Kassian to Vancouver for Hodgson

[spndnchz]

Kassian: 9 games 5 goals

 

Foligno, Ennis, Stafford, Hecht, Ott, Grigorenko, Kaleta, Gerbe, Scott, McCormick, Ellis 82 games....5 goals

 

Vancouver: Leading their division

 

Buffalo: Last in their division

 

20% of the way through the season.......

 

You can have the prettiest face, and hottest rack in the sorrority......but if you have a heart defect, you end up dead. We traded away our mitral valve for a tummy tuck and botox........

 

So you take away Buffalo's top 5 goal scorers and get 5 goals with the rest.

 

What happens when you do the same thing to Vancouver? 4 goals.

 

You may have a point but it's not ^^this one^^

[TrueBlueGED]

 

 

Could you not have traded Stafford and Sekera?

 

Again....the fatal flaw of this team was made even worse with this trade. People gave up on Kassiapn after a few dozen games. They wanted to dismiss the Ruff factor and seem to believe the need for another monotone, skilled, slight of build fella was what this team needed. Hodgson looks good this year. But it's like bartering in the Wild West.......you were low on water to begin with, and you just traded away the rest of your water for a new cover to your wagon. Great.....now it will take you 10 days instead of 5 to dehydrate to death because the cover will protect you from the sun. A smart person would see that you needed more water...and hence who cares how hot it gets....you will always survive.

 

Darcy's driving the covered wagon of skeletons.......

 

Given what the Canucks reportedly wanted for Hodgson (not to mention salary cap issues), no, I don't think Stafford and Sekera gets it done. Gotta remember, the reports were that Kassian was one of only a handful of players the Canucks were willing to give up Hodgson for.

[Claude_Verret]

Given what the Canucks reportedly wanted for Hodgson (not to mention salary cap issues), no, I don't think Stafford and Sekera gets it done. Gotta remember, the reports were that Kassian was one of only a handful of players the Canucks were willing to give up Hodgson for.

 

Another one being Brandon Sutter from the Canes, and he ended up as part of a package that landed the almighty Jordan Staal.

[Robviously]

Whether they explicitly say it or not (they won't), I think it's pretty clear the rebuild has begun. They're trying to do it gradually rather than with a stick of dynamite, but looking at the roster its pretty clear to me that it's happening. Stay competitive enough to compete for a playoff spot while turning the roster over to younger players and let those players get experience with vets around so we don't ice a bottom-3 roster of 22 year olds. Maybe a fire sale and tanking would be better (good argument for this IMO), but I see a rebuild already underway.

If this were true, they'd have traded Leopold or Regehr before this season began, or last Summer, or even at last year's deadline. And we would have traded Roy for someone younger.

 

"Half rebuilding" is not rebuilding. Darcy knows he'll look bad if the team bottoms out and drafts in the top 5 again, so he's not going to let that happen. And to his credit, that's worked out really well for him. He got another contract extension a few weeks ago for no apparent reason (his current deal wasn't even winding down).

 

A successful rebuild isn't going to happen while we're desperately trying to sneak into the playoffs. Regier is absolutely the wrong person to be in charge now and he honestly should have been removed right after Pegula took over.

[SDS]

Then there's this--- I agreed with weave when he posited that this trade was largely a consequence of Black Sunday.

 

Maybe if this was 2009, but in 2012 I disagree...

 

Drury is out of the game and had maybe one decent year after 2007? Briere was never the top center on the Flyers from Day 1. He's a different animal over there and does not and has not carried #1 center duties. So, the point being even if we signed both of those guys - one would be gone and one would long ago would have been identified as no longer having #1 center ability.

[TrueBlueGED]

 

 

Maybe if this was 2009, but in 2012 I disagree...

 

Drury is out of the game and had maybe one decent year after 2007? Briere was never the top center on the Flyers from Day 1. He's a different animal over there and does not and has not carried #1 center duties. So, the point being even if we signed both of those guys - one would be gone and one would long ago would have been identified as no longer having #1 center ability.

 

I don't believe the point was about losing them, but rather, the failure to replace them in subsequent years.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

3 games? Wha'Happened?

