team is winning games, you're not having fun.

 

If something isn't fun, then there's no reason to do it. Especially when it's just a hobby.

 

But there are plenty of us who, despite all the problems the Sabres have from management through players, are still having fun. The pain of loss is just as much a part of it as the joy of winning. Red Sox fans waited 86 years for a 6th Championship. If they could do it, then so can I.

 

Because I'm still having fun.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I am sorry that you feel the way you do about the Sabres. I'll just be straight with you. I don't desire to have the opinions that you do about the Sabres. It seems to me that you aren't having any fun anymore. Even when this team is winning games, you're not having fun.

 

If something isn't fun, then there's no reason to do it. Especially when it's just a hobby.

 

But there are plenty of us who, despite all the problems the Sabres have from management through players, are still having fun. The pain of loss is just as much a part of it as the joy of winning. Red Sox fans waited 86 years for a 6th Championship. If they could do it, then so can I.

 

Because I'm still having fun.

 

Very good points. I was having fun last year when they made a run because new blood was playing with an attitude. Gerbe and Weber were great, and Ennis tried for every loose puck. Myers was coming around.....I was proud of their effort.

 

This year they were exposed so badly that I wasn't going to buy into the "we can turn it on like last year". It's just an arrogance that nobody should have, let alone a mediocre group of traditional floaters.

 

Here's the problem with comparing the Sabres to almost any other fandom or fanbase. I always supported them and rooted for them no matter what......but how often do you see utter failure with the same group sticking around for this long? You don't. They will have won playoff series in 2 years coming out of the lockout with a gift set of rules changes....sandwiched by 3 years and 5 years of nothing. The Bills, for as putrid as they have been.....at least TRIED a different approach. 4 GMs and 4 coaches to finally get it right. If they didn't get rid of Donahoe and Mularkey, I was seriously debating only 1 more year of patience.

 

Ruff and Regier are an anomoly for never having accomplished "greatness". Heck, they have been here 60% of your life. You don't know anything else. They have also built and supported a team in their image. I have just slowly seen the half-life of my patience and fandom sucked out of me since July 1st, 2007. I don't trust these people. I don't understand why so many do.

 

For the most part everyone around here is cool and I enjoy talking sports. I wish I could respect this team and the people involved, but I just can't. In terms of being human, I can respect many of them, but in terms of how the team has operated and performed, and their individual roles.....I just can't do it in many cases.

 

I will always be a Sabres fan because they represent Buffalo. I just feel like an occupied territory right now. We have tried and failed to rid our oppressors, but without a big enough organic uprising, it is futile to fight.

 

I guess it's time to go Galt concerning the Sabres.

[darksabre]

Very good points. I was having fun last year when they made a run because new blood was playing with an attitude. Gerbe and Weber were great, and Ennis tried for every loose puck. Myers was coming around.....I was proud of their effort.

 

This year they were exposed so badly that I wasn't going to buy into the "we can turn it on like last year". It's just an arrogance that nobody should have, let alone a mediocre group of traditional floaters.

 

Here's the problem with comparing the Sabres to almost any other fandom or fanbase. I always supported them and rooted for them no matter what......but how often do you see utter failure with the same group sticking around for this long? You don't. They will have won playoff series in 2 years coming out of the lockout with a gift set of rules changes....sandwiched by 3 years and 5 years of nothing. The Bills, for as putrid as they have been.....at least TRIED a different approach. 4 GMs and 4 coaches to finally get it right. If they didn't get rid of Donahoe and Mularkey, I was seriously debating only 1 more year of patience.

 

Ruff and Regier are an anomoly for never having accomplished "greatness". Heck, they have been here 60% of your life. You don't know anything else. They have also built and supported a team in their image. I have just slowly seen the half-life of my patience and fandom sucked out of me since July 1st, 2007. I don't trust these people. I don't understand why so many do.

 

For the most part everyone around here is cool and I enjoy talking sports. I wish I could respect this team and the people involved, but I just can't. In terms of being human, I can respect many of them, but in terms of how the team has operated and performed, and their individual roles.....I just can't do it in many cases.

 

I will always be a Sabres fan because they represent Buffalo. I just feel like an occupied territory right now. We have tried and failed to rid our oppressors, but without a big enough organic uprising, it is futile to fight.

 

I guess it's time to go Galt concerning the Sabres.

