Kassian to Vancouver for Hodgson

[Weave]

That's why this Kassian/gragnani deal is exciting to watch develop. The team gave up on them and shopped them, yet they are both only slightly tainted by Ruff. Gragnani has been around, but he played so smooth in the playoffs without having been coached by Lindy, that I am sure Vancouver took note of this and view this trade as a potential steal for them.

 

I think you may be overstating it when you say the team gave up on Kassian. It *might* be accurate to say that they had concerns about what kind of player he might become, but trading =/= giving up on.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I just can't help but feeling that if JP hadn't had the misfortune of getting drafted by the Sabres and being forced to develop under the yoke of Lindy Ruff's ineptitude, that he would have been an annual 50 goal scorer and multi-MVP award winner.

 

That and Pommers just doesn't seem to hate Lindy enough.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Obviously you don't pay attention to the positives I say. I've given Ruff plenty of credit. My biggest issues have always been lack of developing gritty forwards, and his mismanagement of Ryan Miller.

 

Ruff is a top 8-20 coach. However given his philosophy and that of Regier, the combo is toxic.

 

Darcy.....I'd rather pull a name out of a hat and take my chances.

[Weave]

Psst. Think Jason Pominville.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

 

carry on then.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think you may be overstating it when you say the team gave up on Kassian. It *might* be accurate to say that they had concerns about what kind of player he might become, but trading =/= giving up on.

 

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

[iliketofrolic]

You know who I will give credit to Lindy Ruff for developing? Jason Pominville. I think he has gotten the most out of him and has been great for him. If you are a defensive minded perimeter player who doesn't like to make waves...Lindy is good for you.

 

 

 

You just helped make my point.

 

The only 2 on that list who were original Sabres that were still young when they left "the system" are McArthur and Paille.

 

All the other guys were career Sabres, or had come to Buffalo as established vets...other than Briere, who is just as good in Philly. Lydman was a league leader in +/- when he left. Grier was Grier....Drury was the only guy who tanked, but he was well established before he got to Buffalo.

 

That's why this Kassian/gragnani deal is exciting to watch develop. The team gave up on them and shopped them, yet they are both only slightly tainted by Ruff. Gragnani has been around, but he played so smooth in the playoffs without having been coached by Lindy, that I am sure Vancouver took note of this and view this trade as a potential steal for them.

I disagree with my premise, too. See carpandean's response to my post above.

 

And welcome to the board.

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

 

 

Psst. Think Jason Pominville.

 

GO SABRES!!!

Oh okay, I didn't realize you were being sarcastic. Thanks

[Weave]

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

 

Again, trade =/= giving up. They could have been shopping him since the day he was drafted and it doesn't change that. What you and I do not know, and this is the crux of my point, is just how much value he had among other teams in the league. We've all said all along that you cannot give up crap and get quality in return. Calling him "given up on" assumes that the trade wasn't seen as a value for value move by both organizations. You are willing to use that label with absolutely nothing concrete to base it on. All I am saying is, it is about as likely that the team identified him as the best resource to get a skilled young center in return as it is the team decided he wasn't going to develop as planned. You appear to me to be ignoring the first and focusing on the second and I see no more evidence for the second than I do for the first.

[Trettioåtta]

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

 

You don't know they didn't try and get Getzlaf out of the duck? It could just be the ducks wanted Vanek, Armia and Kassian (look i can speculate as well)

Iginla was never going anywhere, nor should he unless he asks for a trade

[K-9]

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

 

If previous reports are true, Kassian never could have been the centerpiece for any package involving Getzlaf. The rumors were the price was Myers. End of discussion. And rightly so, IMO.

 

I love everything about what Iginla brings to the table. But Kassian would have been too high a price. Kassian represents "Iginla future" while Iginla represents well, Iginla past. His best days are behind him.

 

I think by mid-December, with the Leino at center experiment already a failure, that the need for a legit pivot prospect became too glaring even for Regier to ignore. The only asset available to attract that player was our best prospect, Kassian. It wouldn't surprise me if the Sabres were trying to send him to the Ducks in a package for Getzlaf but I can understand the Ducks not wanting that deal.

 

Anyway, we need to let it go. It took our #1 prospect plus MAG to get another #1 prospect. All there is to it. There is no more 'there' there.

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Campy]

Umm....Darcy wanted a first but settled for Hodgson because Vancouver also valued the pick more. According to our boardly sources.

 

And yes....would rather have Pyatt at $1 million over Stafford at $4 million....

