Kassian to Vancouver for Hodgson

deluca67 · March 9, 2014

You point out the posts where I've said good things about Connolly, Leino, and/or Stafford. I'm guessing that you're going to have to reach into the first six months of Leino (if even that), and the first year or two of the other two.

All you have to do is look at who started the get rid of Stafford thread, ffs.

Hodgson is not comparable to those.

And Kassian is.

Actually it was a reference to you, it was a reference to the hoards on this board that defended Connolly, the Stafford contract and the Leino signing. Much like the the current Hodgson debate my opinions make people feel incredulous despite the established track record.

carpandean · March 9, 2014

Actually it was a reference to you, it was a reference to the hoards on this board that defended Connolly, the Stafford contract and the Leino signing. Much like the the current Hodgson debate my opinions make people feel incredulous despite the established track record.

Well, personally, I thought:

1) Connolly was a very talented player and I liked having him until the injuries started piling up. They needed to move (not re-sign) him or, at the very least, not have him slotted in as a top-two center (with Hecht as the backup plan), long before they did.

2) Stafford was overpaid in his contract. However, I did point out that he wasn't paid based solely on his ludicrous scoring rate over 35 games (or whatever it was) as you liked to point out, because that rate would have made him more than a $4M a year player. (I'd also point out that he has been worse since that contract than he was before that contract year. Had he returned to at least that pace, his contract wouldn't have been as bad.)

3) Leino was overpaid, especially after 10 minutes of investigation revealed that he hadn't been a center since his second-to-last year in Finland and that his scoring went up significantly after he was converted to the wing. Didn't like the signing.

So, I didn't disagree with you too much on those contracts. However, I think Hodgson will be a very good second-line center (or second-line winger who provides depth at the scoring-line center position) once this team actually has some more talent. I would argue that he is a very calm presence, but I certainly have seen urgency. For example, another player was stripped of the puck in the neutral-zone last game and Cody turned back, skated hard and dove to knock the puck off the opponent's stick as they entered the Sabres' zone on a 2-on-1. The play then went the other way for a Sabres' scoring chance. Just one example that I remember in detail, but there have been others.

LTS · March 10, 2014

We're talking fractions of a second. I would think it would be near impossible to disengage once the decision is made to throw the hit no matter was the target does.

Looking at Kassian's reaction he knew right away he screwed up. He didn't give the bewildered John Scott "what do mean I can't elbow a player in the head from behind" look like he did after the attack on Ericksson.

That was more than a fraction of a second and as I said.. his entire path was going to deliver an illegal hit, unless the the player turned counter-clockwise into the ice just so he could face Kassian. This would make no sense of course because the puck wasn't there.. there would be no reason to turn that way.

Kassian was on a bee line to deliver an illegal hit and the fact that the player turned only made it that much worse. It was an approach from behind to begin with.

And I don't care what you think about Scott. It's irrelevant to my point. John Scott was not on the ice. You would think it's near impossible to disengage but you know what's funny? Watch these players chase a guy into the corner and when the guy with the puck turns abruptly it's almost freakishly fast how quick the defending player can stop and follow the player back in the opposite direction. It just doesn't hold up, sorry.

And yea, he knew he screwed up. Because of just hitting the guy from behind he now just boarded the guy from behind... at least I can give him credit for having the intelligence to realize he did something wrong.

Edited March 10, 2014 by LTS

nfreeman · March 10, 2014

I honestly believe that when it comes time for this team to win that there will be no place on this roster for Cody Hodgson. He is an average talent on a team with no talent offensively. He has little if any intensity and spends most of his time on the ice invisible. He is a perfect Regier Era style player. Like any player there is the possibility of a turnaround. I just don't see any of the qualities in him needed to make that happen. I just don;t think he cares enough.

If I'm wrong down the line I'll admit it. I'm 100% sure right now that I'm not.