 

Sorry....I guess I'm bad at counting.....sort of like Lindy in the last 10 seconds of a game in the nation's capital...... :P

[TrueBlueGED]

 

 

Sorry....I guess I'm bad at counting.....sort of like Lindy in the last 10 seconds of a game in the nation's capital...... :P

 

One word: strategery.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Given what the Canucks reportedly wanted for Hodgson (not to mention salary cap issues), no, I don't think Stafford and Sekera gets it done. Gotta remember, the reports were that Kassian was one of only a handful of players the Canucks were willing to give up Hodgson for.

 

And the reason I am so quick to point out Kassian's success is 2-fold.

 

The majority here were happy with the trade at the time....many dismissed Kassian as a failure....and many dismissed the idea that Ruff was the problem as to why someone like Kassian couldn't play his game here. As much as I like Foligno, many here also felt he was better than Kassian and made him expendable.

 

You had the anti-venom in your hand.....the one thing that has been missing for pretty much decades.....and you let it go. If Cody Hodgson and Zack Kassian both reach their ceilings.....I can name you 100 guys over the past 30 years that are as good as Hodgson.....I can name you maybe 5-10 as good as Kassian. THAT....is the problem with what happened, and why those who don't trust the GM and Coach to evaluate and nurture his skillset properly, will point this out as the Sabres seem to continue to float in their own cespool.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Ghost of Dwight Drane

[Punch]

 

 

Maybe if this was 2009, but in 2012 I disagree...

 

Drury is out of the game and had maybe one decent year after 2007? Briere was never the top center on the Flyers from Day 1. He's a different animal over there and does not and has not carried #1 center duties. So, the point being even if we signed both of those guys - one would be gone and one would long ago would have been identified as no longer having #1 center ability.

 

 

I don't believe the point was about losing them, but rather, the failure to replace them in subsequent years.

 

This.

 

The center position was not addressed until the past 16 or so months: the Leino experiment, Ennis being moved back to his "natural" position, the Hodgson trade and the Grigorenko/Gigensens draft picks (arguably also Ott, to a lesser extent). The Kassian-Hodgson trade was arguably forced because of that egregious oversight, which only began July 1, 2007.

[dudacek]

The real question is will Kass continue this pace and wind up with 25 goals this year?

Or will he end up closer to 12?

[Punch]

 

 

And the reason I am so quick to point out Kassian's success is 2-fold.

 

The majority here were happy with the trade at the time....many dismissed Kassian as a failure....and many dismissed the idea that Ruff was the problem as to why someone like Kassian couldn't play his game here. As much as I like Foligno, many here also felt he was better than Kassian and made him expendable.

 

You had the anti-venom in your hand.....the one thing that has been missing for pretty much decades.....and you let it go. If Cody Hodgson and Zack Kassian both reach their ceilings.....I can name you 100 guys over the past 30 years that are as good as Hodgson.....I can name you maybe 5-10 as good as Kassian. THAT....is the problem with what happened, and why those who don't trust the GM and Coach to evaluate and nurture his skillset properly, will point this out as the Sabres seem to continue to float in their own cespool.

 

I understand where you're coming from and I am 100% on board with your preferred vision of what this franchise's identity should be, but this assessment of Kassian is still very much in the "Concept of Kassian" and not so much the reality.

 

In the Vancouver games I've watched this season, he is very much a perimeter skill player, mainly using his size in puck possession and not actually laying people out left and right. His confidence has grown playing with the Sedins and being given more ice time, which has helped his brain make the connection between puck possession and play making--- something he lacked during his time here (which is not at all surprising for a rookie).

 

Hodgson regularly drives hard to the net and spends an awful lot of time in the "dirty areas" when called for. A case can be made that Kassian plays a "soft" game and it is Hodgson that plays "hard". I realize that will sound crazy to some, but to my mind, it is very much a matter of perception rather than what is being realized on the ice.

 

I wish Kassian were still here and the player we had Conceptualized, but for now anyway, he is a more talented and fully idealized version of Drew Stafford, not a young Todd Bertuzzi and certainly no Cam Neely.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Punch

[Robviously]

The real question is will Kass continue this pace and wind up with 25 goals this year?

Or will he end up closer to 12?

You could ask the same questions about Hodgson. And we probabaly will be. Hodgson and Kassian are going to be compared to one another for the rest of their careers as a result of this trade. Hoepfully it's a "race to the top" type of competition.