 

You guys try so hard to paint me in a corner. If some posters held the team as accountable as they try to catch me on something, we may have won a cup by now.

 

Yes, fans whining on a message board is exactly what wins Stanley Cups. :doh:

[K-9]

Obviously you don't pay attention to the positives I say. I've given Ruff plenty of credit. My biggest issues have always been lack of developing gritty forwards, and his mismanagement of Ryan Miller.

 

Ruff is a top 8-20 coach. However given his philosophy and that of Regier, the combo is toxic.

 

Darcy.....I'd rather pull a name out of a hat and take my chances.

 

You'll have to forgive me if the cacophony of your Ohio State Marching Band-sized negatives tend to mute the music of piccolo solo-sized positives (which are seemingly conducted in a sound-proofed booth).

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Fair enough boys.

 

The only reason I would have pushed for Iginla, even if he is in his twilight, is to get a true leader. I feel that is a much bigger need for what was a rudderless ship than a center prospect.

 

Onward and upward....

[Campy]

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

 

Sounds to me like they recognized they had player other teams coveted at a postion of relative depth that could be traded to secure a point-producing centerman.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

You'll have to forgive me if the cacophony of your Ohio State Marching Band-sized negatives tend to mute the music of piccolo solo-sized positives (which are seemingly conducted in a sound-proofed booth).

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

:P

 

You just don't want to listen...HOORAY SABRES!

 

[SwampD]

Fair enough boys.

 

The only reason I would have pushed for Iginla, even if he is in his twilight, is to get a true leader. I feel that is a much bigger need for what was a rudderless ship than a center prospect.

 

Onward and upward....

I think if you're building for this year, definitely Iginla. If you're building for next year or the year after, I'll take Hodgson.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think if you're building for this year, definitely Iginla. If you're building for next year or the year after, I'll take Hodgson.

 

My thinking was back in December, the season could have been saved. My plan was to trade for Iginla and make a push for Doan and Stoll in FA, or even try and get them in here early.....and boom....you have a true contender.

 

Even with what could be deemed the biggest trade of the deadline, you waited 3 months, 90% chance lost this season, and really didn't move back or forward. The picks are nice for Gaustad, but you still have the same core in place.

 

nothing stopping them from going after Doan in FA still, but I don't know what is here to lure a lifelong guy out of his situation if Phoenix comes anywhere close.

[SwampD]

My thinking was back in December, the season could have been saved. My plan was to trade for Iginla and make a push for Doan and Stoll in FA, or even try and get them in here early.....and boom....you have a true contender.

 

Even with what could be deemed the biggest trade of the deadline, you waited 3 months, 90% chance lost this season, and really didn't move back or forward. The picks are nice for Gaustad, but you still have the same core in place.

 

nothing stopping them from going after Doan in FA still, but I don't know what is here to lure a lifelong guy out of his situation if Phoenix comes anywhere close.

This season isn't over yet. They really are a different team when healthy. I just don't like how drastically worse they get with 1 or 2 injuries.

 

As far as Kass for Hodgson, I think we're going to get the better of it. I listened to Kassian being interviewed by the Vancouver station yesterday. They were really pushing the fighting and toughness angle and it really seemed like he was uncomfortable with the whole thing and wanted to change the subject.

 

Also, we've needed a center for so long that I can't fault DR for moving whatever he had to to get a good one (it appears) in return.

[LGR4GM]

My thinking was back in December, the season could have been saved. My plan was to trade for Iginla and make a push for Doan and Stoll in FA, or even try and get them in here early.....and boom....you have a true contender.

 

Even with what could be deemed the biggest trade of the deadline, you waited 3 months, 90% chance lost this season, and really didn't move back or forward. The picks are nice for Gaustad, but you still have the same core in place.

 

nothing stopping them from going after Doan in FA still, but I don't know what is here to lure a lifelong guy out of his situation if Phoenix comes anywhere close.

I would rather have 22yr old Cody Hodgson now, than soon to be 35 yr Old Iginla then... I agree that the same core is basically in place but a new core is starting to make waves. Ennis, Gerbe, Myers, Weber, Hodgson even are all young guys coming in and any claim that this current core will "hurt" them I think is unfounded by the way they have played thus far. This team is finding its identity and if anything Hodgson brings at the very least a new way of looking at the game because no matter what Ruff's system is, a player who has learned to keep his head on a swivel and be alert will always possess those skills.

