Kassian to Vancouver for Hodgson

[TrueBlueGED]

IMO ..Ruff's record in Buffalo speaks for itself......His willingness to throw players under the bus and embarass them publically when they make mistakes is part of the historical record . His system has not and will not work with personnel on the roster (this fact has been true for the past five years)

 

We were talking about Kassian I believe. Not Ruff. He is prospering now partly because of the differences in system and most importantly coaching .. Cudos to the assistant coaches in Vancover too. IMO

 

He was never going to prosper in Buffalo regardless of the amount of time he was given to develop/mature in the AHL...

 

1) Humor me and explain the differences in the systems Ruff and Vigneault use.

2) Thanks Nostradamus. On that note, I fail to see how you can be upset about the trade....if he was never going to be successful here, then you should be doing backflips we traded a player doomed to failure.

[apuszczalowski]

IMO ..Ruff's record in Buffalo speaks for itself......His willingness to throw players under the bus and embarass them publically when they make mistakes is part of the historical record . His system has not and will not work with personnel on the roster (this fact has been true for the past five years)

 

We were talking about Kassian I believe. Not Ruff. He is prospering now partly because of the differences in system and most importantly coaching .. Cudos to the assistant coaches in Vancover too. IMO

 

He was never going to prosper in Buffalo regardless of the amount of time he was given to develop/mature in the AHL...

Yeah, because all of those players who never developped and were ruined by Ruff have gone on to long and propserous NHL careers...........

Aside for MacArthurs great start last season, and Kassians 5 games so far this season, who else has gone on to be better with a different coach on a different team?

[Eleven]

Yeah, because all of those players who never developped and were ruined by Ruff have gone on to long and propserous NHL careers...........

Aside for MacArthurs great start last season, and Kassians 5 games so far this season, who else has gone on to be better with a different coach on a different team?

 

exactly...

 

 

As for Kassian, I still wish him a good career.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Yeah, because all of those players who never developped and were ruined by Ruff have gone on to long and propserous NHL careers...........

Aside for MacArthurs great start last season, and Kassians 5 games so far this season, who else has gone on to be better with a different coach on a different team?

 

Pyatt...Torres...Bernier....Kassian....Foligno.....

 

If they are young enough when they leave to not be completely mind-f'd by the system....the guys do well. If they were vets when they came here....the guys do well. The ones that clunk are the young guys that come through the system and are here for a long time. The Kotaliks/Kalinins/Afinogenovs........the MacArthurs, Pailles, Pyatts, etc....guys with grit and jam potential....they have all had nice careers and play with more consistant gumption.

 

It's so freaking obvious and has been for years. Mike Weber has hit the demarcation line. Maybe someone can save him this year. Foligno's on deck to go.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Yeah, because all of those players who never developped and were ruined by Ruff have gone on to long and propserous NHL careers...........

Aside for MacArthurs great start last season, and Kassians 5 games so far this season, who else has gone on to be better with a different coach on a different team?

 

He must be doing OK still. The Leafs stripped an "A" off of someone (can't remember who) and gave it to him this year.

[LastPommerFan]

Pyatt...Torres...Bernier....Kassian....Foligno.....

 

If they are young enough when they leave to not be completely mind-f'd by the system....the guys do well. If they were vets when they came here....the guys do well. The ones that clunk are the young guys that come through the system and are here for a long time. The Kotaliks/Kalinins/Afinogenovs........the MacArthurs, Pailles, Pyatts, etc....guys with grit and jam potential....they have all had nice careers and play with more consistant gumption.

 

It's so freaking obvious and has been for years. Mike Weber has hit the demarcation line. Maybe someone can save him this year. Foligno's on deck to go.

 

There seems to be another correlation among the players in each group, but I can't put my палец on it.

[waldo]

1) Humor me and explain the differences in the systems Ruff and Vigneault use.

2) Thanks Nostradamus. On that note, I fail to see how you can be upset about the trade....if he was never going to be successful here, then you should be doing backflips we traded a player doomed to failure.

 

Yes, I am happy he got out and am hoping that Vanek, Pom , and Regehr are smart enough to escape too. Buffalo is in a rebuilding process, has been for five years. They just did not know it. There is no place here for mature players who wants a shot at the cup. It will take them five years and a prayer to see the second round. The tragedy is they could have gone out and added what they needed to make a run but they did not or could not. I am sad for Cody.

 

I thought we were having a civil discussion and a honest difference of opinion...

