Do you know Ruff's System

[TrueBlueGED]

So....in Ottawa is was the PLAYERS who in a 12 month span, took the team from 74 to 92 points. And in Buffalo the putrid 2/3 of the season and mad dash the last 25 games the past few years is either solely on the players or pure coincidence?

 

And how do you explain off the Stanley Cup winning teams having assistants who were previously head coaches or had won a Cup as an assistant before? The last 4 had one, and I stopped after the streak was broken with Babcock....who I just showed has spun off 2 Jack Adams candidates of his own.

 

If 10 of the 30 teams employ such a coach with experience......what are the odds that one of those teams wins the Cup the past 4 years? The odds are 80-1.

 

 

 

Mike Straw says the cheese on a McDonald's burger only can make the burger 12% better or worse. That's it.

 

You should really re-read the article I posted a few months ago debunking the myth of a proven winner. It was in the thread where you spouted how only new coaches win Cups. Cliff's Notes: An exceptionally small number of coaches win multiple Cups, and those who do typically win them all with one team with a concentration of --you guessed it!-- HoF players. They go elsewhere and lose. Same with GMs. Players win championships.

[gohansrage]

So....in Ottawa is was the PLAYERS who in a 12 month span, took the team from 74 to 92 points. And in Buffalo the putrid 2/3 of the season and mad dash the last 25 games the past few years is either solely on the players or pure coincidence?

 

Yes. Craig Anderson wasn't on the team the previous year and was a real upgrade. Alfredsson playing 75 as opposed to 54 was also a big boon to this team. Kyle Turris wasn't on the team the previous year and he had a nice season for them

 

 

 

Mike Straw says the cheese on a McDonald's burger only can make the burger 12% better or worse. That's it.

 

I understand your point, but I still think coaching is overrated.

[darksabre]

Am I missing something here? Where was the big experience on the Bruins coaching staff? I also only see an interim coach on the Blackhawks staff and one year of experience on the Penguins staff.

 

Stop it, you're ruining his sh*tty crusade.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Yes. Craig Anderson wasn't on the team the previous year and was a real upgrade. Alfredsson playing 75 as opposed to 54 was also a big boon to this team. Kyle Turris wasn't on the team the previous year and he had a nice season for them

 

 

 

 

 

I understand your point, but I still think coaching is overrated.

 

Turris wasn't on the team but Mike Fischer, Chris Kelly, Jarko Ruuttu and Alexi Kovalev were on the team until February.....at which time Anderson came in.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Am I missing something here? Where was the big experience on the Bruins coaching staff? I also only see an interim coach on the Blackhawks staff and one year of experience on the Penguins staff.

 

???

 

Stevens was a head coach for 4 years before going to LA. Doug Jarvis won the Cup as an assistant coach with Dallas before going to Boston. John Torchetti was a NHL head coach for 2 teams as a midseason hire. The one thing I missed is that Granato was hired at the end of the Stanley Cup season for Pitt, but Bylsma had a patchwork coaching staff that year from what I can see. Still, a rookie coach who just won the cup goes and gets a younger NHL head coach to be on his staff.

[X. Benedict]

You WANT guys to get poached! That means you are doing it right. Babcock had Mclellan and Maclean on his cup winner, and they have both since been Jack Adams finalists themselves.

 

Babcock has his hands full this year. He might actually need a Teppo or a Jeep.

 

Make three D pairs out of these guys: Kronwall, Quicey, Ericson, White, Kindle, Smith

 

Lindstrom retiring is no small loss for a puck possession team.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Stop it, you're ruining his sh*tty crusade.

 

What...that what PA said about an experienced staff and Lindy's failure to hire coaches with ANY experience let alone NHL head coaching experience or Stanley Cup winners as assistant coaches......and it was shown that while less than 1/3 of the assistant coaches in the league have been head coaches or won a cup as an assistant, of the teams that made the playoffs last year , 63% of them employed one of said coaches...........while of the teams that missed the playoffs, only 28% of them employed one of those experienced coaches?

 

You should really re-read the article I posted a few months ago debunking the myth of a proven winner. It was in the thread where you spouted how only new coaches win Cups. Cliff's Notes: An exceptionally small number of coaches win multiple Cups, and those who do typically win them all with one team with a concentration of --you guessed it!-- HoF players. They go elsewhere and lose. Same with GMs. Players win championships.

 

And in that same thread I showed you how every single coach that has won the Stanley Cup, did so in their first 4 years with a team.

 

Except 1.....Al Arbour....who is Darcy's hero....and is why Lindy will be coach for 25 years in Buffalo without a Cup.

 

Thanks to PA, we have unearthed another gem of how we are set up for failure.