[Eleven]

Every single one of those 8 teams has fired their coach in the past 2+ years. 8 for 8 100%.

 

If Lindy is just a notch ahead of those guys.....shouldn't the talk about firing him be valid? Even if he isn't 100% to be fired.....50% or even 30% makes every bit of flack he takes and debate about him valid.

 

PS...welcome to the board.

 

And they all still suck.

[nfreeman]

Nope....Kassian is way too young and hasn't been around the Sabres long enough to be ruined for life. That's why I am so excited to see this progression. If Kassian fails, it isn't on Ruff and the Sabres.

By that same token, if he's successful, isn't it too early to say that he wouldn't have been equally successful here?

No, because every power forward type has failed miserably under Ruff. Dumont if you want to call him one, was fine. He started elsewhere and did even better once leaving Buffalo.

 

I didn't focus on this point in our initial exchange on this topic, but then noticed it today in looking at the downward spiral this thread has become. Carp is 100% right -- this side of your argument doesn't come close to holding water.

 

In fact, the outcome on Kassian can only hurt your theory. You are right that if he's a washout, it won't be because of Lindy. But there is NFW that any future success he has will prove or in any way support your theory that Lindy ruins young power forwards -- and there is NFW that the outcomes on the other guys you cited means that we can rely on any putative future Kassian success as support for your theory. First, each of those guys is a different individual, with different talent, intensity and other circumstances. Second, the results on those guys don't support your theory to begin with. JP did very well here. Pyatt has done OK but not more than that. None of the others has done a GD thing.

 

Cherry-picking and repetition don't constitute a real argument.

 

Umm....Darcy wanted a first but settled for Hodgson because Vancouver also valued the pick more. According to our boardly sources.

 

No. According to one board source but disputed by other board sources. And even the one board source backpedaled a bit when questioned.

 

More cherry-picking.

 

If no playoff series wins in the past 5 years isn't sucking...please tell me what it should be called?

 

Always the same? Pretty much the Sabres results and character 97% of the time I have been on the board has been the same. I don't know what people want.

 

They fight against Anaheim....I say good for them. Miller plays great for 2 games, I say I'll bang him if he played like that all year. What do people want? Lies? Sugarcoating? Fake excitement?

 

I told you...I love where the Bills are positioning themselves, and if they don't advance in the playoffs within 2 years....please.....call me out for it. I'm on record. The Bills have good people in place all over, and they will be good, soon.

 

You would think this is a RedWings board the way people act to honest critique.

 

No playoff wins is indeed honest critique. The half-baked theory about power forwards that isn't supported by the facts, although I'm sure you're being honest when you put it forward, isn't honest critique -- it's just a half-baked theory that isn't supported by the facts.

 

What do you call reports from inside the team that they were actively shopping him since December? Their 20yo 1st round pick from 2 years ago. Sounds like giving up on to me. The fans seem to have a majority opinion that he wasn't what was advertised and don't mind seeing him go.

 

I would have much rather had them beg Calgary to give up Iginla and make Kassian the centerpiece of that package. Or use it as part of a Getzlaf deal. Both those teams were listening back then, then pulled everyone off the market.

 

...and this is even more half-baked. It's more than fine to criticize DR and Lindy based on the actual results. But your (very valid) points, and you have quite a few, get lost when you cloud the message with the unrelenting "Steve Bernier proved that Lindy can't coach power forwards" and "we should have traded a pupu platter for Getzlaf/Iginla" nonsense. Bernier has been a washout for 4 or 5 teams at this point. The price for Getzlaf was Myers. Calgary has said consistently that Iginla isn't for sale.

 

And when I and others call you on the flaws in those statements, it doesn't mean we're shooting the messenger or that we're unquestioningly supporting DR and LR. It just means that quality discourse requires that the wheat be separated from the chaff.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

OK nfree.....if I can't believe someone on the kassian timeline, then I can't in other timelines either

 

Bernier hasn't done squat. Fine. Torres has and was worthless here. Pyatt sprung to life. I used Dumont as the only example because that is all we have had succeed.

 

Look at many of the better teams around the league. Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, Pitt.....look at how many guys that will hit 15+ goals and look at their hit totals. Guys like Datsyuk, Parise even are in the 40's....60's.....there are a half dozen guys on each of those teams at 50ish+ hits and teens+ goals. They each have a star in the upper edge and what would be considered a big bodied star....Bertuzzi, Letang, Lucic, Elias.......but the support grit around as well.

