Do you know Ruff's System

[TrueBlueGED]

There you go.....in 2011 the Rangers were 3 points worse than the Sabres and last year the Rangers were 20 points better than the Sabres.

 

In 2011 the Rangers ages in order of scoring were:

 

Dubinsky 24

Gaborik 29

Callahan 26

Stepan 20

Ansimov 22

Boyle 25

Girardi 26

Prust 27

Staal 24

 

Then add last years top performers

 

DelZotto 21

McDonagh 21

Hagelin 23

 

This year you have going into the season:

 

Richards 32

Nash 28

Gaborik 30

Callahan 27

Hagelin 24

Stepan 22

Boyle 27

 

Staal 25

Girardi 28

McDonagh 23

DelZotto 22

 

 

Maybe.....when identifying a young core to build around, and decideing to take a breather for a year in order to get them experience.......then making a huge jump the next year and setting up with your entire team in their prime or years away from it.......and adding a franchise player to the mix a year after finishing 1 point out of #1 in the league.....and STILL looking to add gritty experience to a team that was at the top of the league in hitting and size.......all while missing the Stanley Cup by 2 games..........

 

Yeah.....I tend to look up to that model versus the "tuck your tail and hide" model the Sabres have used over the years.

 

You really try too hard. Sometimes you just have to admit when someone has the better of "your" team.

 

I don't even know what in the hell you're trying to argue anymore. Organizational structure? Strategic planning? Coaching experience? Coaching style?

 

Sather has done an excellent job in recent years of identifying a core, and supplementing it with free agency and trades. They are set up well to have a nice window where they're legit contenders. But what does that have to do with the composition of the assistant coaches, which is where this little debate began? The argument started with you saying Ruff should construct his staff like Tortorella did. But as you have so eloquently shown, those supposed great assistants provided worse results than the dog poo assistants Ruff has until this season. Why were the results worse? I'm going to go with the roster wasn't very good the past few years, not that Tortorella and his crew didn't know how to coach and somehow learned how going into this season.

 

When the Rangers roster wasn't very good, the record wasn't very good--with the same freakin coaching staff. The roster got better, the results got better--with the same freakin coaching staff. The LA Kings in the playoffs averaged almost an entire goal more per game than during the regular season. Did Sutter suddenly learn how to coach offense, or did the players just start playing better? Did Babcock forget how to win a playoff series this year, or was his roster just worse? Did Julien forget how to coach a Cup winner, or did his players simply play worse this year?

 

This argument is tiresome. Why not read the quote from your boy Dave Wannstedt? He's a guy you have a lot of respect for, and think will help the Bills' defense out. He said he learned a long time ago players win games, not coaches.

[SwampD]

I don't even know what in the hell you're trying to argue anymore. Organizational structure? Strategic planning? Coaching experience? Coaching style?

 

Sather has done an excellent job in recent years of identifying a core, and supplementing it with free agency and trades. They are set up well to have a nice window where they're legit contenders. But what does that have to do with the composition of the assistant coaches, which is where this little debate began? The argument started with you saying Ruff should construct his staff like Tortorella did. But as you have so eloquently shown, those supposed great assistants provided worse results than the dog poo assistants Ruff has until this season. Why were the results worse? I'm going to go with the roster wasn't very good the past few years, not that Tortorella and his crew didn't know how to coach and somehow learned how going into this season.

 

When the Rangers roster wasn't very good, the record wasn't very good--with the same freakin coaching staff. The roster got better, the results got better--with the same freakin coaching staff. The LA Kings in the playoffs averaged almost an entire goal more per game than during the regular season. Did Sutter suddenly learn how to coach offense, or did the players just start playing better? Did Babcock forget how to win a playoff series this year, or was his roster just worse? Did Julien forget how to coach a Cup winner, or did his players simply play worse this year?

 

This argument is tiresome. Why not read the quote from your boy Dave Wannstedt? He's a guy you have a lot of respect for, and think will help the Bills' defense out. He said he learned a long time ago players win games, not coaches.

Sutter came in mid season, right around the time their season turned around. Coaching does matter.

[I am Defecting]

I agree with both of ya, ya big galoots! ;)

[drnkirishone]

Pot, meet kettle.

we all seem to be mature grown man or women except bio screw her...... (j/k bio)

 

Why is it when one of us says something really stupid, it is so wrong to simply call that stupid thing out with a simple word or two. What makes it so much nicer to use 3 paragraphes to effectively say your idea is dumb please try again.

 

Sutter came in mid season, right around the time their season turned around. Coaching does matter.

