Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Those options are not really realistic. Lucic is the last player the Bruins would allow to get away and the Sabres don't have the assets needed to pry away a stud center. There is no silver bullet or magic fix that will turn this team around. The best plan, IMO, is go out and hire the best hockey guys they can find. hand them the keys to the franchise, the check book and a flamethrower. Let the new management team decide who they think they can salvage and do whatever they want with the rest. No sacred cows, no untouchables. I completely agree that there is no way the Bruins will give up Lucic anytime soon. I also agree about the stud center. My point was that those are the type of players the Sabres and most teams really need. I could not agree more with your last points. The Sabres need real "hockey men" running the show more than anything else. Give me Bowman from Chicago, or Shero from Pittsburgh ... does Al Arbour have a son?
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Your last "plan" was to bust the bank on Kovy. Would that have made the Sabres a contender today? No. Who's a stronger contender, New Jersey or the Sabres? After a slow start last season Kovi has been one of the better players in the league. He's playing 24+ minutes a game with 22 goals and 52 points in 49 games. The cap hit of $6.66 mil a year, considering the dead weight the Sabres are carrying, could have easily been fit in. He would have made the Sabres a much better team. I completely agree that there is no way the Bruins will give up Lucic anytime soon. I also agree about the stud center. My point was that those are the type of players the Sabres and most teams really need. I could not agree more with your last points. The Sabres need real "hockey men" running the show more than anything else. Give me Bowman from Chicago, or Shero from Pittsburgh ... does Al Arbour have a son? You mean Bill Torrey.
Eleven Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Who's a stronger contender, New Jersey or the Sabres? After a slow start last season Kovi has been one of the better players in the league. He's playing 24+ minutes a game with 22 goals and 52 points in 49 games. The cap hit of $6.66 mil a year, considering the dead weight the Sabres are carrying, could have easily been fit in. He would have made the Sabres a much better team. No, he wouldn't have. The team already has a starting left wing. The team needs toughness and centers, not another skill & speed guy on the left wing.
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 No, he wouldn't have. The team already has a starting left wing. The team needs toughness and centers, not another skill & speed guy on the left wing. Referring to Kovi as simply a "skill & speed guy in the left wing" is a bit silly. He has proven over the last year that he is far more. He is only a $2.66 and $2.1 mil more of a cap hit than Stafford and Leino. If you could waive Stafford and Leino today and pick up Kovi and save $2.9 mil against the cap, you don't think that would make the Sabres better? It doesn't solve all of the Sabres needs, no one move will, you are kidding yourself if you don't think he would make the Sabres better.
SwampD Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Referring to Kovi as simply a "skill & speed guy in the left wing" is a bit silly. He has proven over the last year that he is far more. He is only a $2.66 and $2.1 mil more of a cap hit than Stafford and Leino. If you could waive Stafford and Leino today and pick up Kovi and save $2.9 mil against the cap, you don't think that would make the Sabres better? It doesn't solve all of the Sabres needs, no one move will, you are kidding yourself if you don't think he would make the Sabres better. There's just no place on the Sabres for a 50 goal scorer.
nfreeman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 The majority of my posts are positive. The best plan, IMO, is go out and hire the best hockey guys they can find. hand them the keys to the franchise, the check book and a flamethrower. Let the new management team decide who they think they can salvage and do whatever they want with the rest. No sacred cows, no untouchables. While your plan may in fact be the correct plan for this franchise, I cannot let the bolded part pass without calling BS. Your last "plan" was to bust the bank on Kovy. Would that have made the Sabres a contender today? No. Who's a stronger contender, New Jersey or the Sabres? After a slow start last season Kovi has been one of the better players in the league. He's playing 24+ minutes a game with 22 goals and 52 points in 49 games. The cap hit of $6.66 mil a year, considering the dead weight the Sabres are carrying, could have easily been fit in. He would have made the Sabres a much better team. While NJ has had a better season than the Sabres, they are by no stretch of the imagination "a contender" and their team is not in better shape than the Sabres. The number of playoff series NJ wins this year will be equal to or lesser than the number of playoff series the Sabres win. NJ also missed the playoffs last year -- their first full year with Kovy. Most importantly, they are highly likely to lose their best player, Parise, as a UFA this year because they spent too much on Kovy. Bottom line is that they broke the bank on Kovy and he's "put up numbers" for them periodically while "elevating" the franchise to the same heights he elevated the Thrashers, who never won a single playoff GAME while he was there and are currently a deceased organization. Clinging to your position on Kovy is disturbingly reminiscent of the positions you've clung to on Roy and Briere -- all of which can fairly be described as detached from reality.