 

The most significant difference between the two teams... Vigneault knows talent and how to use it., he knows how to manage a game and motivate players .If lindy had the Sedins they would play on different lines.

 

Beyond that, only about 100 other differences in the way they play the game and more than a few similarities . The system you use should be based on the abilities of the personnel you have. If i was lindy i would be trapping three periods a night and clearing the offensive zone on the first touch rather than trying to make the outlet pass. Especially when Myers is in the game. One requirment in the system he plays is the ability of the defenders to make quick, clean and decisive passes on the post ups, curls, and stretches he uses for transition. point? speed of mind is a problem for a few Sabres d men . especially aginst an effective forecheck.

 

Now that i have said this the Sabres will go on a 6-0 run (it had to be done to save the team)

Edited January 28, 2013 by waldo

[apuszczalowski]

He must be doing OK still. The Leafs stripped an "A" off of someone (can't remember who) and gave it to him this year.

He has been doing ok for them, but hardly anything worth kicking and screaming over losing. I think he was given the A because they still think he can be the guy who started out last season hot, and he is one of the remaining veterans on the team now......

 

As for the others mentioned Bernier and Torres? Is Bernier still in the league? Torres name is only familiar because of the suspensions.

Pailles has been as inconsistent (when Healthy) for Boston as he was here, Pyatt has been bouncing around the league since leaving.

 

I don't know of anyone (MacArthur is the only really debatable one) that it can be said that they have flourished or reached their expected potential for a long period of time since leaving Buffalo.......

[SDS]

Pyatt...Torres...Bernier....Kassian....Foligno.....

 

that list really stretches credulity. Pyatt has the same numbers today as he did with the Sabres. An injured Torres was here for 18 games. Bernier played in 17. Kassian has had a nice 4 game stretch so far this season. Even if your point is true, this bit of evidence is weak sauce.

[TrueBlueGED]

 

 

Yes, I am happy he got out and am hoping that Vanek, Pom , and Regehr are smart enough to escape too. Buffalo is in a rebuilding process, has been for five years. They just did not know it. There is no place here for mature players who wants a shot at the cup. It will take them five years and a prayer to see the second round. The tragedy is they could have gone out and added what they needed to make a run but they did not or could not. I am sad for Cody.

 

I thought we were having a civil discussion and a honest difference of opinion... Please feel free to correct my spelling , doctor true blue.

 

The most significant difference... Vigneault knows talent and how to use it., he knows how to manage a game.. beyond that only about 100 other items. The system you use is based on the abilities of the personnel you have. If lindy had the Sedins they would play on different lines.

 

You could have simply said "I don't know what Ruff's or Vigneault's system is." I can't fathom how somebody can make a judgment that X player is succeeding because he went from Y system to Z system without having a clue what Y and Z are. And obviously Ruff would have the Sedins on separate lines because he always splits up our best players.... I mean, Vanek and Pominville never play together.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

that list really stretches credulity. Pyatt has the same numbers today as he did with the Sabres. An injured Torres was here for 18 games. Bernier played in 17. Kassian has had a nice 4 game stretch so far this season. Even if your point is true, this bit of evidence is weak sauce.

 

I'm sick of making the same point and doing the research every year this gets brought up, but Pyatt has flourished as a checking forward who has averaged 15 goals a year since leaving Buffalo. His only minus season was a -4 last year....he's now on the Rangers who fit him perfectly. 3 goals and 15 hits in 5 games.

 

Torres was "out of shape" according to Lindy. Had zero goals as a Sabre but averages 15 to 20 everywhere else. Torres said himself, "I'm too busy having to think out there instead of reacting" when asked about the Sabres system compared to what he was used to.

 

Paille hasn't exploded, but is a regular and has won a cup on a team that is LOADED at forward.

 

Again, name ONE FORWARD that was an original Sabre and has developed under Ruff, who can score 15-20 goals a year and actually take a physical game to their opponent?

 

You can't. But there have been plenty of young guys who left and blossomed in short order.

 

Does it really matter anymore? Here we are at game 5, and it looks obvious the "tone" set in game 1 was a token gesture. Now Foligno is peeling off checks left and right, Ott is making contrarian decisions out there for the sake of shaking it up, Stafford is back to being Stafford, and Gerbe and Kaleta are the only strong-willed enough guys to dig in, but they haven't mattered. This is year 2 of spending the largest cash outlay of any team in the NHL on salaries. There aren't anymore excuses.

