nfreeman Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Shea Weber 46 Games 102 Hits Myers, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Gragnani, Sekera .....5 of top 6 defensemen.......... 197 Games 131 Hits Ryan Callahan 47 Games 171 Hits Vanek, Pominville, Roy, Stafford, Hecht, Ennis, Lieno, Boyes, Adam.......your top 9 forwards...... 353 Games 197 Hits I see what I see......I know what I know......People tell me what they tell me....... I don't think anyone thinks the Sabres are physical enough. This particular discussion (which I've had enough of and am about to bail on) is on whether this is Lindy's doing or more relates to the makeup of the players you mentioned. Personally, I look at the names you listed and immediately think "of course none of those defensemen hits like Shea Weber" and "of course none of those forwards hits like Callahan." I also don't see how anyone can look at those names and think "if only Lindy hadn't turned them into pussycats, those guys would be brutish marauders" -- but maybe I'm missing something.
TheChimp Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Well, Drane, I may just be a domesticated ape, but I know what I been watching the last few years and it's disjointed and discombobulated and just plain bad hockey, and the least they can do is get mad about it but they can't even do that. And the one constant is Lindy Ruff. He helped pick 'em, he coaches 'em, and they suck at their jobs and play like they don't care all that much that they suck at their jobs.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Shea Weber 46 Games 102 Hits Myers, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Gragnani, Sekera .....5 of top 6 defensemen.......... 197 Games 131 Hits Ryan Callahan 47 Games 171 Hits Vanek, Pominville, Roy, Stafford, Hecht, Ennis, Lieno, Boyes, Adam.......your top 9 forwards...... 353 Games 197 Hits I see what I see......I know what I know......People tell me what they tell me....... The point I was making is that even the physical guys don't lay people out every single game. Weber averages 2 real hits a game (unless you can somehow define for me a fractional hit :P ), but I'm pretty sure he has more opportunities per game to lay guys out than he actually takes. He's physical, rugged, yet still manages to play a sound positional game. To avoid quoting a bunch of different posts, I'll just say I largely agree with nfreeman: Ruff's coaching isn't turning these guys into pussycats, they just happen to be pussycats. I don't think the Sabres have a collection of players that don't belong in the league, I think it's just brutally bad that they're all on the same team. Individually I don't think any of the players don't belong in the NHL because they don't hit....but having them all together has clearly had very negative consequences. Ruff deserves full blame for whatever role he has in the assembly of the roster writ large (however much it may be), because the mix is bad, and the team is way too soft collectively to be a true Cup contender. But I don't think it's his coaching which makes the team soft (this isn't to say he doesn't have too short of a leash with young players, or may be guilty of over-coaching at times). Having finesse players isn't a bad thing, and all the great teams have them...having a roster full of them with only a few rugged guys is the problem. You mentioned Callahan who I love as a player, but a team full of him won't be much more (if any) successful than a team of Pominvilles. Different, sure. Better? Unlikely. The Rangers aren't top in the conference this year because they have a team full of Callahans....they're there because for every Callahan they have a Gaborik.
Eleven Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 The point I was making is that even the physical guys don't lay people out every single game. Weber averages 2 real hits a game (unless you can somehow define for me a fractional hit :P ), but I'm pretty sure he has more opportunities per game to lay guys out than he actually takes. He's physical, rugged, yet still manages to play a sound positional game. To avoid quoting a bunch of different posts, I'll just say I largely agree with nfreeman: Ruff's coaching isn't turning these guys into pussycats, they just happen to be pussycats. I don't think the Sabres have a collection of players that don't belong in the league, I think it's just brutally bad that they're all on the same team. Individually I don't think any of the players don't belong in the NHL because they don't hit....but having them all together has clearly had very negative consequences. Ruff deserves full blame for whatever role he has in the assembly of the roster writ large (however much it may be), because the mix is bad, and the team is way too soft collectively to be a true Cup contender. But I don't think it's his coaching which makes the team soft (this isn't to say he doesn't have too short of a leash with young players, or may be guilty of over-coaching at times). Having finesse players isn't a bad thing, and all the great teams have them...having a roster full of them with only a few rugged guys is the problem. You mentioned Callahan who I love as a player, but a team full of him won't be much more (if any) successful than a team of Pominvilles. Different, sure. Better? Unlikely. The Rangers aren't top in the conference this year because they have a team full of Callahans....they're there because for every Callahan they have a Gaborik. Very well stated.