[TrueBlueGED]

 

 

And the reason I am so quick to point out Kassian's success is 2-fold.

 

The majority here were happy with the trade at the time....many dismissed Kassian as a failure....and many dismissed the idea that Ruff was the problem as to why someone like Kassian couldn't play his game here. As much as I like Foligno, many here also felt he was better than Kassian and made him expendable.

 

You had the anti-venom in your hand.....the one thing that has been missing for pretty much decades.....and you let it go. If Cody Hodgson and Zack Kassian both reach their ceilings.....I can name you 100 guys over the past 30 years that are as good as Hodgson.....I can name you maybe 5-10 as good as Kassian. THAT....is the problem with what happened, and why those who don't trust the GM and Coach to evaluate and nurture his skillset properly, will point this out as the Sabres seem to continue to float in their own cespool.

 

On the side, if there has only been 5-10 Kassians ever, they must not be particularly integral to winning a championship.

 

 

You could ask the same questions about Hodgson. And we probabaly will be. Hodgson and Kassian are going to be compared to one another for the rest of their careers as a result of this trade. Hoepfully it's a "race to the top" type of competition.

 

My answer for both players is an unequivocal no. Doesn't mean they totally tank, but they're both on unsustainable paces. Which is why it's even more important the Sabres start getting some secondary scoring.

 

Edit: for clarity, I'm not saying it's impossible he production continues (shooting percentage rates will surely decline though), just that it's bloody unlikely.

Edited February 4, 2013 by TrueBluePhD

[Robviously]

My answer for both players is an unequivocal no. Doesn't mean they totally tank, but they're both on unsustainable paces. Which is why it's even more important the Sabres start getting some secondary scoring.

I think both guys could be point/game players, or at least 70 points/82 games. Not sure how much more than that they could be, but these hot starts aren't dramatically better than what I think their potential is (at least in terms of points per game).

[TrueBlueGED]

 

I think both guys could be point/game players, or at least 70 points/82 games. Not sure how much more than that they could be, but these hot starts aren't dramatically better than what I think their potential is (at least in terms of points per game).

 

I'd agree with those projections. Not sure they're there in their second pro seasons though. Plus looking at their percentages, their volume will have to go up significantly to maintain the production levels, and I'm not sure I can make a strong case that happens, particularly in a condensed year with tired legs.

[apuszczalowski]

Kassian: 9 games 5 goals

 

Foligno, Ennis, Stafford, Hecht, Ott, Grigorenko, Kaleta, Gerbe, Scott, McCormick, Ellis 82 games....5 goals

 

Vancouver: Leading their division

 

Buffalo: Last in their division

 

20% of the way through the season.......

 

You can have the prettiest face, and hottest rack in the sorrority......but if you have a heart defect, you end up dead. We traded away our mitral valve for a tummy tuck and botox........

C'mon, you can cherry pick 11 forwrads off of any other team in the league to make 5 goals to compare them to Kassian also, right?

 

Most likely. It really comes down to Roy and Kassian or Hodgson and Ott. Foligno was going to be here either way, and I have no idea why Drane listed all those other players, other than to make the loss of Kassian look more dramatic (seriously, who the F expects Ellis, McCormick, or Scott to produce any discernible offense?)

Probably about 70-80% of the people here

 

We're still suffering from Black Sunday because we never addressed it with a full rebuild. It's been nothing but band-aids ever since. We create new problems by addressing the current ones.

 

All of Regier's half-measures have resulted in a team that is never contending and never rebuilding. Are we trying to get younger? Are we trying to win now? Are we trying to just win enough that you can't justify firing anyone?

 

I've said it before, you can't rebuild with the same GM you've had since 1997 because that would require him to admit that he failed and that it's time to start over. So we never have a plan. We're just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with a little bit of roster turnover every year.

While I agree that the team has suffered since Quinn made those horrible moves to let Drury and Briere leave, I disagree about the full rebuild part. They pretty much replaced the guys they lost with young players in their system, which is what usually happens when teams rebuild. Had they went out and tried to fill those spots with veteran FAs, then I would say its not a rebuild. I would say teh issue with this team is that whomever is the scape goat GM has been in permanent rebuild mode that when they let a veteran player go, they just replace inhouse, and up until probably Regher, Ehrhoff and Ott, they very rarely traded for veterans that were more then a rental at the deadline, most of the players they pickup were guys they hoped were diamonds in the rough that have yet to develop

[SwampD]

Maybe if this was 2009, but in 2012 I disagree...

