darksabre Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Not sure what you're getting at. The point I was making is that it's pretty ridiculous to think that Ruff coaches his players to not stand up for one another. Just to counter that, he doesn't seem to coach them to do the opposite. He seems convinced that he doesn't need to promote it or disapprove of it. He simply expects them to do it on their own if they feel like it. It's the absence of an MO from Ruff that has many judging his views on toughness.
K-9 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Does anyone here remember Ruff from his playing days? With the exception of a couple players, nobody on the current squad plays the game like he did. I can't believe his coaching philosophy would be that radically different than his playing philosophy. GO SABRES!!!
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Not sure what you're getting at. The point I was making is that it's pretty ridiculous to think that Ruff coaches his players to not stand up for one another. Well looks like you were not being sarcastic. Anyway, my point is that I simply think that Ruff coaches the toughness out of his players. The proof, in my mind, is Gaustad, Kaleta and now Kassian. They all are not playing the same game as when they came into the organization. GoDD had posted a video a while ago and then re-introduced it in another thread (can't remember where it was posted initially and then re-posted, but we were discussing this very topic) that was from the development camp I think. Everyone keyed on the fact that the video showed Ruff giving a few taps on Adam's helmet. What I took from the video and I posted this, was that it showed Ruff coaching Kassian how not to get a penalty in the NHL ... as a result, in my mind, Kassian has not been the same player since he first came into the organization. My feeling is that Ruff is coaching the toughness out of him, like he did Gaustad. I would also argue that Kaleta is not the same player as he was initially as well. I really do not think that Ruff coaches his players not to stick up for one another, but the proof is there that they do not. One cannot deny that on that fateful night against the Bruins NO ONE STUCK UP FOR MILLER. No one is accountable.
deluca67 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Ok. Recently, Ruff has publicly lamented that Kaleta's toughness is restrained by bad officiating. Ruff hates toughness. Talking about a player being singled out by officials and a team meeting? My mistake, he is obviously a modern day Fred Shero. :doh: Not sure what you're getting at. The point I was making is that it's pretty ridiculous to think that Ruff coaches his players to not stand up for one another. If they are not being coached that way, why don't they stand up for one another? Did anyone else here hear the blurb on the WGR post game a week or so ago about Kassian? Apparently he was being called out by the OK City bench and refused to fight, when asked about if he was told not to fight he ended the interview. Here is the link from WGR. I don't remember this being brought up before. the "you aren't the coach" line seems a bit telling. http://wgr550.com/Ka...hester/12052416
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Talking about a player being singled out by officials and a team meeting? My mistake, he is obviously a modern day Fred Shero. :doh: If they are not being coached that way, why don't they stand up for one anther? Did anyone else here the blurb on the WGR post game a week or so ago about Kassian? Apparently he was being called out by the OK City bench and refused to fight, when asked about if he was told not to fight he ended the interview. Here is the link from WGR. I don't remember this being brought up before. the "you aren't the coach" line seems a bit telling. http://wgr550.com/Ka...hester/12052416 Thanks for the link ... Yet more proof. EDIT: Reading some of the comments posted to that article on GR ... some have drunk the kool aid, but seems that others have not.
deluca67 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Thanks for the link ... Yet more proof. I'm not sure if it qualifies as proof of anything. It does cause me concern that such a great raw physical talent like Kassian is going to end up another Gaustad.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 I'm not sure if it qualifies as proof of anything. It does cause me concern that such a great raw physical talent like Kassian is going to end up another Gaustad. OK. You're right. Would evidence be a better term?
deluca67 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 OK. You're right. Would evidence be a better term? Kassian's quote is one more piece of evidence in a growing case. The problem is that Pegula is like a member of the OJ jury, I doubt the evidence really matters to him since his mind seems already made up.
darksabre Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 I'm not sure if it qualifies as proof of anything. It does cause me concern that such a great raw physical talent like Kassian is going to end up another Gaustad. Citing Gaustad is interesting. I think Paul is as much a product of Lindy as he is Darcy. He came in as a 4th liner and he played like one. Then he was allowed to excell at the top of the roster and his role changed. He wasn't fit to the role of a points getter, but he adapted his game to fill that role. Now he's confused. He bounces between top lines and bottom lines and doesn't know his role. Kassian needs to find his role and stick with it.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Citing Gaustad is interesting. I think Paul is as much a product of Lindy as he is Darcy. He came in as a 4th liner and he played like one. Then he was allowed to excell at the top of the roster and his role changed. He wasn't fit to the role of a points getter, but he adapted his game to fill that role. Now he's confused. He bounces between top lines and bottom lines and doesn't know his role. Kassian needs to find his role and stick with it. He isn't the only one confused. I'm sorry, but I am confused by the underlined and bolded part of your post.