TheChimp Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Very well stated. I agree. It was. And who helped Darcy create this roster?
Eleven Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 I agree. It was. And who helped Darcy create this roster? I don't know, but Ruff doesn't have quite as much sway as you might think. For example, and it's one hell of an example, Ruff really wanted to keep Briere. I know, not a tough guy. But it was Regier who didn't stand up to Quinn, not Ruff.
TheChimp Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 I don't know, but Ruff doesn't have quite as much sway as you might think. For example, and it's one hell of an example, Ruff really wanted to keep Briere. I know, not a tough guy. But it was Regier who didn't stand up to Quinn, not Ruff. Wait you just praised his post and he said it right there. LINDY helped put this roster together, he has obviously had a say in which players have been brought here, who have gotten new contracts, and so no matter how you slice it, it's his responsibility how they behave out there, whether it's already who they are or it's how they become after a while under him, makes no difference.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 I agree. It was. And who helped Darcy create this roster? I agree...in no way, shape or form do I want Ruff off the hook for his role in the overall roster. None of us know exactly how much influence he has, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree it's more than 0% but less than 100%. Whatever the actual percentage is, he deserves full blame for, and if it's large enough, would be grounds for termination. Not sure if I've made the point on this forum, or if it was merely talking with friends during a game, but anyway....I think the biggest problem with the Ruff/Regier regime isn't necessarily they're both incompetent, it's that they're too similar. They see the same problems, the same solutions, value the exact same thing in players, etc. There is no creative tension (that we know of) between the two. Tension can breed excellence if it results in fresh ideas being tossed around...and I just don't think the Sabres have this tension. I don't want my coach and GM to hate each other, but I don't want them to be practically identical in philosophy either...they can be compatible without being twins. I think it's highly likely that Ruff needs to recharge his batteries, and some time away may be very beneficial for him as a coach in terms of perspective. But in an alternate universe, I think he could be a better coach if he just had a different set of eyes overseeing hockey operations.
Eleven Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Wait you just praised his post and he said it right there. LINDY helped put this roster together, he has obviously had a say in which players have been brought here, who have gotten new contracts, and so no matter how you slice it, it's his responsibility how they behave out there, whether it's already who they are or it's how they become after a while under him, makes no difference. Ok, let's not twist ###### around. This is what he wrote: "Ruff deserves full blame for whatever role he has in the assembly of the roster writ large (however much it may be)" Note the bold part. What I'm saying is that it isn't as much as you might think. At no point did TBPhD say that Lindy helps to put together the roster. At no point did I agree with such a statement. I do believe he has a say. I know that it isn't as much as I would hope, as evidenced by the Briere situation.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 I do believe he has a say. I know that it isn't as much as I would hope, as evidenced by the Briere situation. How much say he has really is the million dollar question, to which none of us know. I certainly don't think it's as simple as Ruff wants a guy and they go out and get him. But I also doubt that Regier will force him to coach a player he's 100% against (for example, I doubt if he went to management and told them last year that Stafford was a complete slacker who only played for a contract and that he didn't want him back at all, that management would then proceed to give him a 4 year deal regardless). Obviously this is purely conjecture, but based on the apparently good working relationship between Ruff and Regier, my best guess would be that Ruff's roster influence is more in the form of veto power than anything related to acquisitions/contracts.
X. Benedict Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 The toughness thing is way overstated. Toughness is way more than hits. The anemic scoring has been the problem. Score early and often and all other problems go away.
deluca67 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 The toughness thing is way overstated. Toughness is way more than hits. The anemic scoring has been the problem. Score early and often and all other problems go away. Other than hits, what signs of toughness do the Sabres exemplify.