 

Kassian got out at the perfect time. He only had a few games here. We traded a young Clark Gillies for a young Craig Janney if everything works out perfectly. If he stayed with Lindy though, he'd end up more Clark Griswald.

[SDS]

I'm sick of making the same point and doing the research every year this gets brought up, but Pyatt has flourished as a checking forward who has averaged 15 goals a year since leaving Buffalo. His only minus season was a -4 last year....he's now on the Rangers who fit him perfectly. 3 goals and 15 hits in 5 games.

 

Torres was "out of shape" according to Lindy. Had zero goals as a Sabre but averages 15 to 20 everywhere else. Torres said himself, "I'm too busy having to think out there instead of reacting" when asked about the Sabres system compared to what he was used to.

 

Paille hasn't exploded, but is a regular and has won a cup on a team that is LOADED at forward.

 

Again, name ONE FORWARD that was an original Sabre and has developed under Ruff, who can score 15-20 goals a year and actually take a physical game to their opponent?

 

You can't. But there have been plenty of young guys who left and blossomed in short order.

 

Does it really matter anymore? Here we are at game 5, and it looks obvious the "tone" set in game 1 was a token gesture. Now Foligno is peeling off checks left and right, Ott is making contrarian decisions out there for the sake of shaking it up, Stafford is back to being Stafford, and Gerbe and Kaleta are the only strong-willed enough guys to dig in, but they haven't mattered. This is year 2 of spending the largest cash outlay of any team in the NHL on salaries. There aren't anymore excuses.

 

Kassian got out at the perfect time. He only had a few games here. We traded a young Clark Gillies for a young Craig Janney if everything works out perfectly. If he stayed with Lindy though, he'd end up more Clark Griswald.

 

I didn't say your point was wrong, I said that particular bit of evidence is weak. I don't follow Pyatt, but his numbers look the same to me through out his career taking into account increasing maturity and the teams he played on. Torres/Berneir lasted here as long as a fart in a hurricane. They have played their entire lives, 3 months with Ruff isn't going to mean anything.

 

I would like to change the coach and GM simply because I don't find either of them entertaining anymore. I don't need any other reasons. It's the same stories about the same major players year after year. It's old and stale and has not been working. I don't need to grasp at Torres/Bernier to reach that conclusion.

[shrader]

Just out of curiosity, why are you running with this point of "original Sabres" and then citing guys a list that is 3/5 non-original Sabres?

[tom webster]

I'm sick of making the same point and doing the research every year this gets brought up, but Pyatt has flourished as a checking forward who has averaged 15 goals a year since leaving Buffalo. His only minus season was a -4 last year....he's now on the Rangers who fit him perfectly. 3 goals and 15 hits in 5 games.

 

Torres was "out of shape" according to Lindy. Had zero goals as a Sabre but averages 15 to 20 everywhere else. Torres said himself, "I'm too busy having to think out there instead of reacting" when asked about the Sabres system compared to what he was used to.

 

Paille hasn't exploded, but is a regular and has won a cup on a team that is LOADED at forward.

 

Again, name ONE FORWARD that was an original Sabre and has developed under Ruff, who can score 15-20 goals a year and actually take a physical game to their opponent?

 

You can't. But there have been plenty of young guys who left and blossomed in short order.

 

Does it really matter anymore? Here we are at game 5, and it looks obvious the "tone" set in game 1 was a token gesture. Now Foligno is peeling off checks left and right, Ott is making contrarian decisions out there for the sake of shaking it up, Stafford is back to being Stafford, and Gerbe and Kaleta are the only strong-willed enough guys to dig in, but they haven't mattered. This is year 2 of spending the largest cash outlay of any team in the NHL on salaries. There aren't anymore excuses.

 

Kassian got out at the perfect time. He only had a few games here. We traded a young Clark Gillies for a young Craig Janney if everything works out perfectly. If he stayed with Lindy though, he'd end up more Clark Griswald.

 

Pyatt had one year that was markedly better then any year he had in Buffalo. Paille is on a team with a better supporting class. Torres is a poster child for "most" teams deadline acqisitions. Who else you got?

 

That being said, this team was hard to watch yesterday. I have always been a proponent of firing Darcy and I am moving in the direction of the "time to move on from Ruff" as well.