 

Look at the Sabres. Other than Stafford, all the skill guys pushing the end of the year at 15-20+ goals are in the 10's and 20's.

 

Really....who but Dumont and if you want to include Stafford, who half the board is willing to waive, shows skill and grit? Yet you have a hlaf dozen guys on those 4 teams doing so. I stopped after looking at those 4 and NYR, so I'm sure the numbers are elsewhere. People point to Detroit as a "skill" team....but they are big on the puck and have guys that can take a beating.

 

When was the last time we had numbers anywhere close? You have to go back to Peca, Ward, Barnaby and Varada....and that's a poor man's platter...all who Darcy shipped out anyway. You had another stint in Grier, Dumont, Pyatt and Drury....and again....all dust within a year of each other.

 

I can understand the 18 year olds not having a sense of history and development, but to me there has been a distinct and purposeful lack of gritty skill at the forward ranks. It is so obvious when comparing to the success around the league....look, even the 2 stints I gave you were Ruff's most successful years. We have been told by everyone that he has a say in the roster.

 

I don't get the blinders.

[nfreeman]

OK nfree.....if I can't believe someone on the kassian timeline, then I can't in other timelines either

 

Bernier hasn't done squat. Fine. Torres has and was worthless here. Pyatt sprung to life. I used Dumont as the only example because that is all we have had succeed.

 

Look at many of the better teams around the league. Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, Pitt.....look at how many guys that will hit 15+ goals and look at their hit totals. Guys like Datsyuk, Parise even are in the 40's....60's.....there are a half dozen guys on each of those teams at 50ish+ hits and teens+ goals. They each have a star in the upper edge and what would be considered a big bodied star....Bertuzzi, Letang, Lucic, Elias.......but the support grit around as well.

 

Look at the Sabres. Other than Stafford, all the skill guys pushing the end of the year at 15-20+ goals are in the 10's and 20's.

 

Really....who but Dumont and if you want to include Stafford, who half the board is willing to waive, shows skill and grit? Yet you have a hlaf dozen guys on those 4 teams doing so. I stopped after looking at those 4 and NYR, so I'm sure the numbers are elsewhere. People point to Detroit as a "skill" team....but they are big on the puck and have guys that can take a beating.

 

When was the last time we had numbers anywhere close? You have to go back to Peca, Ward, Barnaby and Varada....and that's a poor man's platter...all who Darcy shipped out anyway. You had another stint in Grier, Dumont, Pyatt and Drury....and again....all dust within a year of each other.

 

I can understand the 18 year olds not having a sense of history and development, but to me there has been a distinct and purposeful lack of gritty skill at the forward ranks. It is so obvious when comparing to the success around the league....look, even the 2 stints I gave you were Ruff's most successful years. We have been told by everyone that he has a say in the roster.

 

I don't get the blinders.

 

Much better.

 

I certainly won't disagree with the position that the Sabres' forwards play an insufficiently hard game. This is one of the reasons I'm ready to get rid of DR. I think a certain amount of toughness is needed to win in the playoffs and the Sabres have been gravely deficient in that respect since Black Sunday. DR has had enough opportunities to improve the forward group, including the grit deficiency, and has failed to do so. I'm tired of waiting for him to do so and I'm ready for someone else. (Although I will admit that I would be very happy to see him stay here and succeed, as I think he is fundamentally a good guy.)

 

And if Lindy in reality plays a big role in roster construction and you want to hold him accountable for it, as well as for zero playoff series wins in 4 years and counting -- that is reasonable too. But it's not reasonable, IMHO, to look at Pyatt, Bernier, Torres, Dumont and Kassian, their time here, the circumstances in which they left, and what they've done since leaving and fire a coach -- or even come to any logical conclusions about that coach -- based on those guys.

 

I think this horse has been beaten enough so I am standing down (for now anyway).

 

Speaking of horses, what do you think about "Luck" on HBO so far? I think it's been OK, but I haven't been blown away.

[tom webster]

OK nfree.....if I can't believe someone on the kassian timeline, then I can't in other timelines either

 

Bernier hasn't done squat. Fine. Torres has and was worthless here. Pyatt sprung to life. I used Dumont as the only example because that is all we have had succeed.

 

Look at many of the better teams around the league. Detroit, Boston, New Jersey, Pitt.....look at how many guys that will hit 15+ goals and look at their hit totals. Guys like Datsyuk, Parise even are in the 40's....60's.....there are a half dozen guys on each of those teams at 50ish+ hits and teens+ goals. They each have a star in the upper edge and what would be considered a big bodied star....Bertuzzi, Letang, Lucic, Elias.......but the support grit around as well.

