Feel free to bash me...I want the Sabres to miss the playoffs!

[TheChimp]

When I was hoping for a #3 or #2 pick, it was when I wasn't all that keen on Darcy's abilities. This Sulzer/Hodgson deal has changed that considerably, and now I'm not at all concerned that Darcy has to go at #13. I think he'll make a good pick.

[Weave]

I think the younger core is where it's at. Guys like Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno....not only do they want to be great, they believe they can be. I can't say for sure they'll turn into top-6 players on a Cup contender, or they'll all reach/exceed potential...but I do know it all starts with that belief and desire, because without that, you get Dustin Penner. I believe those 3 in particular will bust their humps this offseason to get better and will be key contributors next season.

 

The biggest positive that I am taking from this season is the rise of a new core. Over the last month it sure looked to me like guys like Ennis were starting to assert themselves and having a leadership impact that transends the impact that guys like Roy have had in the very recent past. Up until this year our best prospects for turning the team around quickly entailed surrounding the likes of Vanek and Roy with grit and character. The rise of Ennis, Foligno, Myers, and the acquisition of Hogdson change that. Suddenly Vanek and Roy become less valuable to the team and may very well be great chips to play in the trading market. And even if they aren't moved, they are already beginning to fall back into support roles. IMO this is a positive development.

[SwampD]

The biggest positive that I am taking from this season is the rise of a new core. Over the last month it sure looked to me like guys like Ennis were starting to assert themselves and having a leadership impact that transends the impact that guys like Roy have had in the very recent past. Up until this year our best prospects for turning the team around quickly entailed surrounding the likes of Vanek and Roy with grit and character. The rise of Ennis, Foligno, Myers, and the acquisition of Hogdson change that. Suddenly Vanek and Roy become less valuable to the team and may very well be great chips to play in the trading market. And even if they aren't moved, they are already beginning to fall back into support roles. IMO this is a positive development.

I can honestly say that I share absolutely none of your optimism. Zero.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

The biggest positive that I am taking from this season is the rise of a new core. Over the last month it sure looked to me like guys like Ennis were starting to assert themselves and having a leadership impact that transends the impact that guys like Roy have had in the very recent past. Up until this year our best prospects for turning the team around quickly entailed surrounding the likes of Vanek and Roy with grit and character. The rise of Ennis, Foligno, Myers, and the acquisition of Hogdson change that. Suddenly Vanek and Roy become less valuable to the team and may very well be great chips to play in the trading market. And even if they aren't moved, they are already beginning to fall back into support roles. IMO this is a positive development.

 

I agree with this, although I would like Vanek and CoHo to have more time together and for Vanek to play healthy alongside him and see what they can build together as a line with Tropp.

[LabattBlue]

I just looked back at the post that I started this thread with, and I don't feel any different today than I did on that day. I am not going to jump for joy that the Sabres missed the playoffs and I got my wish, as finishing 9th in the conference wasn't what I had in mind(but an outcome that I should have seen coming).

 

I will conclude with this...How did a team like Ottawa that was predicted to be one of the worst in the conference, and a team like Florida that turned over the majority of their roster, make the playoffs, and the Sabres with one of the biggest payrolls in the NHL, didn't? The problems are so much greater than injuries. Much greater. Talent level, coaching decisions, player development, front office decisions, etc... No one should be above criticism after another disappointing season. I'll be back to talk about the off-season in June.

 

:(

[Derrico]

The biggest positive that I am taking from this season is the rise of a new core. Over the last month it sure looked to me like guys like Ennis were starting to assert themselves and having a leadership impact that transends the impact that guys like Roy have had in the very recent past. Up until this year our best prospects for turning the team around quickly entailed surrounding the likes of Vanek and Roy with grit and character. The rise of Ennis, Foligno, Myers, and the acquisition of Hogdson change that. Suddenly Vanek and Roy become less valuable to the team and may very well be great chips to play in the trading market. And even if they aren't moved, they are already beginning to fall back into support roles. IMO this is a positive development.

 

I agree with most of this. A new core is forming with the likes of CoHo, Foligno, Ennis and Myers. Give it a couple of years and we will see the Brennans and McNabbs of the world join them. As I think everyone feels, we don't need Roy on this team any longer. As for Vanek, I really want to hope that he was playing hurt. I know the point production he had over the past 10 games has been good but there were very few times I've noticed him down the stretch when we needed him to take over games.