[Grumpy]

Yes, I am happy he got out and am hoping that Vanek, Pom , and Regehr are smart enough to escape too. Buffalo is in a rebuilding process, has been for five years. They just did not know it. There is no place here for mature players who wants a shot at the cup. It will take them five years and a prayer to see the second round. The tragedy is they could have gone out and added what they needed to make a run but they did not or could not. I am sad for Cody.

 

I thought we were having a civil discussion and a honest difference of opinion...

 

The most significant difference between the two teams... Vigneault knows talent and how to use it., he knows how to manage a game .If lindy had the Sedins they would play on different lines.

 

Beyond that, only about 100 other differences in the way they play the game and more than a few similarities . The system you use should be based on the abilities of the personnel you have. If i was lindy i would be trapping three periods a night and clearing the offensive zone on the first touch rather than trying to make the outlet pass. Especially when Myers is in the game.

 

Now that i have said this the Sabres will go on a 6-0 run (it had to be done)

 

I don't want to get involved in the arguement, but the underlined part is just sooo true. And while other teams morphed to bigger and stronger to adapt to the return to imeping players, we lived in 2006-2007 dream world. Now Darcy is trying to play catch-up and they get guys like Scott to try to plug a huge hole created by mismanagemet.. That's what people saw in Kassian. I didn't need him to be a goon, I needed him to be Foligno, a big guy with some skill who could win down low and establish position in front of the net. I want more than one of this kind of player. Unfortunately, we needed a center desperately. And , as stated , you don't get quality for shite. We've changed the type of player we draft in the last couple of years, but you don't change the entire organization overnight.

[waldo]

You could have simply said "I don't know what Ruff's or Vigneault's system is." I can't fathom how somebody can make a judgment that X player is succeeding because he went from Y system to Z system without having a clue what Y and Z are. And obviously Ruff would have the Sedins on separate lines because he always splits up our best players.... I mean, Vanek and Pominville never play together.

 

I could send you pages

 

.KASSIAN will do well because he big, physical, has talent, is playing on a team that utilizes a more open ,physical, offensive scheme and he is paired with two of the best players in the game , He is no longer a lindy grinder. Most importantly..his coach knows talent and how to use it.... .This year Lindy would have been skating Kassian on the fourth line ( maybe the 3) of a defensive oriented team... he is an offensive player.. Watch the way he uses Grigs over the next few months

Edited January 28, 2013 by waldo

[SDS]

I could send you pages

 

.KASSIAN will do well because he big, physical, has talent, is playing on a team that utilizes a more open ,physical, offensive scheme and he is paired with two of the best players in the game , He is no longer a lindy grinder. Most importantly..his coach knows talent and how to use it.... .This year Lindy would have been skating Kassian on the fourth line at best ( maybe the 3) .. Watch the way he use Grigs over the next few months

 

Kassian is playing with them due to injury.

[waldo]

Kassian is playing with them due to injury.

 

and that matters???? because?

 

The point is he is learning, progressing, becoming more confident and he fits.. the coach had to fill out the line and he picked him for the job, not one of 26 other guys! will he stay.. who knows... i would think not , but he has elevated his chances and status. even with the -1..

 

 

he checks...he is a big body. .goes to the net... he is a perfect fit to a scoring line with finesse players on it....

 

who is the big body winger, physical presence , with some scoring skill on our # one line who can create space for Vanek , our two, or even three line guys that fill that bill ?( we have only Foligno that could potentially play that role ) ...did i miss anyone? probably....

Edited January 29, 2013 by waldo

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Just out of curiosity, why are you running with this point of "original Sabres" and then citing guys a list that is 3/5 non-original Sabres?

 

Lindy doesn't know how to use players who are in a power forward/jam-grit mold. Which is crazy considering he played that style. Maybe he is self-loathing? I don't know.

 

Pyatt was a baby when he came over. And anyone that says his stats are similar to his Buffalo days are crazy. God knows we can't use a big bodied 15-20 goal scorer who would have led the Sabres in hits the past 4 years total. That's OK, the Rangers have him now.

 

Vancouver picked up all of those guys though....that's why they were listed. I've made the point before....you find a weakness in someone and go back to the well. Vancouver has taken in all those guys....heck, they even took a flyer on Mancari!

 

Let's see....

 

Bernier and Zubrus won a cup last year while playing every playoff game, and being #3 and #1 in hits on the team

Pyatt and Torres went to the conference finals on a bankrupt team.

Paille won a cup

MacArthur is the only one who hasn't seen team success yet.

