Do you know Ruff's System

[RazielSabre]

Well, I'm a Lindy supporter, but there is a very compelling piece of evidence on GoDD's side, which is how awful the team looked for the first half of last season, and as a result how the team fell well short of expectations -- for which the coach is usually held accountable.

 

How dare the coach let half his team, including the top 2 defensemen, get injured. Stuff sacking him, lets hang him :rolleyes:. Sorry if that's obnoxious

[nfreeman]

How compelling is it though? The Sabres were 10-5 and second in the conference going into the "Lucic game", then they went into the toilet with a crap ton of injuries and shattered confidence. Then after the all-star break the team got reasonably healthy and went on a tear. If that 10-5 start were a 5-10 start, I'd find it much more compelling evidence.

 

Perhaps their confidence shouldn't have been shattered. Perhaps they should've responded to injuries the way good teams do -- by gutting out enough wins to stay afloat, not falling completely off the table and going 9-24 (or whatever it was) and torpedoing the season. Perhaps they shouldn't have done, again, what this team has done every year since Black Sunday when faced with adversity, which is running away and hiding under the bed and hoping someone else handles things for them.

 

Yes, that is a general point that can and should be made, but the specific assertions about Ruff and his motivations for hiring assistants and how those assistants interact with him is pure conjecture.

The team struggling is evidence that none of the coaches are vocal or willing to speak up to Ruff? I think you skipped a few dots while connecting them there. That may as well be the equivalent of saying I have X amount of posts, so clearly I know what I'm talking about.

 

You are both right about the "hiring weak assistant coaches" theory. My point was simply, and more generally, that there is a credible reason for some to hold Lindy accountable for last season's debacle.

[RazielSabre]

Perhaps their confidence shouldn't have been shattered. Perhaps they should've responded to injuries the way good teams do -- by gutting out enough wins to stay afloat, not falling completely off the table and going 9-24 (or whatever it was) and torpedoing the season. Perhaps they shouldn't have done, again, what this team has done every year since Black Sunday when faced with adversity, which is running away and hiding under the bed and hoping someone else handles things for them.

 

 

 

 

You are both right about the "hiring weak assistant coaches" theory. My point was simply, and more generally, that there is a credible reason for some to hold Lindy accountable for last season's debacle.

The point that the team should have responded better is a well respected one around here and one almost everyone agrees with. The blame does not solely lie with Ruff though, the entire team should take responsibility and as a result we have no more Gausted or Roy, two good things. Ruff is known as a hard nosed manager so I doubt he took that well anyway.

[TrueBlueGED]

Perhaps their confidence shouldn't have been shattered. Perhaps they should've responded to injuries the way good teams do -- by gutting out enough wins to stay afloat, not falling completely off the table and going 9-24 (or whatever it was) and torpedoing the season. Perhaps they shouldn't have done, again, what this team has done every year since Black Sunday when faced with adversity, which is running away and hiding under the bed and hoping someone else handles things for them.

 

Which is fair, and I have a post buried somewhere essentially agreeing with that perspective. I just don't know how much difference it would have made. Let's say there was something Ruff could have done to save the confidence (or at least get it recovered sooner) that he didn't do...how much better would the team really have been during that stretch? When Chewy is a top-6 player, you're probably not going to consistently beat any team that isn't a bottom feeder. I actually think the first half of 2010-11 is a much stronger case against Ruff than the first half of last season.

[JJFIVEOH]

In fairness, Richards is a playmaking center, not a goal scorer. Those 25 goals were a good number for him. His assist totals, however, were way down--in more games played, to boot. But that's typical of a big UFA signing, especially one going from a relatively open offensive system to a six goalie system.

 

That said, I still have no idea what Drane is talking about. The Sabres roster is a pot of ######, and Ruff is a coach who likes to serve ######, and yet they were 3 points out of the playoffs with a Murphy's Law season. Again, just using some basic logic, if the roster and coach were as bad as some around here say, we'd have been right there with Columbus hoping for Yakupov.

 

Fair enough.