Who Else? Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Posted January 31, 2012 The toughness thing is way overstated. Toughness is way more than hits. The anemic scoring has been the problem. Score early and often and all other problems go away. Toughness is overstated. A team needs to be hard to play against. You have to make the other team not want to play against you. Boston and Anaheim were hard to play against because of their toughness. Detroit because of their puck possesion and patience. Pittsburgh because of their pure skill on the top lines and absolute dogged forecheck with the 3rd and forth Vancouver's skill will make any team look stupid. New Jersey's Frustrating trap a a few years ago. Sabres are not and will not be a physically intidating team for this or next season with the roster and feasible moves. They have to find a way for teams not to want to play them. Go thru a list of Eastern teams and think would I rather play them or the Sabres.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 While I am enjoying the back and forth concerning Ruff and / or Regier ... for the record I do not think Ruff does not like toughness, but I do believe that he is coaching / has coached the few tough guys we have to refine that element of their game almost out of existance, but ... To try to follow Knightrider's advise to try to stay on topic ... I think DR is looking to deal, but my fear is that he won't in a very meaningful way.
shrader Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Shea Weber 46 Games 102 Hits Myers, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Gragnani, Sekera .....5 of top 6 defensemen.......... 197 Games 131 Hits Just out of curiousity, since you left out one specific blue liner for the Sabres, what do the other 5 for Nashville offer in terms of hitting stats?
spndnchz Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Just out of curiousity, since you left out one specific blue liner for the Sabres, what do the other 5 for Nashville offer in terms of hitting stats? About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics.
SwampD Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. Yeah, but what are their Corsi numbers?
Samson's Flow Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. So we're uh... not soft? That's what I suspected when he originally posted that with Weber (elite of the elite dman) versus our entire D minus Regher. Then again our problem has been puck possession and scoring in the opponent's end, not our D.
shrader Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. Wow, I wasn't expecting anything like that. That's the problem when you try to cherry pick results.
LastPommerFan Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. This post is excellence on a extreme level.
Patty16 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Ah yes the classic cherry picking of numbers to prove a worthless point. Hits are incredibly subjective. Try keeping track for one game in the leisure of your home and then compare to the so called official number. Very very subjective. As many posters have said, hits do not prove a team is tough. Some people in Buffalo cannot let go of the blue collar mentality that our sports teams woes would evaporate if we can acquire mean players to bash the other team over the head. If Luongo hadnt crapped the bed last year, the soft skilled team led by some damn Swedes of all people would have won the Cup. Wasnt about physcial-ness.
deluca67 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. Nashville is 28th in the league in hits (899) and the Sabres are 29th (883). Regier leads the Sabres D with 111 hits. The next two are rookies in Weber (60) and McNabb (42) who have played 23 and 20 games respectively. The point that the other "top 5" defensemen only have a total of 131 is extremely telling to a point of being pathetic, especially considering two rookies who have player 43 games have 102.
That Aud Smell Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 About 200 more. Buffalo 241 games from 7 D. 332 hits, average hits per game 1.38 Nashville 277 games from 7D. 327 hits, average hits per game 1.18 Ah, statistics. comparing hit stats from team to team is fairly useless. i've read multiple comments in the twittersphere (harrington comes to mind) to the effect that "the scorekeeper for {team's} home games is notoriously generous in counting hits" (this was from a game where the sabres and another similarly-styled team had racked up a monstrous total of "hits"). i have also seen tweets that are a 180 of that same point -- "scorekeeper at such and such arena under-counts hits." as someone on this board has observed, the utility to the stat more resides in looking at hits across a given team's roster.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Nashville is 5th in the West, 3 points out of 1st. Don't think those extra 16 hits are why they're so far ahead of the Sabres in the standings. On topic: I still don't expect any major moves to be made before the draft. Trading Roy/Stafford for NHL-ready top-6 prospects and a pick or two would be great, but I don't think Regier has the stones to pull it, unless he gets a swift kick in the behind from ownership. Boyes/Gaustad/Leopold maybe get moved, but I'm not expecting anything more. Aim low and never be disappointed!
LGR4GM Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Ah yes the classic cherry picking of numbers to prove a worthless point. Hits are incredibly subjective. Try keeping track for one game in the leisure of your home and then compare to the so called official number. Very very subjective. As many posters have said, hits do not prove a team is tough. Some people in Buffalo cannot let go of the blue collar mentality that our sports teams woes would evaporate if we can acquire mean players to bash the other team over the head. If Luongo hadnt crapped the bed last year, the soft skilled team led by some damn Swedes of all people would have won the Cup. Wasnt about physcial-ness. actually what chz post I think shows is that our defense is good but our offense sucks to such a degree that everything else is superfluous including our goaltending. Someone find the average for time spent in the defensive zone versus the offensive zone and we will see if that theory holds any water.
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