 

Lindy's Puppy Mill........keeping Papillon's in cages and shipping Pitbulls out of town for 16 years and counting!

[SwampD]

What...that what PA said about an experienced staff and Lindy's failure to hire coaches with ANY experience let alone NHL head coaching experience or Stanley Cup winners as assistant coaches......and it was shown that while less than 1/3 of the assistant coaches in the league have been head coaches or won a cup as an assistant, of the teams that made the playoffs last year , 63% of them employed one of said coaches...........while of the teams that missed the playoffs, only 28% of them employed one of those experienced coaches?

 

 

 

And in that same thread I showed you how every single coach that has won the Stanley Cup, did so in their first 4 years with a team.

 

Except 1.....Al Arbour....who is Darcy's hero....and is why Lindy will be coach for 25 years in Buffalo without a Cup.

 

Thanks to PA, we have unearthed another gem of how we are set up for failure.

 

Lindy's Puppy Mill........keeping Papillon's in cages and shipping Pitbulls out of town for 16 years and counting!

Just fantastic. The image of five Papillons in little blue and gold jerseys sliding all over the ice is going to make me chuckle all week.

[TrueBlueGED]

And in that same thread I showed you how every single coach that has won the Stanley Cup, did so in their first 4 years with a team.

 

Except 1.....Al Arbour....who is Darcy's hero....and is why Lindy will be coach for 25 years in Buffalo without a Cup.

 

Thanks to PA, we have unearthed another gem of how we are set up for failure.

 

Lindy's Puppy Mill........keeping Papillon's in cages and shipping Pitbulls out of town for 16 years and counting!

 

And that argument was blown to hell with proper causal inference. But if you insist on using that logic, then you should also be crusading for the Kings to fire Sutter. They have a much better chance of winning another Cup without him than with him.

 

Look, if you want to think Ruff can't win here and it's time to move on, it's a valid opinion. Or if you prefer to watch a different style of play, that's fine too. But don't pretend it's somehow a factual statement backed up by mountains of statistical evidence, because the evidence suggests exactly the opposite: coaching doesn't matter. Did Marc Crawford forget how to win championships, or did he simply stop coaching teams with an in-prime Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, and Patrick Roy? Did Mike Babcock forget how to get out of the first round, or is his roster simply worse than it has been the past 5 years? Pete DeBoeur couldn't win in Florida. Did he figure out how to coach, or did he have a team led by Parise and Kovalchuk? Players are so much more important than coaches this shouldn't even be a discussion.

[IKnowPhysics]

Why don't you mention...[insert cup stats]

Hmmnnnn.......I don't know what model you are using......maybe it's the Bravo Sierra one? :o

Didn't look at cup stats, only experience and winning percentage.

 

You WANT guys to get poached! That means you are doing it right. Babcock had Mclellan and Maclean on his cup winner, and they have both since been Jack Adams finalists themselves.

 

...

 

By the way...not wanting to knock your work...you did the research, just slanted it a tad!

 

Colloquially, I know it's a good sign for guys to get poached, it says someone thinks they're doing a good job. But maybe it's not everything. Maybe you want those quality coaches to stick around for a few years to develop younger players over time instead of hiring the first guys that'll get poached. No data here.

 

And there's no slant in my previous results, only math.

 

Stevens was a head coach for 4 years ...Doug Jarvis won the Cup ... John Torchetti was a NHL head coach ...

Cherry picking to support your slant. Three examples does not constitute a trend. Try looking up the staff experience of 25 years of cup winners.

it was shown that while less than 1/3 of the assistant coaches in the league have been head coaches or won a cup as an assistant, of the teams that made the playoffs last year , 63% of them employed one of said coaches...........while of the teams that missed the playoffs, only 28% of them employed one of those experienced coaches?

Correlation does not imply causation, but my math shows there's not even a correlation between an assistant coach's previous NHL head coach experience and winning percentage.

 

Thanks to PA, we have unearthed another gem of how we are set up for failure.

Ludicrous conclusion based on terrible statistics in an argument that's completely pointless. I'm done talking about assistant coaches for a while.

 

 

...So I'll introduce a new statistical topic. Lindy's supporters often cite for his experience with games played and games won, but his detractors often cite his mediocre ranking in points percentage (somewhere in the middle of the league). I posit that it's possible that the short tenure of most active coaches combined with the concept of post-lockout point inflation may have dragged down Ruff's ranking in points percentage. In other words, if point-inflation hadn't come along, Ruff may or may not be higher in the points percentage rankings. When I get bored again, I'll look into it.

[shrader]

???