 

I have no idea if Kassian can be great, but he got out early enough to still have it in him.

[Lanny]

 

 

He must be doing OK still. The Leafs stripped an "A" off of someone (can't remember who) and gave it to him this year.

Grabovski?

[tom webster]

Lindy doesn't know how to use players who are in a power forward/jam-grit mold. Which is crazy considering he played that style. Maybe he is self-loathing? I don't know.

 

Pyatt was a baby when he came over. And anyone that says his stats are similar to his Buffalo days are crazy. God knows we can't use a big bodied 15-20 goal scorer who would have led the Sabres in hits the past 4 years total. That's OK, the Rangers have him now.

 

Vancouver picked up all of those guys though....that's why they were listed. I've made the point before....you find a weakness in someone and go back to the well. Vancouver has taken in all those guys....heck, they even took a flyer on Mancari!

 

Let's see....

 

Bernier and Zubrus won a cup last year while playing every playoff game, and being #3 and #1 in hits on the team

Pyatt and Torres went to the conference finals on a bankrupt team.

Paille won a cup

MacArthur is the only one who hasn't seen team success yet.

 

I have no idea if Kassian can be great, but he got out early enough to still have it in him.

 

 

So last year. Pyatt scores 9 goals and records 137 hits while Drew Stafford scored 20 goals with 102 hits so Pyatt has developed into this feared, aggressive checker who can score but Staffor dis a bum and Lindy can't develop anyone?

One hit every two games. Amazing.

I know, its the eye test now. Only an idiot would think it has something to do with growing into it. Any fool can see that Pyatt is just plain better, has more heart blah blah blah.

[Grumpy]

 

 

 

So last year. Pyatt scores 9 goals and records 137 hits while Drew Stafford scored 20 goals with 102 hits so Pyatt has developed into this feared, aggressive checker who can score but Staffor dis a bum and Lindy can't develop anyone?

One hit every two games. Amazing.

I know, its the eye test now. Only an idiot would think it has something to do with growing into it. Any fool can see that Pyatt is just plain better, has more heart blah blah blah.

 

Pyatt a 3rd line player, Stafford a second. Pyatt 1.5M Stafford 4M. Blah, blah,blah.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Grumpy

[tom webster]

Pyatt a 3rd line player, Stafford a second. Pyatt 1.5M Stafford 4M. Blah, blah,blah.

 

So then its not that Pyatt is a more aggressive player now that he's out of Lindy" system, just that he's paid less and less is expected of him? Way to keep twisting that argument.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

So then its not that Pyatt is a more aggressive player now that he's out of Lindy" system, just that he's paid less and less is expected of him? Way to keep twisting that argument.

 

This year...

 

Pyatt, as many goals as your 4th-12th forwards combined.

 

Kassian as well.

 

Hey...I admire anyone that can spend money on this team year after year. I gave up my tickets after 2007.

 

Again...find me ONE player Lindy Ruff has developed in 16 years that can score 15-20 goals and impose even mediocre physical will on someone?

 

Maybe give him some credit for Dumont, but they let him walk over a few pennies to try and get to Briere.

 

Let's just see if Foligno turns into just another body, and if Ott loses his mojo after a few weeks. You can't fight the system. I don't have the energy to do it anymore, that's for sure.

[tom webster]

This year...

 

Pyatt, as many goals as your 4th-12th forwards combined.

 

Kassian as well.

 

Hey...I admire anyone that can spend money on this team year after year. I gave up my tickets after 2007.

 

Again...find me ONE player Lindy Ruff has developed in 16 years that can score 15-20 goals and impose even mediocre physical will on someone?

 

Maybe give him some credit for Dumont, but they let him walk over a few pennies to try and get to Briere.

 

Let's just see if Foligno turns into just another body, and if Ott loses his mojo after a few weeks. You can't fight the system. I don't have the energy to do it anymore, that's for sure.

 

A) I would argue the stats say Stafford answers the first question based on the stats. Look up how many forwards scored 20 goals and recorded over 100 hits last year. I would concur on Dumont and add Grosek.

 

B) The fact that I can come up with only two or three and can only truly credit you with coming up with a good argument on one(Pyatt) begs the question of whether he was given anybody else over the course of 16 years that had the ability to satisfy your quest.

 

Which leads to the point I have been making since Darcy first tracked me down 15 years ago to argue his case with me ( its been a long time since I played the I know someone too game), he underates the gritty side of the game.