 

Maybe that's a natural progression then. I can't say I wouldn't feel the same way if I had been following the team for as long as some here have.

 

I understand your point of view. And the point of view of other vocal dissenters here.

 

What I don't understand is this seemingly inconsiderate desire to force discontent on others. To attempt to break apart the optimist attitudes of many who post here. You clearly see the team in a different light than a lot of us do, and it clearly affects the way you feel about them in every facet of what's left of your fanhood. You want so much to believe you know what is right for the team, and for us to believe you know what is right for the team, that you forget that none of us really have any idea. Is the long tenure of Ruff and Regier a bad thing? No idea. Could this team challenge for the Cup next year? We don't know. Is Stafford actually a good hockey player? We don't know.

 

Uncertainty is part of the fun.

 

So many complain about how they are sick of "what if?" and "maybe next year", but isn't that the ESSENCE of sport? The uncertainty of success?

 

Attempting to prove certainty about things that are uncertain has made you crazy.

[Weave]

Wow.. I'm glad I didn't bother to look at the GDTs I guess.

 

This thread is rather hilarious if you extricate yourself from the trenches. Let me make some suggestions:

 

Build your argument properly. Let me illustrate:

 

If you believe the owner is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the team president if the problem, stop here.

If you believe the GM is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the coach is the problem, stop here.

If you believe the players are a problem, stop here.

 

What I hear, time and time again, is that no moves matter as long as Ruff is coach. That's fine, you can have that opinion but I would also state that there's no need to get involved in a player discussion at that point. If you think Regier can never bring in the right players or the coach then don't get involved in player or coach discussions because your only argument is that the GM needs to go before there's any hope.

 

Far too often I feel like people interject themselves into a conversation just to derail it. There's a conversation about Hodgson and you only have to go 3 replies before some nitwit interjects "Let's see how long before Ruff ruins him." Why even bother commenting? You are going to say that about every player. Is it that important to you that you get your shot in? Are you the cool kid now? Hey look here comes Poster X, gee I wonder what he'll say. Oh yea..

 

As a follow up to that point, far too often I see people actually respond to the same drivel over and over again. Why bother? If Poster X is so keen on derailing the thread just ignore Poster X. You already know his points and you already know how he'll respond to anything you have to say.

 

Going forward, I would suggest that you feel free to state your case on what needs to happen but leave yourself out of arguments that no longer pertain to you unless you can keep your comments framed inside the context of the thread.

 

Rather than tell someone else what they said or what they meant ask them to clarify their position. Rather than talk AT each other why not talk TO each other.

 

You don't have to do this.. but really what's the point in not doing it. In the grand scheme of things you are on an Internet forum, having wildly emphatic debates about a group of individuals who get paid a lot of money and really don't give a damn what you think. Doesn't it just make more sense to engage in a healthy discussion as opposed to vitriolic bickering?

 

Who asked for your opinion anyway? :P

[TrueBlueGED]

Uncertainty is part of the fun.

 

So many complain about how they are sick of "what if?" and "maybe next year", but isn't that the ESSENCE of sport? The uncertainty of success?

 

Attempting to prove certainty about things that are uncertain has made you crazy.

 

To me, this nails it. In every professional sport, all but 1 team is left asking those questions. Even success one year does not guarantee it the next year....as a recent example look at Tampa Bay, they were a goal away from a Cup appearance and this year they're worse than the Sabres. And even teams that are consistently competitive are left asking those questions....different sport, but look at the Braves of the 90s who won the division yearly and ended up with only 1 championship.

 

Lastly, the dirty little secret about sports (and to an extent, life) that most people don't like admitting, is that luck matters. And more than just a little. Would Mitt Romney be worth a few hundred million if he was born into an average family? Would George W. Bush have been president if he was born into another family? Would Andrew Cuomo be governor of New York if his last name wasn't Cuomo? Would Aaron Rodgers have turned into a dominant QB if he was drafted by the dreadful 49ers? Would the 05-07 Sabres have been so successful if the refs didn't enforce the rule changes following the lockout? Would the Bills ever have gone to the Super Bowl even once if the USFL didn't fold? Would the San Antonio Spurs have won ANY championships if David Robinson didn't miss the season that Tim Duncan was coming out, allowing them to win the lottery and draft the greatest power forward ever? Would the Capitals REALLY be behind Florida in the division if Backstrom didn't miss 2 months with a concussion?