 

statistically didn't they only score at a slightly increased rate thou?

[Weave]

I agree that the roster is more important than the coaching staff, but I have questioned Ruff's choices in assistants. I'd rather that every addition to the staff wasn't learning on the job how to coach at the NHL. I have no clue what Lindy's motivation for choosing inexperienced assistants is, and I'm not going to speculate on what it may be, or if it has had a negative effect on the teams' performance, but I do think it likely that bringing in guys with experiences and methods learned form other systems might be something this team could benefit from. Strikes me as similar to GM becoming a stale organization because they rarely go outside of their own self-groomed people for leadership.

 

Having siad that, Dwight is overstating his case a good bit IMO.

[TrueBlueGED]

Sutter came in mid season, right around the time their season turned around. Coaching does matter.

 

The Ducks stunk before Boudreau was hired. The Ducks stunk after Boudreau was hired. Coaching doesn't matter :rolleyes:

 

Before Sutter was hired, the team averaged 2.12 non-shootout goals per game. After he was hired, they averaged 2.4 goals per game. In the playoffs they averaged 2.85. So the difference in production between the regular season and playoffs is greater than the difference in scoring before/after Sutter was hired. Are you going to make the argument that Sutter figured out how to score more goals precisely as the playoffs started?.....or is it that Jeff Carter was added as the final piece of the puzzle?

 

Look, coaching CAN matter. But the vast majority of time coaching changes are completely and totally meaningless. For every coaching change that works. there's about 10 that fail.

 

For everybody who wants to fire Ruff, I ask this: would you rather replace Ruff with John Tortorella, or add Brad Richards to the roster?

[SwampD]

I agree that the roster is more important than the coaching staff, but I have questioned Ruff's choices in assistants. I'd rather that every addition to the staff wasn't learning on the job how to coach at the NHL. I have no clue what Lindy's motivation for choosing inexperienced assistants is, and I'm not going to speculate on what it may be, or if it has had a negative effect on the teams' performance, but I do think it likely that bringing in guys with experiences and methods learned form other systems might be something this team could benefit from. Strikes me as similar to GM becoming a stale organization because they rarely go outside of their own self-groomed people for leadership.

 

Having siad that, Dwight is overstating his case a good bit IMO.

Not just any other systems, other winning systems.

 

But it's moot anyway, because as has been proven over and over in this thread, assistants and coaches don't matter and we're idiots for even bringing it up. :devil:

[TrueBlueGED]

Not just any other systems, other winning systems.

 

But it's moot anyway, because as has been proven over and over in this thread, assistants and coaches don't matter and we're idiots for even bringing it up. :devil:

 

Hey, it could be worse--I could be arguing that Ruff is an elite coach :P

[Weave]

Not just any other systems, other winning systems.

 

But it's moot anyway, because as has been proven over and over in this thread, assistants and coaches don't matter and we're idiots for even bringing it up. :devil:

 

*inserts obnoxious, condescending post here*

 

:D

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

 

For everybody who wants to fire Ruff, I ask this: would you rather replace Ruff with John Tortorella, or add Brad Richards to the roster?

 

Tortorella wouldn't accept a job with Regier as GM.

 

We already saw Richards wouldn't accept an offer from Buffalo....looks like Doan as well.

 

 

When it comes to Richards......throw a $400 truffle into a pot of $h!t and when the bowl comes to your table, it will still taste like $h!t.

 

When it comes to Tortorella.....when you bring in a better chef, he refuses to serve $h!t at his establishment. Either the owner lets him get better ingredients, or he goes elsewhere. Sometimes there are meat and potatoes in the fridge, but the chef decides to serve tofu. Eventually the meat goes bad because it stood around for too long and the chef doesn't know how to use it. When a better chef comes in, he knows that you cook a steak medium rare so some blood dribbles on your plate, and he puts butter, and sour cream, and bacon and chives on the potatoes. He presents a filling meal and uses the ingreedients efficiently. Maybe he will have a vegetarian plate or two, but he would rather kill himself than waste his time serving tofu for 15 years.

 

Enjoy your tofu.

[drnkirishone]

Tortorella wouldn't accept a job with Regier as GM.

 

We already saw Richards wouldn't accept an offer from Buffalo....looks like Doan as well.

 

 

When it comes to Richards......throw a $400 truffle into a pot of $h!t and when the bowl comes to your table, it will still taste like $h!t.