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 While your plan may in fact be the correct plan for this franchise, I cannot let the bolded part pass without calling BS. While NJ has had a better season than the Sabres, they are by no stretch of the imagination "a contender" and their team is not in better shape than the Sabres. The number of playoff series NJ wins this year will be equal to or lesser than the number of playoff series the Sabres win. NJ also missed the playoffs last year -- their first full year with Kovy. Most importantly, they are highly likely to lose their best player, Parise, as a UFA this year because they spent too much on Kovy. Bottom line is that they broke the bank on Kovy and he's "put up numbers" for them periodically while "elevating" the franchise to the same heights he elevated the Thrashers, who never won a single playoff GAME while he was there and are currently a deceased organization. Clinging to your position on Kovy is disturbingly reminiscent of the positions you've clung to on Roy and Briere -- all of which can fairly be described as detached from reality. Maybe you are so far off because "your bottom line" is so far. They didn't "break the bank" with Kovy, his cap hit is less than Vanek's and only $400K more than Miller's. To say they will lose Parise because of the Kovy contract is hilarious. They are currently $26 mil under the Cap for next season, and that is with paying Elias $6 mil. Only here can adding a player that makes Thomas Vanek the second most talented goal scorer on the roster be a bad thing. :doh:
LTS Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 The majority of my posts are positive. It's your perspective that is negative. I consider the idea of changes that bring this franchise closer to winning a Stanley Cup extremely positive. It is when the idea involves "fan favorites" the post is considered "negative." Example, I was considered "negative" because I knew signing Drew Stafford in the off-season was a huge mistake. Since Stafford has been nice enough to prove me right and he has fallen out of favor with the "fans" any anti-Stafford post I were to write today would end up being a +10. People love honest opinions unless it's about "their guy." Posters want to make out to be a personal agenda or about the poster when in fact it is nothing more than an observation based on performance. Regier - 15 years worth of performance. Ruff - 15 years worth if performance. Miller - 433 games worth of performance. Stafford - 368 games worth of performance. That is more than enough data to formulate a strong opinion. Which I, and many others have. "It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business." The "business" of wining a Stanley Cup. Those options are not really realistic. Lucic is the last player the Bruins would allow to get away and the Sabres don't have the assets needed to pry away a stud center. There is no silver bullet or magic fix that will turn this team around. The best plan, IMO, is go out and hire the best hockey guys they can find. hand them the keys to the franchise, the check book and a flamethrower. Let the new management team decide who they think they can salvage and do whatever they want with the rest. No sacred cows, no untouchables. You're doing a great job at pointing out problems. What you are not doing is pointing out solutions. Go out and hire the best hockey guys they can find? Who are they? Who do you think they can go hire? How do you know who the best hockey guys are? Every team in the league is trying to do this, every year. They all want the best hockey guys and each year one of them suffers. Last year everyone thought the Lightning were amazing, where are they now? So Yzerman is not the best hockey guy? A few years back the Bruins were the cellar-dwellars.. does that make Chiarelli an idiot? Burke is in Toronto and even with all the moves he's made his team is only 8th in the conference. Who has the golden formula for building the winning franchise? You can change parts, you can't change an entire roster overnight. It's not possible unless you give up your players for nothing. If you do that then you get nothing. Could you trade Stafford for a 5th round pick? Probably. How does that help the Sabres? You have to get a player from somewhere. If these players are good they have to be RFA or UFA's and you have to offer them a good deal of money. If they are that good then the odds of signing them get even