I'll make the case for Hodgson. He's better than he's getting credit for. I agree that he lacks intensity, but in reality not every single member of your top 6 is a blood and guts player. I am fine with Hodgson as our 2nd line center going forward and am looking forward to him continuing to improve his game. Every single spot around him in the top 6 needs to be filled in properly if we're going to have playoff success, though. I definitely don't think Ennis is one of those pieces.

This is where I am as well, although I disagree about Ennis.

I think Hodgy is a pretty good player. He just turned 24 and he seems to just keep working diligently, plugging away and improving steadily.

He's got physical limitations, he doesn't play a hard-hitting game and he's never going to be a good #1 center. But I don't see him floating and I do see him, with more steady improvement and good linemates, as a dependable, multitalented #2 center.

if Kass was still on the sabres we would hear how he floats around most of the time and goes off the rails and makes the sabres the laughing stock of the league with his bushleague manchild outburts of stupidity............ instead we hear how he is everything we lack and you just gotta cut the guy some slack it was a split second decision and it;s not like he skated across the rink just to pile drive the guy into the boards from behind or anything

Drnky, you are far from the only one who does this, but I will protest this one anyway. Setting up straw men doesn't make for good hockey talk. Kassian isn't still here and no one has said this. There is enough to discuss without fabricating both scenarios and others' responses to those scenarios.

I agree. 50-60 point scorers are just not needed on a cup team

To be fair to DeLuca and the other non-fans of Hodgy, this is an oversimplification. It's not just about putting up numbers. If it were, STL, like a certain ex-GM we know, would've given Derek Roy a long-term deal and a prominent role on their (clearly Cup-contending) team and be filling the air with BS about him being a top 20 center -- instead of keeping him on a short leash with a 1-year deal and using him as a utility spare part.

Yeah! I file this right with those post from those that said the Stafford contract was good value and Leino was a great free agent signing because of his puck possession.

Briere and Connolly, the two most prolific 100 point scores (according to this board) to never score 100 points in a season. Hell, Briere cashed those imaginary points into $52 mil.

And here is where I call BS. There was no "imaginary" about Briere. Briere had a 95-point season the year before he got his fat contract. No Sabre has had that many since Hawerchuk in 1992-93. Briere is also the NHL leader in playoff scoring since the first lockout.

I assume you've given up the ghost on the "Roy is better than Briere" position?

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

To be fair to DeLuca and the other non-fans of Hodgy, this is an oversimplification. It's not just about putting up numbers. If it were, STL, like a certain ex-GM we know, would've given Derek Roy a long-term deal and a prominent role on their (clearly Cup-contending) team and be filling the air with BS about him being a top 20 center -- instead of keeping him on a short leash with a 1-year deal and using him as a utility spare part.

To be fair to Roy, this is BS. Roy has clearly declined as a player, so you simply can't say what a contender does with 2014 Roy is what that contender would have done with 2008 Roy.

Doohicksie · March 10, 2014

To be fair to TrueBluePhD, bear in mind that he lives in Cheektowaga. I grew up there and fully understand how living there can leave your brain addled.

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

To be fair to TrueBluePhD, bear in mind that he lives in Cheektowaga. I grew up there and fully understand how living there can leave your brain addled.

Yea, but I went to West Seneca schools, so there!

...or is that not any better? :P

nfreeman · March 10, 2014

To be fair to Roy, this is BS. Roy has clearly declined as a player, so you simply can't say what a contender does with 2014 Roy is what that contender would have done with 2008 Roy.

Roy is 30 years old and had 22 pts in 30 games last year for the Stars, a crappy team. So he's not washed up.

When 2 good teams (Vancouver and STL) had him on their rosters and took his measure, they weren't interested in giving him a prominent role.

To be fair to TrueBluePhD, bear in mind that he lives in Cheektowaga. I grew up there and fully understand how living there can leave your brain addled.

Come to think of it, that would explain a lot...

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

Roy is 30 years old and had 22 pts in 30 games last year for the Stars, a crappy team. So he's not washed up.

