Who Else? Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Sorry...what I have seen in Myers over the last couple of years has nothing to do with who his partner is. Great defensemen are just that, no matter what team they are on, or who their partner is. Their is no way I believe that Myers ability to become a Norris candidate is going to rely on who his partner is. How many blueline partners has Lidstrom had over the last 20 years? Was he only good in the years when he was paired up with the perfect running mate? Myers is nothing more than potential at this point... which may or may not turn out to be all-star Norris Trophy potential. LIdstrom played with some bum named Rafalski since the lockout. On D if you are not used to playing with someone how the heck can you anticipate or trust what they are to do next?
RazielSabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Sorry...what I have seen in Myers over the last couple of years has nothing to do with who his partner is. Great defensemen are just that, no matter what team they are on, or who their partner is. Their is no way I believe that Myers ability to become a Norris candidate is going to rely on who his partner is. How many blueline partners has Lidstrom had over the last 20 years? Was he only good in the years when he was paired up with the perfect running mate? Myers is nothing more than potential at this point... which may or may not turn out to be all-star Norris Trophy potential. He won the Calder and was one hell of a defenseman the 2nd half of last season. Infact his been great on the ice since his benching this season. Chara only woke up after his partnership with whatshisface in Boston.
LabattBlue Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 LIdstrom played with some bum named Rafalski since the lockout. On D if you are not used to playing with someone how the heck can you anticipate or trust what they are to do next? That would be pretty amazing since the first two years post lockout Rafalski was still with NJ, and even more amazing this year, since Rafalski is now retired.
darksabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 That would be pretty amazing since the first two years post lockout Rafalski was still with NJ, and even more amazing this year, since Rafalski is now retired. And he's playing with Ian White of all people this season. Lidstrom makes anyone he plays with better.
LabattBlue Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 And he's playing with Ian White of all people this season. Lidstrom makes anyone he plays with better. Thank you!
Who Else? Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 That would be pretty amazing since the first two years post lockout Rafalski was still with NJ, and even more amazing this year, since Rafalski is now retired. Wow way to not get the point. Keep looking for insignificant details. He is playing with White this year and for what it is worth not an all-star. He doesn'ty play every other shift with a different partner and the get matched up with the likes of Butler.
nfreeman Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 He won the Calder and was one hell of a defenseman the 2nd half of last season. Infact his been great on the ice since his benching this season. Chara only woke up after his partnership with whatshisface in Boston. No. Chara developed into an awesome defenseman in Ottawa. That's why Boston gave him a huge contract when he was a UFA.
Who Else? Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 And he's playing with Ian White of all people this season. Lidstrom makes anyone he plays with better. Of course he makes Ian White better. He would make Grags better. Did Myers make McNabb better?
darksabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Wow way to not get the point. Keep looking for insignificant details. He is playing with White this year and for what it is worth not an all-star. He doesn'ty play every other shift with a different partner and the get matched up with the likes of Butler. I bet Chris Butler would be an all star playing with Lidstrom.
RazielSabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 And he's playing with Ian White of all people this season. Lidstrom makes anyone he plays with better. Lidstrom is an aweful example as he is, quite frankly one of, if not the, best defensemen of all time.
Who Else? Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I bet Chris Butler would be an all star playing with Lidstrom. Really? I bet you really believe this.
RazielSabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 No. Chara developed into an awesome defenseman in Ottawa. That's why Boston gave him a huge contract when he was a UFA. He never reached his potential until he was a Bruin though, look through his career highlights and their 99% Bruin. My point is that no defenseman is an island, someone like Myers can look great with a great partner and crap with an idiot. Look how bad his offense was with Regehr and how great his all round game was with Tallinder or even Sekera for a while.
SDS Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 How do we know it was the first step? I frankly don't see any reason to think that Myers is anything other than Anaheim's bottom line for Getzlaf. They need defensemen, Getzlaf is an elite player, and there is NFW they are going to take the Sabres' overpaid mediocrities in exchange for him. I think the question now is if Getzlaf is STILL an elite player. People change. Life changes. A tiger at 23 may change his stripes at 29. You acquire someone based upon what you think he WILL do for you, not what he did for someone in the past.