 

Why is it so hard in sports to repeat as champions? Is it because the champion becomes so much worse than the competition, or the competition catches up so much, that the defending champs can't repeat? Two years ago it looked like the Celtics were going to win back to back NBA championships, but then KG blew out his knee. They still almost got back to the Finals...but could anybody with a straight face say they SHOULD have gotten back in spite of KG's absence? How is it that some player can go from busting their hump to score but getting no results, to going on a ridiculous hot streak? Luck. Several years ago Hossa left Pittsburgh in the offseason to sign with the Red Wings, to win a Cup. Next year it's a Penguins-Red Wings rematch, and this time the Penguins win. Was Hossa wrong for switching teams, is there something he missed in his decision calculus? Not really. To oversimplify things...Datsyuk got hurt and was a shadow of himself in the finals, and the Wings lost. Luck (in this case, bad luck for Hossa). Sometimes luck goes a player or a team's way, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it all evens out over the course of the season, sometimes it doesn't.

 

Part of what's fun about being a sports fan is the "what ifs" and discussions involving them. Would sports really be fun if you could toss everything into a spreadsheet and have a computer tell you exactly what is going to happen? Talking about sports is so interesting (to me at least) because there's plenty of gray area for different interpretations. We all have our opinions, our beliefs about what is going right/wrong at any given point in time and what to do going forward, but none of us has THE correct answer. Even if there was an absolutely 100% proper way to do things...you can still fail with it. Luck. What bothers me is when any particular segment of fans are so set in their belief system that they actually start to look down upon and belittle those on the other side of things. "Oh if only you could see what I was saying, you'd know how right I was! You are just so naive, and it's a shame you aren't as enlightened as I am to see how my way is the only way." That kind of attitude is BS for a number of reasons as it demeans other people, but perhaps most importantly, it's simply wrong. Sports is not a simple A+B=C equation....there are multiple ways to solve for C. Talking about how to solve for C is enjoyable. Constantly hearing that solving for C is impossible or there is only one possible solution, however, is not enjoyable....and too often I feel those who fall on the extreme ends of Sabres opinion fall into this model of conversation.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Maybe that's a natural progression then. I can't say I wouldn't feel the same way if I had been following the team for as long as some here have.

 

I understand your point of view. And the point of view of other vocal dissenters here.

 

What I don't understand is this seemingly inconsiderate desire to force discontent on others. To attempt to break apart the optimist attitudes of many who post here. You clearly see the team in a different light than a lot of us do, and it clearly affects the way you feel about them in every facet of what's left of your fanhood. You want so much to believe you know what is right for the team, and for us to believe you know what is right for the team, that you forget that none of us really have any idea. Is the long tenure of Ruff and Regier a bad thing? No idea. Could this team challenge for the Cup next year? We don't know. Is Stafford actually a good hockey player? We don't know.

 

Uncertainty is part of the fun.

 

So many complain about how they are sick of "what if?" and "maybe next year", but isn't that the ESSENCE of sport? The uncertainty of success?

 

Attempting to prove certainty about things that are uncertain has made you crazy.

 

If I want uncertainty, I'd pull a slot machine.

 

You try and control the variables that effect uncertainty. Sure, I love the loose borders of sports. My jobs have consisted of financial markets, horse racing, and jazz player. All those things are uncertain.....but what makes them great is that you form opinions and use your skill to craft the best possible outcome you can by balancing risk/reward.....and controlling the variables that have negative outcomes on your performance.

 

I understand not everyone is wired that way, and there are a million ways to skin a cat, but when I look at this franchise and I post here.....I am trying to eliminate the poor outcomes by pinpointing those variables that lead to failure. I don't go to the casino and stand behind someone pulling the lever, saying, "You know....you only get 92 cents of every dollar back that you put into that thing." I understand that by me being vocal about my opinions, if I make good points and people respect them......it may take some fun out of it. But you CAN change the outcome. Fans do have a say.....with their voices and wallets.

 

I view myself as a problem solver. I think many of the people labled negative are only trying to fix a faulty product. If you were playing XBox on an old TV that faded in and out, and I kept trying to tell you a better TV was available and the fix would be worth the price.....would you yell, "Can't you see video games should be fun! i'm playing here. Why are you trying to ruin my fun?!"