slimmer. Referring to Kovi as simply a "skill & speed guy in the left wing" is a bit silly. He has proven over the last year that he is far more. He is only a $2.66 and $2.1 mil more of a cap hit than Stafford and Leino. If you could waive Stafford and Leino today and pick up Kovi and save $2.9 mil against the cap, you don't think that would make the Sabres better? It doesn't solve all of the Sabres needs, no one move will, you are kidding yourself if you don't think he would make the Sabres better. So Kovi is an interesting signing... because of his contract the Devils are now struggling to keep Parise. Who's next? One guy, so much money, is usually a death knell to a club unless he's overwhelmingly amazing and I don't put him in that category. He's $2.66 of a cap hit more than Stafford. That $2.66 is your 3rd line winger or perhaps your second. That $2.66 is the depth of your roster so if something happens you are putting out even less skilled guys. It looks better when comparing straight up but money you assign one roster spot is money that is NOT assigned somewhere else. Sure he makes the team better, in one area, and he impacts the team in another. He still disappears in games, he's still a defensive liability. People like to act as though making a change in one place doesn't impact every other place. It doesn't work that way. We watched the Rangers rack up high priced UFAs and yet continually lose. So.. again.. what's your plan, other than replace everything? How long are you willing to accept losing? Who do you try and get rid of and what do you expect in return? Then, with what you think you can get in return what kind of player do you think you can sign or draft? That's what I want to know..
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 You're doing a great job at pointing out problems. What you are not doing is pointing out solutions. Go out and hire the best hockey guys they can find? Who are they? Who do you think they can go hire? How do you know who the best hockey guys are? Every team in the league is trying to do this, every year. They all want the best hockey guys and each year one of them suffers. Last year everyone thought the Lightning were amazing, where are they now? So Yzerman is not the best hockey guy? A few years back the Bruins were the cellar-dwellars.. does that make Chiarelli an idiot? Burke is in Toronto and even with all the moves he's made his team is only 8th in the conference. Who has the golden formula for building the winning franchise? You can change parts, you can't change an entire roster overnight. It's not possible unless you give up your players for nothing. If you do that then you get nothing. Could you trade Stafford for a 5th round pick? Probably. How does that help the Sabres? You have to get a player from somewhere. If these players are good they have to be RFA or UFA's and you have to offer them a good deal of money. If they are that good then the odds of signing them get even slimmer. So Kovi is an interesting signing... because of his contract the Devils are now struggling to keep Parise. Who's next? One guy, so much money, is usually a death knell to a club unless he's overwhelmingly amazing and I don't put him in that category. He's $2.66 of a cap hit more than Stafford. That $2.66 is your 3rd line winger or perhaps your second. That $2.66 is the depth of your roster so if something happens you are putting out even less skilled guys. It looks better when comparing straight up but money you assign one roster spot is money that is NOT assigned somewhere else. Sure he makes the team better, in one area, and he impacts the team in another. He still disappears in games, he's still a defensive liability. People like to act as though making a change in one place doesn't impact every other place. It doesn't work that way. We watched the Rangers rack up high priced UFAs and yet continually lose. So.. again.. what's your plan, other than replace everything? How long are you willing to accept losing? Who do you try and get rid of and what do you expect in return? Then, with what you think you can get in return what kind of player do you think you can sign or draft? That's what I want to know.. An opinion based upon a falsehood. As I said, if they had signed Kovy and not signed Stafford and Leino they would have enough money to add another player who would likely be better than Stafford and Leino. As far as a plan, If you want to go through 6+ years of posts go ahead.