apuszczalowski Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 No. Chara developed into an awesome defenseman in Ottawa. That's why Boston gave him a huge contract when he was a UFA. I just don't understand why everyone thinks that Myers will become the next Chara, besides the height and the fact they are both defencemen, what else do they have in common? Myers is a good-great defencemen right now, and has potential to be even better, but thats what we have said about every prospect the Sabres have in their system that comes up to play here. We thought similar things about Roy, and Stafford, and Pomminstein, and we continue to think that about all the other prospects in the sytem now The problem with making any trades now is that the Sabres aren't in a position of strength to make the deals, and other GMs know this. They managed to get Regher because they could help Calgary out of a Salary Cap jam they were in and take on Kotaliks contract. If they want someone of value, and not a taking on someone elses headache, they will have to give up something of value. Either Vanek, Pominville, or Myers, and would giving up your strengths help them out any right now? If they don't want to give up a strength to help now, they have to be willing to give up top prospects in the system and draft picks to get anything substantial in return. Guys like Roy and Stafford are guys right now that will take something more to sweeten a deal just to get off the roster, or the Sabres will need to take another problem player/underachiever off of a teams hand. Right now, because of the wasted cap space that Darcy produced this offseason, they can take back anything more then picks/prospects in deals until space is opened up He never reached his potential until he was a Bruin though, look through his career highlights and their 99% Bruin. My point is that no defenseman is an island, someone like Myers can look great with a great partner and crap with an idiot. Look how bad his offense was with Regehr and how great his all round game was with Tallinder or even Sekera for a while. I forgot that he was a Senator before, and even more so that he was drafted by the Islanders Whats being said about defence partners though is that the "elite" guys can make their partners look better and don't need the other guy to make them better. Right now Myers needs the help to play better, he isn't making his partners look better then they are
Weave Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I just don't understand why everyone thinks that Myers will become the next Chara, besides the height and the fact they are both defencemen, what else do they have in common? Not much. Their temperaments and styles are completely different. If Myers were 5' 11" we'd be comparing him to Brian Campbell. Granted, that extra wingspan does make him capable of doing things defensively that Campbell didn't do.
darksabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Really? I bet you really believe this. Why not? There was nothing inherently awful about Butler's game while he was here. He simply didn't fit and seemed to be Lindy's whipping boy. Perhaps "all star" is an exaggeration, but if he can resurrect Ian White's career, why not a player like Butler? Butler has had similar numbers to White in his short career, is bigger and younger. I bet he could have a career year as Lidstrom's partner without question.
Weave Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 He never reached his potential until he was a Bruin though, look through his career highlights and their 99% Bruin. My point is that no defenseman is an island, someone like Myers can look great with a great partner and crap with an idiot. Look how bad his offense was with Regehr and how great his all round game was with Tallinder or even Sekera for a while. Not really. Chara was a 40 pt 100+ PIM defenseman for 3 seasons in Ottawa. He's only been over 40 pts twice with Boston (barely 50 pts and 51 pts). Made his first all star appearance with Ottawa. Finished 2nd in Norris balloting with Ottawa. All before the lockout. Like nfreeman said, Chara was signed by Boston for mega dollars because he was already an elite defenseman.
Who Else? Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Why not? There was nothing inherently awful about Butler's game while he was here. He simply didn't fit and seemed to be Lindy's whipping boy. Perhaps "all star" is an exaggeration, but if he can resurrect Ian White's career, why not a player like Butler? Butler has had similar numbers to White in his short career, is bigger and younger. I bet he could have a career year as Lidstrom's partner without question. I really did not think White was that bad. I dont know where he was the last few years, but I liked him in Toronto and never thought he got tthe credit he deserved, because it seemed everyone thought Kaberle was great.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 Not much. Their temperaments and styles are completely different. If Myers were 5' 11" we'd be comparing him to Brian Campbell. Granted, that extra wingspan does make him capable of doing things defensively that Campbell didn't do. I ask because I don't know, but what exactly was Chara's temperament when he was 21? I know that in a hockey sense, he wasn't even on Myers' planet with respect to his development as a defenseman, but I have no idea what his temperament was. Even when he was playing great in Ottawa, I don't ever remember him having the physical style he's had in Boston. More generally, I'm not sure how anybody at this point can simultaneously advocate "blowing it up" and also trading Myers for Getzlaf. For starters, if we blow it up, then we're inherently banking ENTIRELY on the potential of the young guys we rebuild with. Trading the young guy with the most potential is counterintuitive. Additionally, what in the blue hell gives anybody the idea that Getzlaf would sign an extension to a completely rebuilding team? I think a complete rebuild would all but guarantee Getzlaf walks in a year, as he'll be 28 and will want to spend his prime years on a contender. To me either you think the majority of the roster is good enough to win in the near term and want Getzlaf to put it over the top, or you think we need to restart with a bunch of 21 year olds, in which case trading for Getzlaf makes absolutely no sense.