darksabre Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 He isn't the only one confused. I'm sorry, but I am confused by the underlined and bolded part of your post. He has seen time on the second line, especially during the playoff years when he was winning faceoffs like a machine. This team thought he could bring offense after a career year in 07/08. But that's not the player he is. He should never see time above the 3rd line, similar to this year where he has looked better at times playing down the depth chart. It needs to stay that way.
radiomike Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I'm not sure if it qualifies as proof of anything. It does cause me concern that such a great raw physical talent like Kassian is going to end up another Gaustad. I went to the game the night after he allegedly got called out by the OKC bench and provided that memorable quote, and did so expecting a statement game from Kassian to prove doubters wrong. I saw very little urgency, maybe made 1 or 2 regular checks and had a breakaway chance. Foligno was 5X as physical and was flying around all over the place. Perhaps Kassian is so bent on refining his game to take the next step that he foregoes the other half of his game.
K-9 Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I went to the game the night after he allegedly got called out by the OKC bench and provided that memorable quote, and did so expecting a statement game from Kassian to prove doubters wrong. I saw very little urgency, maybe made 1 or 2 regular checks and had a breakaway chance. Foligno was 5X as physical and was flying around all over the place. Perhaps Kassian is so bent on refining his game to take the next step that he foregoes the other half of his game. Begs the question, why hasn't Lindy coached the toughness out of Foligno then? I think you make a good point about Kassian's need to refine his game. GO SABRES!!!
TrueBlueGED Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I think people are reading what they want into Kassian's comment...it never struck me as "I don't fight/hit because the coach told me not to, I just don't want to say it in public"......it struck me more as "You're not the coach, I don't have to answer to you for how I play." Personally I've felt that Kassian has been snake-bit since his last suspension, since he hasn't been the same guy. Gaustad I don't think has been the same since his injuries a few years ago. It was like he got hurt a bunch of times and started playing less physical to preserve himself. Kaleta simply can't play the way he used to...he has a reputation now, and doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from refs. In general I agree with d4rk, Ruff simply expects his guys to go out and be hockey players. Standing up for teammates, especially in hockey, is something that's ingrained from youth. If that has to be coached into players, I think that says a lot more about the players than it does Ruff (while I do acknowledge he's had a large hand in the composition of the roster, so he's certainly not innocent either way). I don't think he believes hitting in and of itself is as important as a lot of fans do (and some other coaches), but that in no way means he's anti-toughness. I don't think anybody can seriously say Detroit is bad because they don't hit everything that moves....it's just that Ruff is trying to be like Detroit without the horses to accomplish it. There's good reasons to not be a fan of Ruff and want him replaced (lack of consistent effort, lines, inability to get consistent effort, playing a system without the right pieces for it), I just don't think the "anti-toughness" or "he coaches toughness out of players" are legitimate reasons.
deluca67 Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Begs the question, why hasn't Lindy coached the toughness out of Foligno then? I think you make a good point about Kassian's need to refine his game. GO SABRES!!! Give him time. I think people are reading what they want into Kassian's comment...it never struck me as "I don't fight/hit because the coach told me not to, I just don't want to say it in public"......it struck me more as "You're not the coach, I don't have to answer to you for how I play." Personally I've felt that Kassian has been snake-bit since his last suspension, since he hasn't been the same guy. Gaustad I don't think has been the same since his injuries a few years ago. It was like he got hurt a bunch of times and started playing less physical to preserve himself. Kaleta simply can't play the way he used to...he has a reputation now, and doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from refs. In general I agree with d4rk, Ruff simply expects his guys to go out and be hockey players. Standing up for teammates, especially in hockey, is something that's ingrained from youth. If that has to be coached into players, I think that says a lot more about the players than it does Ruff (while I do acknowledge he's had a large hand in the composition of the roster, so he's certainly not innocent either way). I don't think he believes hitting in and of itself is as important as a lot of fans do (and some other coaches), but that in no way means he's anti-toughness. I don't think anybody can seriously say Detroit is bad because they don't hit everything that moves....it's just that Ruff is trying to be like Detroit without the horses to accomplish it. There's good reasons to not be a fan of Ruff and want him replaced (lack of consistent effort, lines, inability to get consistent effort, playing a system without the right pieces for it), I just don't think the "anti-toughness" or "he coaches toughness out of players" are legitimate reasons. Detroit is the exception to a lot of rules. If Lindy is trying to emulate the Red Wings, who still hit more than the Sabres, wouldn't it stand to reason that curtailing the physical play of his players would be part of emulating the Red Wings?