 

Drury is out of the game and had maybe one decent year after 2007? Briere was never the top center on the Flyers from Day 1. He's a different animal over there and does not and has not carried #1 center duties. So, the point being even if we signed both of those guys - one would be gone and one would long ago would have been identified as no longer having #1 center ability.

The problem wasn't that those two guys left, it's that we got nothing in return for them. We didn't trade them and get picks or players for them. DR simply let them walk.

 

He did the same with Hasek (although, Dom kinda forced his hand there) and it took years to recover from that. My problem with Darcy isn't that he let valuable assets leave the team (I honestly didn't care about DB and CD leaving), it's that he got nothing for them. That was a huge mistake that we are still recovering from.

[Eleven]

The problem wasn't that those two guys left, it's that we got nothing in return for them. We didn't trade them and get picks or players for them. DR simply let them walk.

 

He did the same with Hasek (although, Dom kinda forced his hand there) and it took years to recover from that. My problem with Darcy isn't that he let valuable assets leave the team (I honestly didn't care about DB and CD leaving), it's that he got nothing for them. That was a huge mistake that we are still recovering from.

 

Can't really blame him for the Hasek situation, like you imply. He definitely gets some blame on Drury and a ton on Briere, as far as I'm concerned. And he could have gotten a deal done with Michael Peca, too, if we want to get into ancient history.

[apuszczalowski]

Can't really blame him for the Hasek situation, like you imply. He definitely gets some blame on Drury and a ton on Briere, as far as I'm concerned. And he could have gotten a deal done with Michael Peca, too, if we want to get into ancient history.

You also can't say that Drury and Briere would have had the same careers since leaving Buffalo that they had if they stayed. Drury might still be playing, and maybe Briere would have worked as a #1 centre here. The Flyers have had plenty of other options that he wasn't needed in that role there, and drury is out because of injuries.

 

And as i was corrected before here, Black Sunday wasn't Regiers fault, that was Quinn and Golisano who take the blame.

[Eleven]

You also can't say that Drury and Briere would have had the same careers since leaving Buffalo that they had if they stayed. Drury might still be playing, and maybe Briere would have worked as a #1 centre here. The Flyers have had plenty of other options that he wasn't needed in that role there, and drury is out because of injuries.

 

And as i was corrected before here, Black Sunday wasn't Regiers fault, that was Quinn and Golisano who take the blame.

 

Most of it. I know that Regier did not fight to keep Briere despite the fact that Ruff wanted him to.

[SwampD]

Can't really blame him for the Hasek situation, like you imply. He definitely gets some blame on Drury and a ton on Briere, as far as I'm concerned. And he could have gotten a deal done with Michael Peca, too, if we want to get into ancient history.

Forgot about Peca. ugh.

[TrueBlueGED]

You also can't say that Drury and Briere would have had the same careers since leaving Buffalo that they had if they stayed. Drury might still be playing, and maybe Briere would have worked as a #1 centre here. The Flyers have had plenty of other options that he wasn't needed in that role there, and drury is out because of injuries.

 

And as i was corrected before here, Black Sunday wasn't Regiers fault, that was Quinn and Golisano who take the blame.

 

Drury was forced into retirement by a degenerative knee condition. He'd be done regardless of what team he was on.

[spndnchz]

Drury-Gomez, Suter-Parise?

[SwampD]

You also can't say that Drury and Briere would have had the same careers since leaving Buffalo that they had if they stayed. Drury might still be playing, and maybe Briere would have worked as a #1 centre here. The Flyers have had plenty of other options that he wasn't needed in that role there, and drury is out because of injuries.

 

And as i was corrected before here, Black Sunday wasn't Regiers fault, that was Quinn and Golisano who take the blame.

That's the thing, though. Their trade value was sky high. If you don't want them on the team or if you don't know if you do, you sign them anyway then trade them. The Rangers would have traded for CD. You don't just let them walk and get nothing.

 

Did we let Lydman and Tallinder walk, as well, or did we trade them? I don't remember.