 

We all can limit uncertainty and make many decisions every day that effect the outcomes we see. If I don't like a company, I don't buy the stock or short it. If i don't think a horse can win, I don't bet on it or try to take interest in it. If I want to spice up a song, I can play any note I would like while still trying to keep it pleasing yet creative. I am...however...stuck with being a fan of only 1 hockey team.....and the only control I have is to not spend money, and make others aware of what should now be obvious shortcomings.

[nfreeman]

...

 

Lastly, the dirty little secret about sports (and to an extent, life) that most people don't like admitting, is that luck matters. And more than just a little. Would Mitt Romney be worth a few hundred million if he was born into an average family? Would George W. Bush have been president if he was born into another family? Would Andrew Cuomo be governor of New York if his last name wasn't Cuomo? Would Aaron Rodgers have turned into a dominant QB if he was drafted by the dreadful 49ers? Would the 05-07 Sabres have been so successful if the refs didn't enforce the rule changes following the lockout? Would the Bills ever have gone to the Super Bowl even once if the USFL didn't fold? Would the San Antonio Spurs have won ANY championships if David Robinson didn't miss the season that Tim Duncan was coming out, allowing them to win the lottery and draft the greatest power forward ever? Would the Capitals REALLY be behind Florida in the division if Backstrom didn't miss 2 months with a concussion?

...

 

Much of what you say here is true, but I think GoDD's underlying premise kinda trumps it -- i.e. to have a high-quality franchise, where the team is a contender pretty much every year (like the Steelers, Lakers, Red Wings, etc.), you need to have high-quality senior management. You might luck into a great playoff run or a great couple of players every now and then, but to have sustained excellence, you need the best people running things.

 

Now, I'm not sure whether the Sabres have what they need at the top. GoDD and many others clearly have decided that the Sabres don't have that caliber of person running things, and as a result the Sabres are doomed to wallow in mediocrity until they make changes at the top. They may or may not be right about that, but I think GoDD is right that you can't have the kind of franchise we all want without top-quality senior management.

[lost in dc]

i'm in. let's go buf-a-lo.

[darksabre]

If I want uncertainty, I'd pull a slot machine.

 

You try and control the variables that effect uncertainty. Sure, I love the loose borders of sports. My jobs have consisted of financial markets, horse racing, and jazz player. All those things are uncertain.....but what makes them great is that you form opinions and use your skill to craft the best possible outcome you can by balancing risk/reward.....and controlling the variables that have negative outcomes on your performance.

 

I understand not everyone is wired that way, and there are a million ways to skin a cat, but when I look at this franchise and I post here.....I am trying to eliminate the poor outcomes by pinpointing those variables that lead to failure. I don't go to the casino and stand behind someone pulling the lever, saying, "You know....you only get 92 cents of every dollar back that you put into that thing." I understand that by me being vocal about my opinions, if I make good points and people respect them......it may take some fun out of it. But you CAN change the outcome. Fans do have a say.....with their voices and wallets.

 

I view myself as a problem solver. I think many of the people labled negative are only trying to fix a faulty product. If you were playing XBox on an old TV that faded in and out, and I kept trying to tell you a better TV was available and the fix would be worth the price.....would you yell, "Can't you see video games should be fun! i'm playing here. Why are you trying to ruin my fun?!"

 

We all can limit uncertainty and make many decisions every day that effect the outcomes we see. If I don't like a company, I don't buy the stock or short it. If i don't think a horse can win, I don't bet on it or try to take interest in it. If I want to spice up a song, I can play any note I would like while still trying to keep it pleasing yet creative. I am...however...stuck with being a fan of only 1 hockey team.....and the only control I have is to not spend money, and make others aware of what should now be obvious shortcomings.

 

But the short comings aren't obvious. They are just your opinion. You can't look at the Sabres like a TV and say "I know this is what is wrong", especially if you don't fix tv's. You can't treat Darcy like bad resistor. It's not as easy as you're trying to make it sound.

 

You have the power to not spend money, but you don't have the power to make others aware of things you think are "obvious". You have no control. People will develop their own opinions just as you have, but to believe you posses "obvious" knowledge that others don't have but need is crazy talk.

 

You aren't a fountain of eye-opening thought. You aren't the leader of a destitute people. You're just a sports fan on an internet forum with some opinions that you happen to think everyone else should share, and you have zero control over how much influence you have.