 

When it comes to Tortorella.....when you bring in a better chef, he refuses to serve $h!t at his establishment. Either the owner lets him get better ingredients, or he goes elsewhere. Sometimes there are meat and potatoes in the fridge, but the chef decides to serve tofu. Eventually the meat goes bad because it stood around for too long and the chef doesn't know how to use it. When a better chef comes in, he knows that you cook a steak medium rare so some blood dribbles on your plate, and he puts butter, and sour cream, and bacon and chives on the potatoes. He presents a filling meal and uses the ingreedients efficiently. Maybe he will have a vegetarian plate or two, but he would rather kill himself than waste his time serving tofu for 15 years.

 

Enjoy your tofu.

explain again why you bother coming here or calling yourself a sabres fan? See this is why I don't like PA being back cause you just feed off his agenda and it makes you go hyperactive on your theories and own Ruff/Regier hatred

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

explain again why you bother coming here or calling yourself a sabres fan? See this is why I don't like PA being back cause you just feed off his agenda and it makes you go hyperactive on your theories and own Ruff/Regier hatred

 

3x3=9

 

3x1=3

 

1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=1

 

Now you know why......

[JJFIVEOH]

Tortorella wouldn't accept a job with Regier as GM.

 

We already saw Richards wouldn't accept an offer from Buffalo....looks like Doan as well.

 

 

When it comes to Richards......throw a $400 truffle into a pot of $h!t and when the bowl comes to your table, it will still taste like $h!t.

 

When it comes to Tortorella.....when you bring in a better chef, he refuses to serve $h!t at his establishment. Either the owner lets him get better ingredients, or he goes elsewhere. Sometimes there are meat and potatoes in the fridge, but the chef decides to serve tofu. Eventually the meat goes bad because it stood around for too long and the chef doesn't know how to use it. When a better chef comes in, he knows that you cook a steak medium rare so some blood dribbles on your plate, and he puts butter, and sour cream, and bacon and chives on the potatoes. He presents a filling meal and uses the ingreedients efficiently. Maybe he will have a vegetarian plate or two, but he would rather kill himself than waste his time serving tofu for 15 years.

 

Enjoy your tofu.

 

Explain to me again what Tortorella has done in the playoffs with a team in this supposed 'hockey Mecca' where all big names want to play? Maybe Tortorella is surrounded by the best ingredients but the best he can do is fry some fish sticks.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Explain to me again what Tortorella has done in the playoffs with a team in this supposed 'hockey Mecca' where all big names want to play? Maybe Tortorella is surrounded by the best ingredients but the best he can do is fry some fish sticks.

 

Well....last year alone he won 2x as many playoff games as Lindy Ruff has the past 5 years. That's a good start.

 

Then there's the fact he needs to remove HIS RING when he mixes up and makes the meatballs.

[JJFIVEOH]

Well....last year alone he won 2x as many playoff games as Lindy Ruff has the past 5 years. That's a good start.

 

Then there's the fact he needs to remove HIS RING when he mixes up and makes the meatballs.

 

With a team like the Rangers who love to bring in the big names AND the big names love to go there............ anything short of a Cup is a failure! Ruff has had absolute trash to work with compared to Tortorella. Could you imagine this board if BFLO could attract big name players like NY and Lindy couldn't win a Cup? Could you imagine if BFLO brought in Richards last year and Ruff could only squeeze 25 goals out of him? Holy crap! This board would be going mad! Yet Tortorella is a King to you (and Vanek had his worst year since 2005 and still scored more goals than Richards).

[TrueBlueGED]

With a team like the Rangers who love to bring in the big names AND the big names love to go there............ anything short of a Cup is a failure! Ruff has had absolute trash to work with compared to Tortorella. Could you imagine this board if BFLO could attract big name players like NY and Lindy couldn't win a Cup? Could you imagine if BFLO brought in Richards last year and Ruff could only squeeze 25 goals out of him? Holy crap! This board would be going mad! Yet Tortorella is a King to you (and Vanek had his worst year since 2005 and still scored more goals than Richards).

 

In fairness, Richards is a playmaking center, not a goal scorer. Those 25 goals were a good number for him. His assist totals, however, were way down--in more games played, to boot. But that's typical of a big UFA signing, especially one going from a relatively open offensive system to a six goalie system.

 

That said, I still have no idea what Drane is talking about. The Sabres roster is a pot of ######, and Ruff is a coach who likes to serve ######, and yet they were 3 points out of the playoffs with a Murphy's Law season. Again, just using some basic logic, if the roster and coach were as bad as some around here say, we'd have been right there with Columbus hoping for Yakupov.