Ross Rhea Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 The thing I thought I noticed about Kassian was he looked like he was just thinking way too much out there. I seemed like he was told by Ruff, you need to be here, or do this when this happens, or whatever Ruffs system is. It really looked like the gears were working but that was taking away from him just reacting out there and doing what comes natural at times(being physical). I can't yet figure out if that is good or bad on Zacks part. I just seems for young guys, if you don't do it Ruffs way you end up in his dog house for like ever. Not a good way to coach if you ask me. Kids make mistakes, and it seems like Ruff has no tolerance for that.
Eleven Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I think people are reading what they want into Kassian's comment...it never struck me as "I don't fight/hit because the coach told me not to, I just don't want to say it in public"......it struck me more as "You're not the coach, I don't have to answer to you for how I play." Personally I've felt that Kassian has been snake-bit since his last suspension, since he hasn't been the same guy. Gaustad I don't think has been the same since his injuries a few years ago. It was like he got hurt a bunch of times and started playing less physical to preserve himself. Kaleta simply can't play the way he used to...he has a reputation now, and doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from refs. In general I agree with d4rk, Ruff simply expects his guys to go out and be hockey players. Standing up for teammates, especially in hockey, is something that's ingrained from youth. If that has to be coached into players, I think that says a lot more about the players than it does Ruff (while I do acknowledge he's had a large hand in the composition of the roster, so he's certainly not innocent either way). I don't think he believes hitting in and of itself is as important as a lot of fans do (and some other coaches), but that in no way means he's anti-toughness. I don't think anybody can seriously say Detroit is bad because they don't hit everything that moves....it's just that Ruff is trying to be like Detroit without the horses to accomplish it. There's good reasons to not be a fan of Ruff and want him replaced (lack of consistent effort, lines, inability to get consistent effort, playing a system without the right pieces for it), I just don't think the "anti-toughness" or "he coaches toughness out of players" are legitimate reasons. You're right. Others just like to make stuff up and repeat it until it becomes accepted as truth. It's a Rove tactic.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 You're right. Others just like to make stuff up and repeat it until it becomes accepted as truth. It's a Rove tactic. And others can't handle the truth.
Eleven Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 And others can't handle the truth. What, that Ruff hates toughness? I gave three examples showing that he doesn't. One was dismissed as archaic (it's only five years ago) and the other two were dismissed without reason. No one has shown that the guy hates toughness. It's just crap that gets repeated without basis.
tom webster Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 What, that Ruff hates toughness? I gave three examples showing that he doesn't. One was dismissed as archaic (it's only five years ago) and the other two were dismissed without reason. No one has shown that the guy hates toughness. It's just crap that gets repeated without basis. There might not be another post that I have ever agreed more with.
deluca67 Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 What, that Ruff hates toughness? I gave three examples showing that he doesn't. One was dismissed as archaic (it's only five years ago) and the other two were dismissed without reason. No one has shown that the guy hates toughness. It's just crap that gets repeated without basis. "no one" except for the players that play for him. How many times have a Sabres player taken cheap shots without response since Ottawa? Half dozen? Dozen? More? A lot has happen over that time. And let's give a reason for the other two. A team meeting after Miller got run. It took this team to be embarrassed nationally, it made PTI, to have a meeting on how soft the team is. If Lindy Ruff is about toughness that meeting would have never been necessary. Kaleta? Lindy Ruff is protecting his player against calls he feels unjust. He would do the same for any other player. Nothing you have presented shows that Lindy Ruff has any appreciation for the physical part of the game. I guess that is what you meant by "It's just crap that gets repeated without basis." If you keep saying Lindy appreciates or coaches toughness maybe some will believe you. Some fans may, the players prove otherwise.
SwampD Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 What, that Ruff hates toughness? I gave three examples showing that he doesn't. One was dismissed as archaic (it's only five years ago) and the other two were dismissed without reason. No one has shown that the guy hates toughness. It's just crap that gets repeated without basis. Do you really care if Lindy hates toughness or not? If he doesn't stress it, then the end result is the same anyway; his guys don't play tough.
nfreeman Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Do you really care if Lindy hates toughness or not? If he doesn't stress it, then the end result is the same anyway; his guys don't play tough. It matters because it affects the decision in what the solution should be -- ie change the Coach vs change the players.
Robviously Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 It matters because it affects the decision in what the solution should be -- ie change the Coach vs change the players. Ruff has plenty of say in who his players are. If he doesn't like the team he has, he can blame himself.
SwampD Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Whatever system we use, when we play Boston, it should not involve allowing shots from the point when Chara is on the ice.
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