[TrueBlueGED]

Much of what you say here is true, but I think GoDD's underlying premise kinda trumps it -- i.e. to have a high-quality franchise, where the team is a contender pretty much every year (like the Steelers, Lakers, Red Wings, etc.), you need to have high-quality senior management. You might luck into a great playoff run or a great couple of players every now and then, but to have sustained excellence, you need the best people running things.

 

Now, I'm not sure whether the Sabres have what they need at the top. GoDD and many others clearly have decided that the Sabres don't have that caliber of person running things, and as a result the Sabres are doomed to wallow in mediocrity until they make changes at the top. They may or may not be right about that, but I think GoDD is right that you can't have the kind of franchise we all want without top-quality senior management.

 

And I wouldn't disagree with that. The problem I have is that those firmly on the negative side of things refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Regier/Ruff aren't as inept as they think, and the ownership really does matter. Personally I think success starts with good ownership, and goes from there. Maybe Regier really is incapable of building a winner, but to say his actions with Pegula are identical to what he did under Golisano/Quinn, is just ignoring the facts just to stand by your existing predisposition. I refuse to ignore Regier's past, but at the same time I recognize he was restricted in his actions, and his actions since the ownership change have been superior to what he did previously. This is of course an opinion. But I refuse to use the Bucky Gleason logic of "well Regier did it, so it's wrong". Regier's past should of course play a role in his evaluation, but I get the impression that those who want to blow it all up, use his past as the only thing that matters when evaluating recent moves and potential future moves.

 

If I want uncertainty, I'd pull a slot machine.

 

You try and control the variables that effect uncertainty. Sure, I love the loose borders of sports. My jobs have consisted of financial markets, horse racing, and jazz player. All those things are uncertain.....but what makes them great is that you form opinions and use your skill to craft the best possible outcome you can by balancing risk/reward.....and controlling the variables that have negative outcomes on your performance.

 

I understand not everyone is wired that way, and there are a million ways to skin a cat, but when I look at this franchise and I post here.....I am trying to eliminate the poor outcomes by pinpointing those variables that lead to failure. I don't go to the casino and stand behind someone pulling the lever, saying, "You know....you only get 92 cents of every dollar back that you put into that thing." I understand that by me being vocal about my opinions, if I make good points and people respect them......it may take some fun out of it. But you CAN change the outcome. Fans do have a say.....with their voices and wallets.

 

I view myself as a problem solver. I think many of the people labled negative are only trying to fix a faulty product. If you were playing XBox on an old TV that faded in and out, and I kept trying to tell you a better TV was available and the fix would be worth the price.....would you yell, "Can't you see video games should be fun! i'm playing here. Why are you trying to ruin my fun?!"

 

We all can limit uncertainty and make many decisions every day that effect the outcomes we see. If I don't like a company, I don't buy the stock or short it. If i don't think a horse can win, I don't bet on it or try to take interest in it. If I want to spice up a song, I can play any note I would like while still trying to keep it pleasing yet creative. I am...however...stuck with being a fan of only 1 hockey team.....and the only control I have is to not spend money, and make others aware of what should now be obvious shortcomings.

 

The problem is, posting on an internet message board accomplishes none of those things. It's why I laugh (literally) every time DeLuca posts that he's fighting fan apathy. No, you're not, and no, he isn't. And neither is anybody else who does nothing but post opinions on a message board. Want to make people aware of the "real problems' or incite some real change in the organization? Then do something meaningful about it. Organize collections for a billboard to fire Ruff like certain Bills fans did for Jauron. Organize protests outside the arena for a home game. Be the guy who solves the collective action problem of the alleged fan apathy. Although we rarely agree I enjoy the discussion and respect a lot of the points you (and others who agree with you) make, and I don't want the group of you to ride off into the sunset (group-think would be SO boring!). But don't sit there and pretend posting on a Sabres fan forum is solving, fixing, or correcting anything other than your need/desire to voice your opinion.

[shrader]

The problem is, posting on an internet message board accomplishes none of those things. It's why I laugh (literally) every time DeLuca posts that he's fighting fan apathy. No, you're not, and no, he isn't. And neither is anybody else who does nothing but post opinions on a message board. Want to make people aware of the "real problems' or incite some real change in the organization? Then do something meaningful about it. Organize collections for a billboard to fire Ruff like certain Bills fans did for Jauron. Organize protests outside the arena for a home game. Be the guy who solves the collective action problem of the alleged fan apathy. Although we rarely agree I enjoy the discussion and respect a lot of the points you (and others who agree with you) make, and I don't want the group of you to ride off into the sunset (group-think would be SO boring!). But don't sit there and pretend posting on a Sabres fan forum is solving, fixing, or correcting anything other than your need/desire to voice your opinion.