 

Stevens was a head coach for 4 years before going to LA. Doug Jarvis won the Cup as an assistant coach with Dallas before going to Boston. John Torchetti was a NHL head coach for 2 teams as a midseason hire. The one thing I missed is that Granato was hired at the end of the Stanley Cup season for Pitt, but Bylsma had a patchwork coaching staff that year from what I can see. Still, a rookie coach who just won the cup goes and gets a younger NHL head coach to be on his staff.

 

The whole thing seems like a bit of a stretch to me. You're expanding your criteria for sake of making a point. What I'm seeing are wildly different coaching staffs bringing home the Cup in each of those seasons.

[X. Benedict]

The whole thing seems like a bit of a stretch to me. You're expanding your criteria for sake of making a point. What I'm seeing are wildly different coaching staffs bringing home the Cup in each of those seasons.

 

There is usually a division of labor as well. A former head coach may not be the best special teams coach, or may have never called the D pairings.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

The whole thing seems like a bit of a stretch to me. You're expanding your criteria for sake of making a point. What I'm seeing are wildly different coaching staffs bringing home the Cup in each of those seasons.

 

It wasn't even a point I wanted to make. It was just a sideshow in the research. I just wanted to refute the claim only 2 assistants had head coaching experience of over 3 years.....it was cherrypicking because 10 had 2 years or more. As you looked up the bios, you couldn't help but notice the success these coaches had and which teams they currently coach for. There were another dozen or so that won Calder Cups or Memorial Cups or coached national teams in addition to those previously mentioned, many who did the same as well.

 

This discussion is not the highest priority on my Sabres list. It's just that when you take a human approach and not a statistical one, you start seeing many other valid points. I never even thought about the current assistants lack of experience. I laugh more at the Torts/Dineen/Cunneyworth going on to other HC jobs.

 

If the Sabres get Doan, I think Lindy is boxed in and has to yield. If not....I sure as heck don't want Bobby Ryan as he has enough daddy issues of his own before coming to this system. I think it could be fine if there are other leaders here....but if we are down to Ott....it will be same old - same old....trickles of change.

[Stoner]

The whole thing seems like a bit of a stretch to me. You're expanding your criteria for sake of making a point. What I'm seeing are wildly different coaching staffs bringing home the Cup in each of those seasons.

 

Do you see any that look like Ruff's setup?

[Stoner]

Come on. Joel Quenneville just hired a new assistant. The guy was an assistant in LA and longtime assistant with Joel in St. Louis, former director of amateur development in LA and head coach at McGill University back in the 90s.

 

Lindy had an opening last season and hired Teppo.

 

Joel has won a Cup. The closest Lindy came was in 2004 when he lost a board hockey game 7 to Gaye after, Lindy alleges, one of the daughters ran into the den and announced she just had her first period and there was a lot of blood in the bathroom, and Gaye flicked in the winning goal with her finger while Lindy was blacking out.

[MattPie]

Joel has won a Cup. The closest Lindy came was in 2004 when he lost a board hockey game 7 to Gaye after, Lindy alleges, one of the daughters ran into the den and announced she just had her first period and there was a lot of blood in the bathroom, and Gaye flicked in the winning goal with her finger while Lindy was blacking out.

 

Yeah, they were miles away in 1999. :wallbash:

[Eleven]

Yeah, they were miles away in 1999. :wallbash:

 

98 and 06, too.

 

And he wonders why some can't take him seriously anymore.

[X. Benedict]

Come on. Joel Quenneville just hired a new assistant. The guy was an assistant in LA and longtime assistant with Joel in St. Louis, former director of amateur development in LA and head coach at McGill University back in the 90s.

 

Lindy had an opening last season and hired Teppo.

 

The three smartest D-men I think Buffalo has ever had were Mike Ramsay (a Lindy Hire), Billy Hajt, and Teppo.

 

I have no problem with Teppo coaching. Jeep was a pretty damn smart D man too. I don't see these as deficiencies.

Rather than an insecure Lindy as your narrative reads, he doesn't seem to have any insecurities with smart.

 

 

Joel has won a Cup.

 

Heck, I'd hire Quenny if he was available....he ain't.

[Claude_Verret]

As Bills training camp opens, this quote caught my eye...

 

“I think one player like that has a big effect on everything,” Bills defensive coordinator Dave Wannstedt said. “We have a lot of good players, and one guy all of a sudden gives another guy an opportunity to take his game to another level. I learned a long time ago, players win games, not coaches.”

[Stoner]

98 and 06, too.

 

And he wonders why some can't take him seriously anymore.

 

I don't wonder that.

 

And, it was a joke, so...

 

The three smartest D-men I think Buffalo has ever had were Mike Ramsay (a Lindy Hire), Billy Hajt, and Teppo.