 

Look at the Sabres. Other than Stafford, all the skill guys pushing the end of the year at 15-20+ goals are in the 10's and 20's.

 

Really....who but Dumont and if you want to include Stafford, who half the board is willing to waive, shows skill and grit? Yet you have a hlaf dozen guys on those 4 teams doing so. I stopped after looking at those 4 and NYR, so I'm sure the numbers are elsewhere. People point to Detroit as a "skill" team....but they are big on the puck and have guys that can take a beating.

 

When was the last time we had numbers anywhere close? You have to go back to Peca, Ward, Barnaby and Varada....and that's a poor man's platter...all who Darcy shipped out anyway. You had another stint in Grier, Dumont, Pyatt and Drury....and again....all dust within a year of each other.

 

I can understand the 18 year olds not having a sense of history and development, but to me there has been a distinct and purposeful lack of gritty skill at the forward ranks. It is so obvious when comparing to the success around the league....look, even the 2 stints I gave you were Ruff's most successful years. We have been told by everyone that he has a say in the roster.

 

I don't get the blinders.

 

Detroit, Boston and New Jersey all are in the bottom 10 in the league in hits. How many guys can they have and how important can hits be when two of the top 4 favorites to win the Cup(Boston and Detroit) are 24th and 25th in the league in hits?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Detroit, Boston and New Jersey all are in the bottom 10 in the league in hits. How many guys can they have and how important can hits be when two of the top 4 favorites to win the Cup(Boston and Detroit) are 24th and 25th in the league in hits?

 

Did you read?....the point is that they get 3x the physical play from their skill guys that the Sabres do. Many defenses are the same way...elevated numbers from many and balance.

 

The Sabres seem to rely on one line, if that, and 1 or 2 d-man to play physical....and their top 9 forwards go "wee-wee-wee"...all the way home.

 

I've never advocated for goons. I want grown men who have enough skill to respect, and enough grit to open up their own and their linemates' skill.

 

It's so simple, it's sad.

[tom webster]

Did you read?....the point is that they get 3x the physical play from their skill guys that the Sabres do. Many defenses are the same way...elevated numbers from many and balance.

 

The Sabres seem to rely on one line, if that, and 1 or 2 d-man to play physical....and their top 9 forwards go "wee-wee-wee"...all the way home.

 

I've never advocated for goons. I want grown men who have enough skill to respect, and enough grit to open up their own and their linemates' skill.

 

It's so simple, it's sad.

 

First, you again take liberty with statistics. Having an aggregate number three times another player does not make you three times more physical.

 

Mostly, though, we agree that the Sabres need to be more physical but vehemently disagree over the importance of a stat that is calculated by retired off ice officials with very little standardized training that as Brian Burke himself varies dramatically from city to city. It makes shot totals look like an exact science.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

Speaking of horses, what do you think about "Luck" on HBO so far? I think it's been OK, but I haven't been blown away.

 

I sort of agree. He is so spot on with the character development and detail, it is scary. It is almost too many things going on at once to really focus if someone doesn't have background. But what you see is all based on truth. Something like Boardwalk Empire is methodical in development and steady. This is fast paced and shift-shift-shift....Sopranos was the happy medium. I was excited after the 2nd episode but it's sort of been a B after that.

 

People in the industry seem to love it or hate it. It's so honest in some light that people are mad it makes everyone look like scumbags. But I can put a name and a face in real life to every one of those characters. That makes it funny to me.

 

First, you again take liberty with statistics. Having an aggregate number three times another player does not make you three times more physical.

 

Mostly, though, we agree that the Sabres need to be more physical but vehemently disagree over the importance of a stat that is calculated by retired off ice officials with very little standardized training that as Brian Burke himself varies dramatically from city to city. It makes shot totals look like an exact science.

 

Jeez......I'm not trying to prove with statistics and Darcy Math. People get po'd when I give an honest opinion about what I see with my own eyes and tell me to prove it. These numbers are as close as I can do with subjective matter....that really shouldn't be subjective since anyone that watches the NHL should be able to see the difference between the Sabres and the better teams on a regular basis.

 

If the Sabres and their style of play gets anyone off on a regular basis, congratulations. They also sell geriatric bondage dvd's...so there is an audience for everything.