Weave Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I ask because I don't know, but what exactly was Chara's temperament when he was 21? I know that in a hockey sense, he wasn't even on Myers' planet with respect to his development as a defenseman, but I have no idea what his temperament was. Even when he was playing great in Ottawa, I don't ever remember him having the physical style he's had in Boston. More generally, I'm not sure how anybody at this point can simultaneously advocate "blowing it up" and also trading Myers for Getzlaf. For starters, if we blow it up, then we're inherently banking ENTIRELY on the potential of the young guys we rebuild with. Trading the young guy with the most potential is counterintuitive. Additionally, what in the blue hell gives anybody the idea that Getzlaf would sign an extension to a completely rebuilding team? I think a complete rebuild would all but guarantee Getzlaf walks in a year, as he'll be 28 and will want to spend his prime years on a contender. To me either you think the majority of the roster is good enough to win in the near term and want Getzlaf to put it over the top, or you think we need to restart with a bunch of 21 year olds, in which case trading for Getzlaf makes absolutely no sense. I remember Chara being a physical beast in Ottawa. And I also recall him being a bit of a thug when we played against Ottawa. That is only my impression of course but I think his 4 seasons in Ottawa with over 100 penalty minutes pretty conclusively backs up the idea that he was a very physically aggressive defenseman. Granted, I am pretty sure he was older than 21 when he first played in Ottawa. I have only seen aggression out of Myers in very, very small spurts. His game and temperament reminds me of Spacek. Spacho got physical when he got mad. Otherwise, he was content to play body positioning.
nfreeman Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 He never reached his potential until he was a Bruin though, look through his career highlights and their 99% Bruin. My point is that no defenseman is an island, someone like Myers can look great with a great partner and crap with an idiot. Look how bad his offense was with Regehr and how great his all round game was with Tallinder or even Sekera for a while. Not really. Chara was a 40 pt 100+ PIM defenseman for 3 seasons in Ottawa. He's only been over 40 pts twice with Boston (barely 50 pts and 51 pts). Made his first all star appearance with Ottawa. Finished 2nd in Norris balloting with Ottawa. All before the lockout. Like nfreeman said, Chara was signed by Boston for mega dollars because he was already an elite defenseman. No. Chara was the best defenseman in the EC by the time he left Ottawa. He was a major force. He shut down his entire side of the defensive zone. He had a killer slapper from the point and from time to time was "posted up" in front of the goalie on the power play. He also punished anyone foolish enough to fight him. You may be right about even great defensemen needing capable partners (although I tend to think that great defensemen can elevate their partners), but your Chara example is simply wrong. I think the question now is if Getzlaf is STILL an elite player. People change. Life changes. A tiger at 23 may change his stripes at 29. You acquire someone based upon what you think he WILL do for you, not what he did for someone in the past. You're right that this is the key question from the Sabres' perspective in deciding whether to make the deal. My point is simply that from the Ducks' perspective it seems pretty clear that the price for Getzlaf is Myers. I just don't understand why everyone thinks that Myers will become the next Chara, besides the height and the fact they are both defencemen, what else do they have in common? Not much. Their temperaments and styles are completely different. If Myers were 5' 11" we'd be comparing him to Brian Campbell. Granted, that extra wingspan does make him capable of doing things defensively that Campbell didn't do. Well, their size creates a lot of unavoidable similarities. They both have great range in the defensive zone. They both have the physical strength to throw opposing forwards around (Myers isn't as strong yet as Chara, but it's coming). Physics dictates that both should have great slappers. Certainly there are differences, but I don't think it's as simple as saying that their only similarity is their height. Why not? There was nothing inherently awful about Butler's game while he was here. He simply didn't fit and seemed to be Lindy's whipping boy. Perhaps "all star" is an exaggeration, but if he can resurrect Ian White's career, why not a player like Butler? Butler has had similar numbers to White in his short career, is bigger and younger. I bet he could have a career year as Lidstrom's partner without question. A career year, yes. Not an all-star year. FWIW, I was not a fan of Butler's. I thought he was OK at most of the facets of the game, but not particularly good at any of them. I really did not think White was that bad. I dont know where he was the last few years, but I liked him in Toronto and never thought he got tthe credit he deserved, because it seemed everyone thought Kaberle was great. I too thought Kaberle was well overrated. I ask because I don't know, but what exactly was Chara's temperament when he was 21? I know that in a hockey sense, he wasn't even on Myers' planet with respect to his development as a defenseman, but I have no idea what his temperament was. Even when he was playing great in Ottawa, I don't ever remember him having the physical style he's had in Boston. More generally, I'm not sure how anybody at this point can simultaneously advocate "blowing it up" and also trading Myers for Getzlaf. For starters, if we blow it up, then we're inherently banking ENTIRELY on the potential of the young guys we rebuild with. Trading the young guy with the most potential is counterintuitive. Additionally, what in the blue hell gives anybody the idea that Getzlaf would sign an extension to a completely rebuilding team? I think a complete rebuild would all but guarantee Getzlaf walks in a year, as he'll be 28 and will want to spend his prime years on a contender. To me either you think the majority of the roster is good enough to win in the near term and want Getzlaf to put it over the top, or you think we need to restart with a bunch of 21 year olds, in which case trading for Getzlaf makes absolutely no sense. He's always been nastier than Myers. OTOH, Myers has more offensive talent than Chara. I completely agree on Getzlaf. It would be crazy to trade for him without an extension in place, which can't happen until this summer, so this trade ain't happening.