[papazoid]

according to this...the Sabres currently pick 11th.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=11410

[shrader]

according to this...the Sabres currently pick 11th.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/dr...ature/?id=11410

 

And after Pegula bribes the lottery guy, they'll move up 4 slots.

 

edit: Someone brought up the parallel to New Jersey earlier. They won the lottery last year.

[SwampD]

All this talk of this mythical "New Core" just reeks of '07. IIRC all we needed was for Roy, Vanek, Pommers, etc to mature and get a couple more seasons under their belt and we wouldn't even remember CD and DB's names.

 

Right now, I don't think we are any closer to a Cup, or even being a contender, than we were five years ago. In fact, we may be further away. By the time this [yet another] New Core develops, Miller will be past his prime and we'll then have a hole in goalie.

 

This sucks.

[Punch]

All this talk of this mythical "New Core" just reeks of '07. IIRC all we needed was for Roy, Vanek, Pommers, etc to mature and get a couple more seasons under their belt and we wouldn't even remember CD and DB's names.

 

Right now, I don't think we are any closer to a Cup, or even being a contender, than we were five years ago. In fact, we may be further away. By the time this [yet another] New Core develops, Miller will be past his prime and we'll then have a hole in goalie.

 

This sucks.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but I think the difference is that Roy, Pominville and Vanek were essentially passengers on a team that was lead by Briere, Drury and a few others. When called upon to take over the reigns, the "new core" following July 1, 2007 exhibited none of the requisite leadership qualities and instead folded despite respectable offensive numbers. This year, young players like Ennis, Foligno, Myers and arguably a few others stepped into an existing leadership void and thrived in pressure situations down the stretch.

 

I would also add that in the ensuing seasons both Pominville and Vanek have matured quite a bit, particularly Pommers this year--- to the point where I am no longer disturbed by the C on his sweater.

[TrueBlueGED]

All this talk of this mythical "New Core" just reeks of '07. IIRC all we needed was for Roy, Vanek, Pommers, etc to mature and get a couple more seasons under their belt and we wouldn't even remember CD and DB's names.

 

Right now, I don't think we are any closer to a Cup, or even being a contender, than we were five years ago. In fact, we may be further away. By the time this [yet another] New Core develops, Miller will be past his prime and we'll then have a hole in goalie.

 

This sucks.

 

I disagree with this assessment. To me, the only parallel to 07 is that the end wasn't what we all wanted it to be. But that team made consecutive conference finals and then gutted the team (and yes, you can argue the gutting began in 06). As much of a bitter disappointment as this season was...we have better ownership willing to structure contracts to attract UFAs, willing to bury salary in Rochester if needed, 4 draft picks in the top 60 and some good (if unspectacular) trade chips. Whether the team takes advantage of its opportunities this summer is an entirely different discussion, but I think the setup is infinitely superior to 07.

 

I'm not so much worried about Miller, as goaltenders can be very effective into their mid 30s. Also I don't think Miller's game relies on elite athleticism like some goaltenders, and I think his fundamental soundness and ability to read the play will help him age better than others. I'm more worried about Vanek and Pominville's prime being over than Miller's.

 

Edit: To attempt to inject some more optimism, take the case of the Rangers. They've been worse than the Sabres the past 5 years, and last year got bounced in 5 games by the playoff juggernaut Washington Capitals. This year, they're top in the conference and a popular Cup pick. What happened? They shed Drury, Del Zotto took a leap forward his 3rd year(he was so bad in his sophomore year he was sent to the AHL for the season), McDonagh wasn't a rookie and progressed, Callahan took the leadership role and ran with it, they added Richards, and Gaborik got healthy (yea, his injury mattered for them last season). Aside from being essentially guaranteed a #1 center UFA, what about the Sabres' setup is different from the turnaround the Rangers experienced this year?

[Weave]

All this talk of this mythical "New Core" just reeks of '07. IIRC all we needed was for Roy, Vanek, Pommers, etc to mature and get a couple more seasons under their belt and we wouldn't even remember CD and DB's names.

 

Right now, I don't think we are any closer to a Cup, or even being a contender, than we were five years ago. In fact, we may be further away. By the time this [yet another] New Core develops, Miller will be past his prime and we'll then have a hole in goalie.