Eleven Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Referring to Kovi as simply a "skill & speed guy in the left wing" is a bit silly. He has proven over the last year that he is far more. He is only a $2.66 and $2.1 mil more of a cap hit than Stafford and Leino. If you could waive Stafford and Leino today and pick up Kovi and save $2.9 mil against the cap, you don't think that would make the Sabres better? It doesn't solve all of the Sabres needs, no one move will, you are kidding yourself if you don't think he would make the Sabres better. Moving Stafford and Leino for Kovi is different than simply adding Kovi and his salary, which is what you wanted at the time. And it's tantamount to saying that NJ would rather have Vanek and his salary than Zubrus and Clarkson, which I'm sure they would. It's completely unrealistic, and it's certainly no "plan."
nfreeman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Maybe you are so far off because "your bottom line" is so far. They didn't "break the bank" with Kovy, his cap hit is less than Vanek's and only $400K more than Miller's. To say they will lose Parise because of the Kovy contract is hilarious. They are currently $26 mil under the Cap for next season, and that is with paying Elias $6 mil. Only here can adding a player that makes Thomas Vanek the second most talented goal scorer on the roster be a bad thing. :doh: No. The cap hit isn't the issue with NJ, and it isn't the reason they are going to lose Parise. It's the actual cash. NJ as a franchise is hemmorhaging money and in danger of bankruptcy -- and they're on the hook for over $11MM per year in cash to Kovy for the next 6 years. That's why they won't be able to afford Parise -- and that's why giving Kovy that contract was a terrible decision. I don't expect the Devils to move, but it certainly could happen. The franchise is not economically viable under its current conditions. And that would be 2 franchises that Kovy has killed off.
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Moving Stafford and Leino for Kovi is different than simply adding Kovi and his salary, which is what you wanted at the time. And it's tantamount to saying that NJ would rather have Vanek and his salary than Zubrus and Clarkson, which I'm sure they would. It's completely unrealistic, and it's certainly no "plan." It was one extremely viable aspect of making this team better. It's unrealistic now, it wasn't then. It was a missed opportunity. The point was that the Kovy contract is crippling the Devils and would have crippled the Sabres. I simply pointed out, with the help of Stafford and Leino, that the contract of two hack wingers is more damaging. No. The cap hit isn't the issue with NJ, and it isn't the reason they are going to lose Parise. It's the actual cash. NJ as a franchise is hemmorhaging money and in danger of bankruptcy -- and they're on the hook for over $11MM per year in cash to Kovy for the next 6 years. That's why they won't be able to afford Parise -- and that's why giving Kovy that contract was a terrible decision. I don't expect the Devils to move, but it certainly could happen. The franchise is not economically viable under its current conditions. And that would be 2 franchises that Kovy has killed off. It's Kovy's fault that the Devils have the 5th smallest building in the NHL and they can't get close to filling it? They are running a professional sports team and averaging 85.7% capacity at home. That's on the fans and the market, not Kovy or his contract.
TrueBlueGED Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 On Kovalchuk: the signing might actually cost them Parise. As nfreeman points out, the actual cash matters to the Devils. Also, Parise wants to be somewhere where he's "the man" and that clearly isn't New Jersey. In order to accommodate Kovy, they moved Parise over the RW and gets less ice time despite being the superior player. Kovalchuk's cap hit isn't unreasonable in any fashion, but for THAT franchise, it may well have been one of the worst decisions in the history of free agency. Secondly, stripping the place to the ground and rebuilding is a complete crapshoot. I know everyone points to Pittsburgh, but they hit the lottery with a few of the best players to come out in the past 2 decades...not everyone is that lucky. Islanders, Oilers, Blue Jackets, have all bottomed out for awhile, but they're no closer to competing for a Cup than the Sabres are. Even with elite, and potentially elite, players like Tavares, Nugent-Hopkins, Eberle, Nash and so on, they're STILL bottom feeders. I would LOVE some elite talent like that and from an objective standpoint believe that a top 5 pick this year would do wonders for the team, but to insinuate that a complete rebuild is the only way to make this team compete for a Cup, simply is false. And a complete rebuild is certainly no guarantee. And frankly, I'm not sure anybody advocating a complete rebuild will actually have the patience for 4 years of TERRIBLE hockey while the young guns figure out what in the world they're doing. November-end of January this year? That's what we'd get every single night for at least 3 seasons. Maybe it would be more palatable if there was hope for huge upside...but at what point does it become "we've been rebuilding for 3 years, can we finally just win something?" The Islanders don't exactly have a rabid fan base despite some truly exciting young talent. That said, I still think we should be sellers this year, but sellers doesn't have to mean fire sale. Move out Boyes, Gaustad, Leopold Roy and/or Stafford (or wait until the draft depending on the offers at the deadline) and try to free up cap space so making moves and signing free agents is easier in the future. Don't think anybody would disagree that it's easier to make moves if you aren't back up right to the cap. I believe the core can be shaken up, the dead weight shed, and some value added through moves such that the Sabres can improve and be a contender without blowing it up completely. edit: As to the bolded, as clarified below, I remember reading an article on ESPN which quoted Parise's agent, essentially saying he wanted to be the go-to guy on any team he signs with. I can't find a link to the specific article (beyond NY Post speculation), so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.