 

I have no problem with Teppo coaching. Jeep was a pretty damn smart D man too. I don't see these as deficiencies.

Rather than an insecure Lindy as your narrative reads, he doesn't seem to have any insecurities with smart.

 

I think it's a leap to say because a player shows hockey smarts on the ice, that he's smart off it, or that it will translate into good coaching. That's kind of like saying Jim Kelly's a brainiac who would make a good QB coach.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Look at what the Rangers do....Torts has Mike Sullivan who has been a head coach in the NHL and of national teams, and not only does Jim Schoenfeld act as assistant coach and attends all team meetings, but he is also assistant GM and the GM of the minor league team.

 

You have an assistant coach who was a head coach himself for almost a decade, and reports directly to Tort's boss with 100% of what goes on in that room. He also is a direct link to what the team needs on the ice or in the room and knows who is in the pipeline and who could come up to fill a void.

 

You don't think that is a ballzy setup? That's experience and both vertical and horizontal integration all at once......an organizational masterpiece of a setup. It didn't seem to shake the head coach much now did it?

 

Sather-Torts-Sullivan-Schoenfield

 

Regier-Ruff-Teppo-Patrick

 

One group brings together Generals

 

One group brings together the bugler, the drill sgt., the reporter and the cook.

[X. Benedict]

I don't wonder that.

 

And, it was a joke, so...

 

 

I think it's a leap to say because a player shows hockey smarts on the ice, that he's smart off it, or that it will translate into good coaching.

 

Perhaps, but just to make the case, Teppo and Jeep have 40 + years of NHL defensive experience between them, and were able to survive on smarts at the highest level long after they were past their physical primes.

 

I'm reluctant to devalue that.

 

I think that may be more valuable than coaching 16 year olds in juniors, or 20 year olds in the AHL.

[TrueBlueGED]

Look at what the Rangers do....Torts has Mike Sullivan who has been a head coach in the NHL and of national teams, and not only does Jim Schoenfeld act as assistant coach and attends all team meetings, but he is also assistant GM and the GM of the minor league team.

 

You have an assistant coach who was a head coach himself for almost a decade, and reports directly to Tort's boss with 100% of what goes on in that room. He also is a direct link to what the team needs on the ice or in the room and knows who is in the pipeline and who could come up to fill a void.

 

You don't think that is a ballzy setup? That's experience and both vertical and horizontal integration all at once......an organizational masterpiece of a setup. It didn't seem to shake the head coach much now did it?

 

Sather-Torts-Sullivan-Schoenfield

 

Regier-Ruff-Teppo-Patrick

 

One group brings together Generals

 

One group brings together the bugler, the drill sgt., the reporter and the cook.

 

And where did all that get them until Richards came around and Lundqvist had a career year? Worse results than the Sabres. Thanks for supporting my point.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Perhaps, but just to make the case, Teppo and Jeep have 40 + years of NHL defensive experience between them, and were able to survive on smarts at the highest level long after they were past their physical primes.

 

I'm reluctant to devalue that.

 

I think that may be more valuable than coaching 16 year olds in juniors, or 20 year olds in the AHL.

 

I'm more interested in the personality profile than the actual experience. Patrick and Teppo may very well end up decent coaches....but are either of them going to challenge Ruff? It goes along with the types of players Lindy handed letters to....and the Pecas/Gilmores/Drurys/Brieres leaving town.

 

Who AT ALL in the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION is there to grab Ruff by the collar to shake him up when he is out of line? Name 1 person who has the tools? I can't. Darcy is probably afraid of him, and he's his boss.

 

That is what I find more interesting than the experience breakdown itself......and I give props to Physics who actually broke down the material instead of "blah...blah...blah..." "Agenda", "Crusade".

 

Not that X has been anything but civil!

[RazielSabre]

I'm more interested in the personality profile than the actual experience. Patrick and Teppo may very well end up decent coaches....but are either of them going to challenge Ruff? It goes along with the types of players Lindy handed letters to....and the Pecas/Gilmores/Drurys/Brieres leaving town.

 

Who AT ALL in the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION is there to grab Ruff by the collar to shake him up when he is out of line? Name 1 person who has the tools? I can't. Darcy is probably afraid of him, and he's his boss.

 

That is what I find more interesting than the experience breakdown itself......and I give props to Physics who actually broke down the material instead of "blah...blah...blah..." "Agenda", "Crusade".

 

Not that X has been anything but civil!

 

Like most GM's, Darcy's role is to sack him if his boss breaths down his neck. Also I dare you to go to work tomorrow and 'grab your boss by the collar and shake him up'. That has to be the dumbest suggestion.