 

This sucks.

 

I don't think I ever had the positive vibe about the "new core" in '07, certainly not like I have about the kids currently in the lineup. Don't get me wrong, there still needs to be significant change to this roster, but I feel better about building around the young guys than I ever felt about building around Roy, et al.

 

As for Miller being past his prime by then, yeah, that could be an issue. Fortunately the new core is NHL ready. Additions will have to be NHL ready as well.

[Ross Rhea]

I disagree with this assessment. To me, the only parallel to 07 is that the end wasn't what we all wanted it to be. But that team made consecutive conference finals and then gutted the team (and yes, you can argue the gutting began in 06). As much of a bitter disappointment as this season was...we have better ownership willing to structure contracts to attract UFAs, willing to bury salary in Rochester if needed, 4 draft picks in the top 60 and some good (if unspectacular) trade chips. Whether the team takes advantage of its opportunities this summer is an entirely different discussion, but I think the setup is infinitely superior to 07.

 

I'm not so much worried about Miller, as goaltenders can be very effective into their mid 30s. Also I don't think Miller's game relies on elite athleticism like some goaltenders, and I think his fundamental soundness and ability to read the play will help him age better than others. I'm more worried about Vanek and Pominville's prime being over than Miller's.

 

Pommer had a decent year and Vanek was injured most of the season. As the sky is blue, you could see there was something wrong with Vanek. I don't think either one of them are past their prime, but I do think Miller is on the wrong side of the mountain.

[TrueBlueGED]

Pommer had a decent year and Vanek was injured most of the season. As the sky is blue, you could see there was something wrong with Vanek. I don't think either one of them are past their prime, but I do think Miller is on the wrong side of the mountain.

 

Historically though, the opposite is true. Wingers' prime is 22-28, goaltenders don't generally even begin their prime until their late 20s. The only winger since the lockout to get 20 goals and 60 points every year from age 28-34 is Iginla...the only winger in NHL history to get 30 goals and 70 points over that span is Gordie Howe. And I don't remember the exact stat offhand, but a stupidly low percentage of wingers have a career best season after 28. I'm not saying Vanek and Pominville are useless, but I certainly don't expect them to get better from here. We've seen their best, and the most we can hope for is that they don't go into steep decline.

[SwampD]

I see the names Ennis and Foligno popping up a lot. Couldn't their so called leadership just be the product of playing for a coach who likes to have three 2nd lines? Vanek scored 40+ when he played with Roy and Max in that same position.

 

 

A little off topic, but why Ruff likes to break up true #1 lines I guess is a question for another day. If I hear "We moved [X] because we wanted to try and get somethin' going with [X]" I'm going to scream! Just leave good lines together!

[darksabre]

I see the names Ennis and Foligno popping up a lot. Couldn't their so called leadership just be the product of playing for a coach who likes to have three 2nd lines? Vanek scored 40+ when he played with Roy and Max in that same position.

 

 

A little off topic, but why Ruff likes to break up true #1 lines I guess is a question for another day. If I hear "We moved [X] because we wanted to try and get somethin' going with [X]" I'm going to scream! Just leave good lines together!

 

I dunno, I think he did a pretty good job of holding the Ennis line together. Especially since it was the only one producing.

 

I hope Roy is traded. I'm tired of him bungling up our first line. Find someone smarter to play with Vanek and Pommers.

[tom webster]

I dunno, I think he did a pretty good job of holding the Ennis line together. Especially since it was the only one producing.

 

I hope Roy is traded. I'm tired of him bungling up our first line. Find someone smarter to play with Vanek and Pommers.

 

I have to say that I lean towards Weave's view on the team. I'll leave this board for a while and hope when I return that a major deal involving Roy nd maybe Vanek is in play.

Have a great Summer.

[Weave]

I see the names Ennis and Foligno popping up a lot. Couldn't their so called leadership just be the product of playing for a coach who likes to have three 2nd lines? Vanek scored 40+ when he played with Roy and Max in that same position.