When 2 good teams (Vancouver and STL) had him on their rosters and took his measure, they weren't interested in giving him a prominent role.

Well, he went from being a 70 point player to being a 50 point player; that's a significant decline even if it's not washed up (and I never said he was washed up). And I'll just go ahead and use the eye test anyway: he clearly lost a step and doesn't have the same speed/quickness a player of his stature needs to play at a high level. He's not dead, but even if given the opportunity he's not going to be a 70 point player again.

Trettioåtta · March 10, 2014

Well, he went from being a 70 point player to being a 50 point player; that's a significant decline even if it's not washed up (and I never said he was washed up). And I'll just go ahead and use the eye test anyway: he clearly lost a step and doesn't have the same speed/quickness a player of his stature needs to play at a high level. He's not dead, but even if given the opportunity he's not going to be a 70 point player again.

I hope GODD replies with advanced analytics showing Roy's footspeed has not faltered :P

nfreeman · March 10, 2014

Well, he went from being a 70 point player to being a 50 point player; that's a significant decline even if it's not washed up (and I never said he was washed up). And I'll just go ahead and use the eye test anyway: he clearly lost a step and doesn't have the same speed/quickness a player of his stature needs to play at a high level. He's not dead, but even if given the opportunity he's not going to be a 70 point player again.

22 pts in 30 games extrapolates to 60 pts, not 50. And in his last year with the Sabres, at age 27, he had 44 pts.

His issues have never been physical.

Having said that, I agree with you that he won't be a 70-pt player again. But I think, again, it's not because of physical limitations.

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

I hope GODD replies with advanced analytics showing Roy's footspeed has not faltered :P

If this happens, the Ukraine situation is going to suddenly concern me much more :lol:

Doohicksie · March 10, 2014

Come to think of it, that would explain a lot...

About TrueBlue or me?

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

22 pts in 30 games extrapolates to 60 pts, not 50. And in his last year with the Sabres, at age 27, he had 44 pts.

His issues have never been physical.

Having said that, I agree with you that he won't be a 70-pt player again. But I think, again, it's not because of physical limitations.

If you're comfortable extrapolating a 30 game stretch to a full 82 game season, then I don't think we have much else to discuss here.

nfreeman · March 10, 2014

If you're comfortable extrapolating a 30 game stretch to a full 82 game season, then I don't think we have much else to discuss here.

Well, I was just responding to your assertion that he was a 50-point guy (which I thought you were basing on last year's numbers, but perhaps not).

So excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me.

Huckleberry · March 10, 2014

If this happens, the Ukraine situation is going to suddenly concern me much more :lol:

It already should concern everybody, resembles the time from when Hitler invaded poland to take the danzig corridor.

TrueBlueGED · March 10, 2014

Well, I was just responding to your assertion that he was a 50-point guy (which I thought you were basing on last year's numbers, but perhaps not).

So excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me.

Nope, I was referring to the fact that the last full season he played in Buffalo, getting heavy ice time, he had 44 points...which is almost exactly what he's on pace for this season getting fewer (though easier) minutes. Even in the lockout-shortened season, he was only on pace for about 54 points over 82 games. So I really don't think it's the usage on better teams that has caused his decline in production, but rather that he hasn't been the same physically since his leg injury.

It already should concern everybody, resembles the time from when Hitler invaded poland to take the danzig corridor.

It isn't that I'm not concerned at all, it's that I don't think we're on the eve of WWIII.

Hoss · March 10, 2014

The fact that this is still drawing so much debate is crazy.

LGR4GM · March 11, 2014

The fact that this is still drawing so much debate is crazy.

Agreed. I think Deslauriers brings more to the table than Kassian did. I think Hodgson is a 2nd line center who is defensively questionable. Why we are still debating it is beyond me.

deluca67 · March 12, 2014

This is where I am as well, although I disagree about Ennis.

I think Hodgy is a pretty good player. He just turned 24 and he seems to just keep working diligently, plugging away and improving steadily.