shrader Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 There's just no place on the Sabres for a 50 goal scorer. How many years does it take for a guy to lose that label? He's at 4 and counting now, the same exact time frame we could use to call Brad Boyes a 40 goal scorer (and don't for one second think I'm comparing those two).
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 How many years does it take for a guy to lose that label? He's at 4 and counting now, the same exact time frame we could use to call Brad Boyes a 40 goal scorer (and don't for one second think I'm comparing those two). Considering the point where Boyes is right now, it would be incorrect to call Boyes a "goal scorer" let alone a "40 goal scorer."
shrader Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Considering the point where Boyes is right now, it would be incorrect to call Boyes a "goal scorer" let alone a "40 goal scorer." Hey, if they score one, you can technically call them a goal scorer. :lol:
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Hey, if they score one, you can technically call them a goal scorer. :lol: This is sad, I had to check NHL.com just to see if Boyes had scored this year. :doh:
Who Else? Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 This is sad, I had to check NHL.com just to see if Boyes had scored this year. :doh: Yeah and when he did Robittaille was all over him, like McGuire on Lucic & Chara, Saying it was a goal scores goal and how the puck find great scorers like him. That was probably in early November.
shrader Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 This is sad, I had to check NHL.com just to see if Boyes had scored this year. :doh: Clutch in the shootout. He's the new Kotalik.
nfreeman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 It's Kovy's fault that the Devils have the 5th smallest building in the NHL and they can't get close to filling it? They are running a professional sports team and averaging 85.7% capacity at home. That's on the fans and the market, not Kovy or his contract. It's certainly not Kovy's fault, or any athlete's fault, for getting what he could get. It's the Devils' fault for putting way too many Kovy eggs in a small, flimsy basket. But the fact remains that trading for Kovy and giving him that contract was a terrible decision by NJ. Also, Parise wants to be somewhere where he's "the man" and that clearly isn't New Jersey. In order to accommodate Kovy, they moved Parise over the RW and gets less ice time despite being the superior player. Kovalchuk's cap hit isn't unreasonable in any fashion, but for THAT franchise, it may well have been one of the worst decisions in the history of free agency. What is this based on? Link? Any support whatsoever for this theory? I don't agree with this at all -- this isn't the kind of player Parise is. As I mentioned above, I agree that the Kovy trade and contract were a terrible move by NJ, but the reason they are going to lose Parise is financial, not because of Parise's ego.