 

Can we have this attached as a disclaimer to every single post made on this board?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

And I wouldn't disagree with that. The problem I have is that those firmly on the negative side of things refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Regier/Ruff aren't as inept as they think, and the ownership really does matter. Personally I think success starts with good ownership, and goes from there. Maybe Regier really is incapable of building a winner, but to say his actions with Pegula are identical to what he did under Golisano/Quinn, is just ignoring the facts just to stand by your existing predisposition. I refuse to ignore Regier's past, but at the same time I recognize he was restricted in his actions, and his actions since the ownership change have been superior to what he did previously. This is of course an opinion. But I refuse to use the Bucky Gleason logic of "well Regier did it, so it's wrong". Regier's past should of course play a role in his evaluation, but I get the impression that those who want to blow it all up, use his past as the only thing that matters when evaluating recent moves and potential future moves.

 

 

 

The problem is, posting on an internet message board accomplishes none of those things. It's why I laugh (literally) every time DeLuca posts that he's fighting fan apathy. No, you're not, and no, he isn't. And neither is anybody else who does nothing but post opinions on a message board. Want to make people aware of the "real problems' or incite some real change in the organization? Then do something meaningful about it. Organize collections for a billboard to fire Ruff like certain Bills fans did for Jauron. Organize protests outside the arena for a home game. Be the guy who solves the collective action problem of the alleged fan apathy. Although we rarely agree I enjoy the discussion and respect a lot of the points you (and others who agree with you) make, and I don't want the group of you to ride off into the sunset (group-think would be SO boring!). But don't sit there and pretend posting on a Sabres fan forum is solving, fixing, or correcting anything other than your need/desire to voice your opinion.

 

I guess the fact that Ted Black visits here or the Pegula girls.....or the guys at the News and GR...doesn't matter?

 

The fact that in toronto, be it vaild or not, the GM said the fans chanting for a coaching change helped bring it about?

 

If fans are happy with mediocrity and exciting 20 game runs to get to the point of being average.....and keep forking over their cash, well then , it doesn't matter.

 

I think unless some major changes are made next year, there will be no "bad guy" to blame things on. No "Negativity Bubble" as Ted Black likes to put it. The lifeboats will be gone, and the survivors can cling to each other for floatation and warmth.

[LTS]

 

Part of what's fun about being a sports fan is the "what ifs" and discussions involving them. Would sports really be fun if you could toss everything into a spreadsheet and have a computer tell you exactly what is going to happen? Talking about sports is so interesting (to me at least) because there's plenty of gray area for different interpretations. We all have our opinions, our beliefs about what is going right/wrong at any given point in time and what to do going forward, but none of us has THE correct answer. Even if there was an absolutely 100% proper way to do things...you can still fail with it. Luck. What bothers me is when any particular segment of fans are so set in their belief system that they actually start to look down upon and belittle those on the other side of things. "Oh if only you could see what I was saying, you'd know how right I was! You are just so naive, and it's a shame you aren't as enlightened as I am to see how my way is the only way." That kind of attitude is BS for a number of reasons as it demeans other people, but perhaps most importantly, it's simply wrong. Sports is not a simple A+B=C equation....there are multiple ways to solve for C. Talking about how to solve for C is enjoyable. Constantly hearing that solving for C is impossible or there is only one possible solution, however, is not enjoyable....and too often I feel those who fall on the extreme ends of Sabres opinion fall into this model of conversation.

 

The last part is what I was getting at as well. If you think that if A is in the equation then C is unattainable there's no need to jump in on the conversation of those who believe A is a part of it. Luck is a HUGE part of the equation as well.

 

If I want uncertainty, I'd pull a slot machine.

 

You try and control the variables that effect uncertainty. Sure, I love the loose borders of sports. My jobs have consisted of financial markets, horse racing, and jazz player. All those things are uncertain.....but what makes them great is that you form opinions and use your skill to craft the best possible outcome you can by balancing risk/reward.....and controlling the variables that have negative outcomes on your performance.