 

Fact still stands that this board would be going nuts if we hadn't had a Cup by now with NY's so-called attractiveness to big name players.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Who here watched Patrick and Teppo play hockey for close to 15 years? I did. What was their personality on the ice? What was their personality in interviews?

 

Who here watched Jim Schoenfeld play hockey for close to 15 years and coach for close to a decade? What was his personality on the ice?

 

Some of you act like you are in some bubble. Do you not have any feel whatsoever for a person?

 

I am not saying either of those guys aren't hockey smart or can't be good coaches......but holy cow.....both those guys had Lindy as their superior when they played. They were nice responsible defensive players who could move the puck. It is a double down on Lindy's system. There aren't any new ideas coming in, and these guys listened to him when he was their coach....now they have ZERO coaching experience and have to learn how to coach from him????? What new things could they possibly be bringing to the team? What new ideas? The past 10 years they were Sabres directly under Lindy. Other than technical fundamental teaching and positioning......they are useless. They've never coached and developed their own ideas. On a team that has been exposed as fragile and lacking grit.....you have freaking Opie from Andy Griffith as your assistant coach. WOW!

 

 

Again, this wasn't my topic.....or my point......it's just another log thrown on the fire of mediocrity.

 

Fair enough.

 

Fact still stands that this board would be going nuts if we hadn't had a Cup by now with NY's so-called attractiveness to big name players.

 

I will make you a deal.....

 

Over the next 5 years, I will give you $300 for every Cup the Sabres win if you give me $100 for every Cup the Rangers win?

 

Over the next 5 years I will give you $100 for every time the Rangers miss the playoffs if you give me $50 every time the Sabres miss the playoffs?

 

If any of the Pegulas want in on this deal, give me a shout.

[JJFIVEOH]

You are missing the point.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

You are missing the point.

 

The point that there is a salary cap and the Sabres maxed it out while spending more in cash than the Rangers and missed the playoffs while the Rangers were 3.1 periods away from going to the Stanley Cup?

 

Or the point that minus Richards, Gaborik and Lundqvist, the rest of the top 3 lines and top 4 defensemen averaged 24 years old?

 

It is nice to see though that you admit Vanek, Miller and Myers are nowhere near the level of Lundqvist, Gaborik and Richards.

[shrader]

So 16 years of Teppo's career are completely canceled out by 4 seasons with Lindy (1 of which consisted of a grand total of 1 game).

6 years playing for Lindy completely wipes out the prior

 

So 16 years of both Teppo and Patrick's career are completely canceled out by spending 4 and 6 seasons respectively on a Lindy coached team? That's just mind-numbing.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

So 16 years of Teppo's career are completely canceled out by 4 seasons with Lindy (1 of which consisted of a grand total of 1 game).

6 years playing for Lindy completely wipes out the prior

 

So 16 years of both Teppo and Patrick's career are completely canceled out by spending 4 and 6 seasons respectively on a Lindy coached team? That's just mind-numbing.

 

It's just another inefficiency when deciding who to hire as an assistant.

 

The accusation is that Ruff needs to feel like the undisputed leader in the locker room as evidenced by his choices of captains and hiring coaches with zero experience.

 

Not only do the coaches have zero experience, but the playing experience they had was heavily influenced by Ruff.

 

Not only did they play for Ruff, but they both had skillsets that Ruff values in his system.

 

It is just another example of "groupthink". The cynic has every right to say..."Lindy brought in quiet, calm guys who already played the game the way Ruff likes it so they will be more apt to agree with things and not pipe up in any sort of confrontation if they don't."

 

It's not just the hiring of coaches with no experience......it's the continual lining up of the stars that always seems to happen which fosters a passive atmosphere from the team.

[X. Benedict]

Who here watched Patrick and Teppo play hockey for close to 15 years? I did. What was their personality on the ice? What was their personality in interviews?

 

Who here watched Jim Schoenfeld play hockey for close to 15 years and coach for close to a decade? What was his personality on the ice?