darksabre Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I really did not think White was that bad. I dont know where he was the last few years, but I liked him in Toronto and never thought he got tthe credit he deserved, because it seemed everyone thought Kaberle was great. And maybe Kaberle was what made him good in Toronto. He's spent the last few years in mediocrity between Calgary and wherever else, and now he lands in Detroit with the ageless D-man himself and is ready to have maybe twice as many points than he's ever had come season end. It's amazing what a good D partner can do for a guy who isn't the lead in that dance.
TrueBlueGED Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I remember Chara being a physical beast in Ottawa. And I also recall him being a bit of a thug when we played against Ottawa. That is only my impression of course but I think his 4 seasons in Ottawa with over 100 penalty minutes pretty conclusively backs up the idea that he was a very physically aggressive defenseman. Granted, I am pretty sure he was older than 21 when he first played in Ottawa. I have only seen aggression out of Myers in very, very small spurts. His game and temperament reminds me of Spacek. Spacho got physical when he got mad. Otherwise, he was content to play body positioning. I guess I don't equate penalty minutes with physical aggression. I'm sure there's some correlation, but I don't think penalty minutes=toughness/aggression. For his career, Chara has averaged double the penalty minutes of Shea Weber. I don't think anybody would call Weber soft. Chara's penalty minutes are way lower in Boston than in Ottawa, just glancing at the numbers he's averaging about 70 fewer penalty minutes per season than in Ottawa. Weber for his career is averaging 50-60 minutes per season, Myers is around 40. Myers has gotten more physical, and I think it's pretty clear his most impactful hockey is played when he is playing physical. He's even admitted that himself, so I think it's likely that as he matures both physically and mentally that he becomes a more consistent physical presence. I don't necessarily believe he'll become Chara, but I think there's more to come than what we've seen.
shrader Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 No. Chara was the best defenseman in the EC by the time he left Ottawa. He was a major force. He shut down his entire side of the defensive zone. He had a killer slapper from the point and from time to time was "posted up" in front of the goalie on the power play. He also punished anyone foolish enough to fight him. You may be right about even great defensemen needing capable partners (although I tend to think that great defensemen can elevate their partners), but your Chara example is simply wrong. To be fair, Ottawa did deem Chara to be expendable due to the likes of Wade Redden and Chris Phillips. They gave money to those two first when they also could have paid Chara. And well, we've all seen how that worked out.
dEnnis the Menace Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 I guess I don't equate penalty minutes with physical aggression. I'm sure there's some correlation, but I don't think penalty minutes=toughness/aggression. For his career, Chara has averaged double the penalty minutes of Shea Weber. I don't think anybody would call Weber soft. Chara's penalty minutes are way lower in Boston than in Ottawa, just glancing at the numbers he's averaging about 70 fewer penalty minutes per season than in Ottawa. Weber for his career is averaging 50-60 minutes per season, Myers is around 40. Myers has gotten more physical, and I think it's pretty clear his most impactful hockey is played when he is playing physical. He's even admitted that himself, so I think it's likely that as he matures both physically and mentally that he becomes a more consistent physical presence. I don't necessarily believe he'll become Chara, but I think there's more to come than what we've seen. I agree 100% with what you've said thus far.
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