[Claude_Verret]

So I've just skimmed most of the posts, but the argument from some seems to be that since Ruff hires inexperienced coaches, then these coaches cannot be vocal and stand up to Ruff in any way. Can someone chime in and let me know how we know this to be the case? I mean other than the fact that wanting it to be true fits into your anti- Ruff agenda.

 

edit: I'm asking this as someone who does indeed believe that Lindy's time has come and gone here in Buffalo.

[darksabre]

So I've just skimmed most of the posts, but the argument from some seems to be that since Ruff hires inexperienced coaches, then these coaches cannot be vocal and stand up to Ruff in any way. Can someone chime in and let me know how we know this to be the case? I mean other than the fact that wanting it to be true fits into your anti- Ruff agenda.

 

As I'm sure you've figured out by now, Drane's schtick is to come up with the most outlandish and weak theory, and then adhere to it like gospel no matter what evidence is provided to disprove it. Unfortunately, he's not Galileo and his out of the box thinking wont get him remembered for some great contribution to sports science.

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

So I've just skimmed most of the posts, but the argument from some seems to be that since Ruff hires inexperienced coaches, then these coaches cannot be vocal and stand up to Ruff in any way. Can someone chime in and let me know how we know this to be the case? I mean other than the fact that wanting it to be true fits into your anti- Ruff agenda.

 

edit: I'm asking this as someone who does indeed believe that Lindy's time has come and gone here in Buffalo.

 

I am sorry to inform you that you are asking for a rational explanation to an argument that is emotionally driven. Don't expect too much.

[nfreeman]

As I'm sure you've figured out by now, Drane's schtick is to come up with the most outlandish and weak theory, and then adhere to it like gospel no matter what evidence is provided to disprove it. Unfortunately, he's not Galileo and his out of the box thinking wont get him remembered for some great contribution to sports science.

 

Well, I'm a Lindy supporter, but there is a very compelling piece of evidence on GoDD's side, which is how awful the team looked for the first half of last season, and as a result how the team fell well short of expectations -- for which the coach is usually held accountable.

[TrueBlueGED]

Well, I'm a Lindy supporter, but there is a very compelling piece of evidence on GoDD's side, which is how awful the team looked for the first half of last season, and as a result how the team fell well short of expectations -- for which the coach is usually held accountable.

 

How compelling is it though? The Sabres were 10-5 and second in the conference going into the "Lucic game", then they went into the toilet with a crap ton of injuries and shattered confidence. Then after the all-star break the team got reasonably healthy and went on a tear. If that 10-5 start were a 5-10 start, I'd find it much more compelling evidence.

[Claude_Verret]

Well, I'm a Lindy supporter, but there is a very compelling piece of evidence on GoDD's side, which is how awful the team looked for the first half of last season, and as a result how the team fell well short of expectations -- for which the coach is usually held accountable.

 

Yes, that is a general point that can and should be made, but the specific assertions about Ruff and his motivations for hiring assistants and how those assistants interact with him is pure conjecture.

[RazielSabre]

This has been a pretty good debate, although Raziel needs to learn that not every thought should be posted, and those that are need to be phrased less obnoxiously.

 

I'll just add that no one here has any idea what Teppo and Patrick are like with Lindy behind closed doors, or for that matter how effective they are as assistant coaches.

 

No I don't. I'm lovely.

[X. Benedict]

In fairness, Richards is a playmaking center, not a goal scorer. Those 25 goals were a good number for him. His assist totals, however, were way down--in more games played, to boot. But that's typical of a big UFA signing, especially one going from a relatively open offensive system to a six goalie system.

 

That said, I still have no idea what Drane is talking about. The Sabres roster is a pot of ######, and Ruff is a coach who likes to serve ######, and yet they were 3 points out of the playoffs with a Murphy's Law season. Again, just using some basic logic, if the roster and coach were as bad as some around here say, we'd have been right there with Columbus hoping for Yakupov.

 

I really liked the Sabres chances against the Rangers in last years playoff scenario. I thought they matched up pretty well despite the point differential.

[shrader]

Well, I'm a Lindy supporter, but there is a very compelling piece of evidence on GoDD's side, which is how awful the team looked for the first half of last season, and as a result how the team fell well short of expectations -- for which the coach is usually held accountable.

 

The team struggling is evidence that none of the coaches are vocal or willing to speak up to Ruff? I think you skipped a few dots while connecting them there. That may as well be the equivalent of saying I have X amount of posts, so clearly I know what I'm talking about.