 

Some of you act like you are in some bubble. Do you not have any feel whatsoever for a person?

 

I am not saying either of those guys aren't hockey smart or can't be good coaches......but holy cow.....both those guys had Lindy as their superior when they played. They were nice responsible defensive players who could move the puck. It is a double down on Lindy's system. There aren't any new ideas coming in, and these guys listened to him when he was their coach....now they have ZERO coaching experience and have to learn how to coach from him????? What new things could they possibly be bringing to the team? What new ideas? The past 10 years they were Sabres directly under Lindy. Other than technical fundamental teaching and positioning......they are useless. They've never coached and developed their own ideas. On a team that has been exposed as fragile and lacking grit.....you have freaking Opie from Andy Griffith as your assistant coach. WOW!

 

 

Again, this wasn't my topic.....or my point......it's just another log thrown on the fire of mediocrity.

 

 

 

I will make you a deal.....

 

Over the next 5 years, I will give you $300 for every Cup the Sabres win if you give me $100 for every Cup the Rangers win?

 

Over the next 5 years I will give you $100 for every time the Rangers miss the playoffs if you give me $50 every time the Sabres miss the playoffs?

 

If any of the Pegulas want in on this deal, give me a shout.

 

I would love to talk to Jeep. Coaches include Herb Brooks, Michel Bergeron, Mike Keenan, Roger Neilson....I'm not sure about his Calgary days....but Jeep has seen a lot of styles.

 

Teppo...well I even think Schoney coached him for a little while. These guys have seen them all. Dave Tippet comes to mind as well.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I would love to talk to Jeep. Coaches include Herb Brooks, Michel Bergeron, Mike Keenan, Roger Neilson....I'm not sure about his Calgary days....but Jeep has seen a lot of styles.

 

Teppo...well I even think Schoney coached him for a little while. These guys have seen them all. Dave Tippet comes to mind as well.

 

Those are good points. How about skillset and personality though? I've talked to Patrick. If he had his hair dyed red and lived in Colorado.....I may have run for my life.

 

I have no idea what their upside is as coaches. I won't deny that they are hockey smart. With the history of team culture recently.......it isn't a bad original question however.

[TrueBlueGED]

I would love to talk to Jeep. Coaches include Herb Brooks, Michel Bergeron, Mike Keenan, Roger Neilson....I'm not sure about his Calgary days....but Jeep has seen a lot of styles.

 

Teppo...well I even think Schoney coached him for a little while. These guys have seen them all. Dave Tippet comes to mind as well.

 

But they played for Lindy, and he's the only one that matters, his faults erase the good from everyone else! Don't you see! :rolleyes:

 

This conversation has officially motivated me to mow my lawn.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

But they played for Lindy, and he's the only one that matters, his faults erase the good from everyone else! Don't you see! :rolleyes:

 

This conversation has officially motivated me to mow my lawn.

 

Do you call your lawn "Lindy", seeing as it's probably burned out?

[IKnowPhysics]

For those just tuning in, here's the best of Ghost of Dwight Drane in this thread. The forum's quote block limit is set to 10 per post.

 

I see what I see......I know what I know......People tell me what they tell me.......

Granted it's wrestling, but it's an athlete who if you equated to a hockey player, would be a captain for pretty much any team. For me he hit it 100%.

Deflect......deflect....deflect........

 

It's great to have you back. Without you, we are fighting a war without air cover. Now after you carpet bomb the bad guys, the ground troops can go in and clean the grid out.

You don't think that is a ballzy setup? That's experience and both vertical and horizontal integration all at once......an organizational masterpiece of a setup. It didn't seem to shake the head coach much now did it?

Now back to my regularly scheduled bell curve response method.

That's better control than my Chz in nothing but overalls squinting at the solar eclipse.

 

Edit: intended for Physics

Then there's the fact he needs to remove HIS RING when he mixes up and makes the meatballs.

It's not just the hiring of coaches with no experience......it's the continual lining up of the stars that always seems to happen which fosters a passive atmosphere from the team.