 

I understand not everyone is wired that way, and there are a million ways to skin a cat, but when I look at this franchise and I post here.....I am trying to eliminate the poor outcomes by pinpointing those variables that lead to failure. I don't go to the casino and stand behind someone pulling the lever, saying, "You know....you only get 92 cents of every dollar back that you put into that thing." I understand that by me being vocal about my opinions, if I make good points and people respect them......it may take some fun out of it. But you CAN change the outcome. Fans do have a say.....with their voices and wallets.

 

I view myself as a problem solver. I think many of the people labled negative are only trying to fix a faulty product. If you were playing XBox on an old TV that faded in and out, and I kept trying to tell you a better TV was available and the fix would be worth the price.....would you yell, "Can't you see video games should be fun! i'm playing here. Why are you trying to ruin my fun?!"

 

We all can limit uncertainty and make many decisions every day that effect the outcomes we see. If I don't like a company, I don't buy the stock or short it. If i don't think a horse can win, I don't bet on it or try to take interest in it. If I want to spice up a song, I can play any note I would like while still trying to keep it pleasing yet creative. I am...however...stuck with being a fan of only 1 hockey team.....and the only control I have is to not spend money, and make others aware of what should now be obvious shortcomings.

 

Fans vote with their wallets and voices but a single voice, hell even three voices or eight are nothing compared to a million or more who don't think like you and aren't listening to you. You can do that, but in your variables you have to account for new management too. You can't choose to ignore a variable unless you can justify why it's irrelevant to the conversation. You have a limited sample size to make that judgment as well this further impairs your outcomes. Finally, during the season there are a lot of variables to take into account that alters your base level prediction for the season. It's nice to try and model but there are just so many variables that it's difficult to identify all of them or their correlation.

 

BTW: It should be obvious to most people that the current operational model of the US Government is failing but each year we keep voting for Democrats/Republicans expecting something to change. There are many shortcomings in the political system and yet we keep it going year after year thinking that this year will be the big change. My point is that what you perceive as obvious isn't always so obvious. LIke I've mentioned.. you choose to ignore a new owner and his impact on the operations of the Sabres. You believe that he alone is not enough to allow Regier and Ruff to succeed. You might be right... my point has always been that 1 year is not enough to go on. It's a sample size of 1. You always claim a size of 15 but if the correlation between Pegula and Regier's ability is high then the previous 14 years where Pegula was not a variable will become highly irrelevant to the final analysis. For example, Company A has a management team that has constantly been under the direction to break even in the market even if it means short changing long term success. After years of this the board changes and accepts a new CEO who sells a long term vision and new goals. The rest of the management team doesn't change and in year 1, while the company has spent a few more millions and perhaps lost a little money they are no better off. Still, there are some signs that the company has a new foundation from which to build. Do you label the management team as failures or do you go along for the ride and accept that it might be the change in leadership that allows the company to finally flourish?

 

And I wouldn't disagree with that. The problem I have is that those firmly on the negative side of things refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Regier/Ruff aren't as inept as they think, and the ownership really does matter. Personally I think success starts with good ownership, and goes from there. Maybe Regier really is incapable of building a winner, but to say his actions with Pegula are identical to what he did under Golisano/Quinn, is just ignoring the facts just to stand by your existing predisposition. I refuse to ignore Regier's past, but at the same time I recognize he was restricted in his actions, and his actions since the ownership change have been superior to what he did previously. This is of course an opinion. But I refuse to use the Bucky Gleason logic of "well Regier did it, so it's wrong". Regier's past should of course play a role in his evaluation, but I get the impression that those who want to blow it all up, use his past as the only thing that matters when evaluating recent moves and potential future moves.

 

 

The problem is, posting on an internet message board accomplishes none of those things. It's why I laugh (literally) every time DeLuca posts that he's fighting fan apathy. No, you're not, and no, he isn't. And neither is anybody else who does nothing but post opinions on a message board. Want to make people aware of the "real problems' or incite some real change in the organization? Then do something meaningful about it. Organize collections for a billboard to fire Ruff like certain Bills fans did for Jauron. Organize protests outside the arena for a home game. Be the guy who solves the collective action problem of the alleged fan apathy. Although we rarely agree I enjoy the discussion and respect a lot of the points you (and others who agree with you) make, and I don't want the group of you to ride off into the sunset (group-think would be SO boring!). But don't sit there and pretend posting on a Sabres fan forum is solving, fixing, or correcting anything other than your need/desire to voice your opinion.

 

Exactly.