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 It's certainly not Kovy's fault, or any athlete's fault, for getting what he could get. It's the Devils' fault for putting way too many Kovy eggs in a small, flimsy basket. But the fact remains that trading for Kovy and giving him that contract was a terrible decision by NJ. What is this based on? Link? Any support whatsoever for this theory? I don't agree with this at all -- this isn't the kind of player Parise is. As I mentioned above, I agree that the Kovy trade and contract were a terrible move by NJ, but the reason they are going to lose Parise is financial, not because of Parise's ego. He is 9 goals shy of 400 goals in 10 years. He career low is his first season, 29, when he only played 65 games. They paid a premium for goal scoring. I can't honestly say any athlete is worth the money he got, no athlete is. He is a premiere goal scorer and after a rough start he is producing goals. He is currently 15th in the NHL in points. IF you are going to put "eggs in a basket", a guy averaging 40 a year for 10 years is a pretty solid basket. I do not believe that you honestly think that the Sabres couldn't have used 63 goals and 139 points from Kovy over the 157 games he has played for the Devils. The guy is playing PP and PK minutes. He is on the ice and making a difference. He is averaging 7 1/2 more minutes per game than Vanek.
TrueBlueGED Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 What is this based on? Link? Any support whatsoever for this theory? I don't agree with this at all -- this isn't the kind of player Parise is. As I mentioned above, I agree that the Kovy trade and contract were a terrible move by NJ, but the reason they are going to lose Parise is financial, not because of Parise's ego. There was a story on ESPN about it awhile back. It was his agent discussing Parise's desires. #1 was to win a Stanley Cup, #2 was to be the man. I'll try and find a link for it. Edit: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/devils/parise_huddles_with_reps_Xp9pKAIRPmpAHc5n4PDzLI?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME= That's the best I could find, which is more speculation than information. I'm positive I read an article on ESPN with quotes from Parise's agent about not wanting to play second fiddle to another LW. However, seeing as I cannot find that specific article, I will rescind my comment on it.
Weave Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 He is 9 goals shy of 400 goals in 10 years. He career low is his first season, 29, when he only played 65 games. They paid a premium for goal scoring. I can't honestly say any athlete is worth the money he got, no athlete is. He is a premiere goal scorer and after a rough start he is producing goals. He is currently 15th in the NHL in points. IF you are going to put "eggs in a basket", a guy averaging 40 a year for 10 years is a pretty solid basket. I do not believe that you honestly think that the Sabres couldn't have used 63 goals and 139 points from Kovy over the 157 games he has played for the Devils. The guy is playing PP and PK minutes. He is on the ice and making a difference. He is averaging 7 1/2 more minutes per game than Vanek. I would take Kovie over any forward on the Sabres.
nfreeman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 He is 9 goals shy of 400 goals in 10 years. He career low is his first season, 29, when he only played 65 games. They paid a premium for goal scoring. I can't honestly say any athlete is worth the money he got, no athlete is. He is a premiere goal scorer and after a rough start he is producing goals. He is currently 15th in the NHL in points. IF you are going to put "eggs in a basket", a guy averaging 40 a year for 10 years is a pretty solid basket. I do not believe that you honestly think that the Sabres couldn't have used 63 goals and 139 points from Kovy over the 157 games he has played for the Devils. The guy is playing PP and PK minutes. He is on the ice and making a difference. He is averaging 7 1/2 more minutes per game than Vanek. He's a better player than Vanek, and by more than a little. My issue is not his skills, it's his contract and whether it made sense for NJ. IMHO it does not and has hurt and will continue to hurt their team more than it helps. If the Sabres could have gotten him for $8MM per year for 2 years? I would do that in a heartbeat. But I would not want the Sabres to have commited to making Kovy their highest-paid player for the next 10 years. He's a weapon, not a cornerstone.
deluca67 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 I would take Kovie over any forward on the Sabres. If Kovy were hitting free agency this season, and you knew the contract it would take, are there many fans that wouldn't be begging for Kovy considering Pegula's deep pockets. He's a better player than Vanek, and by more than a little. My issue is not his skills, it's his contract and whether it made sense for NJ. IMHO it does not and has hurt and will continue to hurt their team more than it helps. If the Sabres could have gotten him for $8MM per year for 2 years? I would do that in a heartbeat. But I would not want the Sabres to have commited to making Kovy their highest-paid player for the next 10 years. He's a weapon, not a cornerstone. He's never going to see the end of the contract.
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