I've talked to Patrick. If he had his hair dyed red and lived in Colorado.....I may have run for my life.

Do you call your lawn "Lindy", seeing as it's probably burned out?

 

I've suddenly discovered something more pointless than analyzing assistant coach statistics: engaging this conversation.

[nfreeman]

I will make you a deal.....

 

Over the next 5 years, I will give you $300 for every Cup the Sabres win if you give me $100 for every Cup the Rangers win?

 

Over the next 5 years I will give you $100 for every time the Rangers miss the playoffs if you give me $50 every time the Sabres miss the playoffs?

 

If any of the Pegulas want in on this deal, give me a shout.

 

If you're permitting outsider cherry-picking on the bet, I'll take the Cup bet.

 

The accusation is that Ruff needs to feel like the undisputed leader in the locker room as evidenced by his choices of captains and hiring coaches with zero experience.

 

Without reopening the assistant coach can of worms, I don't think the captain assertion holds water. Drury and Briere were nobody's yes-men, and both of them were ready to stay here until the bozos upstairs dropped the ball. After that, there was no captain, since no one deserved it, then Rivet, who was also not a yes-man, then no one again, since no one deserved it yet, then a bunch of losers who didn't deserve it last year -- 2 of whom openly complained about Lindy to the media at the end of the season and a third (Stafford) who was caught on TV yelling back at Lindy during a game.

[TrueBlueGED]

Do you call your lawn "Lindy", seeing as it's probably burned out?

 

I laughed. And the lawn is more alive than you'd think.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I laughed. And the lawn is more alive than you'd think.

 

:P

 

If you're permitting outsider cherry-picking on the bet, I'll take the Cup bet.

 

 

 

Without reopening the assistant coach can of worms, I don't think the captain assertion holds water. Drury and Briere were nobody's yes-men, and both of them were ready to stay here until the bozos upstairs dropped the ball. After that, there was no captain, since no one deserved it, then Rivet, who was also not a yes-man, then no one again, since no one deserved it yet, then a bunch of losers who didn't deserve it last year -- 2 of whom openly complained about Lindy to the media at the end of the season and a third (Stafford) who was caught on TV yelling back at Lindy during a game.

 

I'm sorry.....I meant the letter wearers from last year....although the whole captain thing is another story.

 

No cherry-picking! Although I would love to bet Pegula on it. I would even let Ted Black hold the money in escrow for us as long as I earn 5% interest in Sabrebucks.

[wjag]

 

 

3x3=9

 

3x1=3

 

1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=1

 

Now you know why......

 

Isn't it really 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1=1

[MattPie]

Isn't it really 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1=1

 

It's formally 1^1^1^1^1^11^111^1111^11111^111111^(1/1).

[TrueBlueGED]

I'm hesitant to open up another can of worms, but I found this interview with Ed Olczyk interesting and has some ammunition for both sides of the debate. http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/blackhawks/post/_/id/4671371/q-and-a-olczyk-on-the-hawks-the-hall

 

Well first of all I think Joel is a great coach, and I wish I could have played for him but to answer your question, yes, great coaches can have off years. Great coaches can miss pushing the right buttons. Great players can have average years. I don’t think coaches are immune to slumps or poor decision making. All coaches at all levels, and Joel knows this, don’t always push the right buttons all the time but even when they do push the right buttons the players have to react. I played on the power play, I coached it, I have a good feel, the scheme is 50 percent. The other 50 percent is the player’s ability to ad-lib, take what is given and execute. I’m not on the side of the fence that power play is coaching. To me, it’s more the decision making by the players. And I lived it as a power play guy.

Let me emphasize I can only speak from my experience as a player and a coach, you start looking at ‘what is our philosophy?” Does the philosophy we use go hand-in-hand with the personnel? At the end of the day is the personnel the right people doing it? At the end of the day I would start with my philosophy then to the people doing it and break it down that way. Obviously, there was a disconnect somewhere. Most teams kill the same way. Not all but most teams have the same philosophy of being aggressive and pressuring.