He's got physical limitations, he doesn't play a hard-hitting game and he's never going to be a good #1 center. But I don't see him floating and I do see him, with more steady improvement and good linemates, as a dependable, multitalented #2 center.

Drnky, you are far from the only one who does this, but I will protest this one anyway. Setting up straw men doesn't make for good hockey talk. Kassian isn't still here and no one has said this. There is enough to discuss without fabricating both scenarios and others' responses to those scenarios.

To be fair to DeLuca and the other non-fans of Hodgy, this is an oversimplification. It's not just about putting up numbers. If it were, STL, like a certain ex-GM we know, would've given Derek Roy a long-term deal and a prominent role on their (clearly Cup-contending) team and be filling the air with BS about him being a top 20 center -- instead of keeping him on a short leash with a 1-year deal and using him as a utility spare part.

And here is where I call BS. There was no "imaginary" about Briere. Briere had a 95-point season the year before he got his fat contract. No Sabre has had that many since Hawerchuk in 1992-93. Briere is also the NHL leader in playoff scoring since the first lockout.

I assume you've given up the ghost on the "Roy is better than Briere" position?

A) how many 100 point seasons did Briere have? Zero! He did have 95 in a contract year (big surprise) and than his production fell off with the exception of the 09-10 playoffs. He was never a 100 point player despite many attempts my those on this board to inflate his stats to that stature.

B) I've owned my misjudgment of Roy for sometime now. We all have at least one of those moments we would like to forget. Like you saying Steve Montador was a top four defenseman. More examples, TW trying to compare Drew Stafford and Bobby Ryan, drnkirishone comparing Tyler Seguin to Roy or every post by shrader. There are many moments we would all like to forget. ;)

Edited March 12, 2014 by deluca67

Sabres Fan in NS · March 12, 2014

And here is where I call BS. There was no "imaginary" about Briere. Briere had a 95-point season the year before he got his fat contract. No Sabre has had that many since Hawerchuk in 1992-93. Briere is also the NHL leader in playoff scoring since the first lockout.

Hawerchuk had 96 that season (80 assists ... wow) and both Lafontaine (148) and Mogilny (127) had well over 100 points that season.

deluca67 · March 12, 2014

Hawerchuk had 96 that season (80 assists ... wow) and both Lafontaine (148) and Mogilny (127) had well over 100 points that season.

Miro Satan's 73 pt & 75 pt campaigns in 2001-02 & 2002-03 were, IMO, more impressive than Briere's 95 when you take into account the guys they were playing with. Briere's 95 was only 11 points higher than Vanek's 84. Satan was 25 & 31 points higher than the Sabres 2nd leading scorer. If Satan had a Vanek, Pominville or Drury who knows how many points he could have had. Roy? After Briere jumped ship Roy came back with a solid 81 point campaign which gives him the same number of 80+ point seasons as Briere.

Eleven · March 12, 2014

DeLuca, you actually make a good point about Satan right there. He was a talented player, no doubt. That doesn't take away from Briere, though, AND it plays right into why Cody Hodgson doesn't have more points: same reason as Satan.

How was Kassian last night in Vancouver's third period? Oh, that's right.

drnkirishone · March 12, 2014

A) how many 100 point seasons did Briere have? Zero! He did have 95 in a contract year (big surprise) and than his production fell off with the exception of the 09-10 playoffs. He was never a 100 point player despite many attempts my those on this board to inflate his stats to that stature.

B) I've owned my misjudgment of Roy for sometime now. We all have at least one of those moments we would like to forget. Like you saying Steve Montador was a top four defenseman. More examples, TW trying to compare Drew Stafford and Bobby Ryan, drnkirishone comparing Tyler Seguin to Roy or every post by shrader. There are many moments we would all like to forget. ;)

I am waiting till at least next year until I say he isn't a newer version of Roy. He still has plenty of time to prove me right.

Hoss · March 12, 2014

So I can't say $natch on here, but a guy can have a picture of some psyched out demon flipping me off? Okay.

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