 

Their strong production could very well be the result of them getting on the ice against lesser talent (2nd line status), but I wasn't really commenting to their point totals, although their scoring in the last month is a factor. What I saw that gives me optimism is the effort and passion they exhibited in their play. I can't really say I've ever seen passion like that out of say, Vanek. I think that the "get me on the ice, I can win this thing" attitude they displayed is exactly the kind of attitudes you want to collect on your team. The presence of that attittude makes me optimistic that once we get past the old guard things look more promising.

[Ross Rhea]

Historically though, the opposite is true. Wingers' prime is 22-28, goaltenders don't generally even begin their prime until their late 20s. The only winger since the lockout to get 20 goals and 60 points every year from age 28-34 is Iginla...the only winger in NHL history to get 30 goals and 70 points over that span is Gordie Howe. And I don't remember the exact stat offhand, but a stupidly low percentage of wingers have a career best season after 28. I'm not saying Vanek and Pominville are useless, but I certainly don't expect them to get better from here. We've seen their best, and the most we can hope for is that they don't go into steep decline.

 

Well Marty St. Louis did it also, but how did you arrive at the arbitrary 20 goals and 60 points and do it every year since the lockout? I think it was just because it fit your argument. Some guys are better setup men as some are better scorers.

There are plenty of good wingers that have achieved around 20 goals and around 60 points and are somewhere around 30 years old since the lockout. Again how do you arrive at those particular numbers?

As for Pommer and Vanek, we may have seen their best but, i'm not ready to buy into he's pushing 30 years old so their done argument.

[TrueBlueGED]

Well Marty St. Louis did it also, but how did you arrive at the arbitrary 20 goals and 60 points and do it every year since the lockout? I think it was just because it fit your argument. Some guys are better setup men as some are better scorers.

There are plenty of good wingers that have achieved around 20 goals and around 60 points and are somewhere around 30 years old since the lockout. Again how do you arrive at those particular numbers?

As for Pommer and Vanek, we may have seen their best but, i'm not ready to buy into he's pushing 30 years old so their done argument.

 

I actually got the stat during Nash-fest from Neil Greenberg, a columnist for the Washington Post (he's heavily into statistics and advanced metrics). It's obviously not applicable to every player nor is it a perfect stat, but for a goal scorer like Nash (and Vanek) making over $7 million, I think it makes sense. Maybe it seems somewhat arbitrary, but when discussing a winger set to make $7.8 million from age 28-34 (Nash), it's applicable and I don't think asking a guy on that salary to produce 20 goals and 60 points consistently is unreasonable.

 

The general point is that wingers' prime (and this goes for centers too, if you're looking at goal scoring) tends to be mid-20s, that's when you get the most out of them from a raw production standpoint. Does this mean wingers are useless after age 28/30? Absolutely not, they play important roles on contenders every year. I'm not going to go run the numbers, but I'd be really really surprised if you found that wingers' production is better from age 28-24 than from 22-28...I'm sure you'll find some outliers and examples of this, but I'd bet a lot of money the general trend is a steady decline in production.

 

Edit: And for what it's worth, the actual stat that Greenberg used may have been 30 goals and 60 points, which is why St. Louis didn't make the cut. Again, this makes sense for the type of player Nash is and would make sense for other goal scorers...but may make less sense for a guy like St. Louis who is a terrific playmaker and has a more rounded game.

[deluca67]

Considering the level of physical play in this years playoffs, the Sabres are probably glad they missed out this year.

[Taro T]

Considering the level of physical play in this years playoffs, the Sabres are probably glad they missed out this year.

No doubt the teams that missed the dance this year will be healthier come October than those bashing the snot out of each other.

[FogBat]

No doubt the teams that missed the dance this year will be healthier come October than those bashing the snot out of each other.

As long as they don't get hurt during training camp.

[Fire Lindy Ruff NOW]

Considering the level of physical play in this years playoffs, the Sabres are probably glad they missed out this year.

men are men though. if your a real man and some dude just punches you in the face or is being physical in hockey, your gonna get angry and stick up for yourself. thats just the way of science. everyone thinks the sabres are weak but there just skill guys who probly like playing the real game of hockey, not the goon stuff. but come on honestly the sabres are men. and when they get pissed, they step it up. you gotta stop begging for the whole team to be physical because thats just not who they are. there skill guys most of em.

[darksabre]

DeLuca just wants the Sabres to be the hockey equivalent of the Hell's Angels. Which is noble I guess.