billsrcursed Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 He hasn't really gotten a shot at a top 6 spot as of yet (although I'm hoping we're seeing a change with that) so I'd say one step at a time. Like most others have said, he's still rather young and needs to build up some NHL experience. That said, I think he's got what it takes, albeit from the miniscule samplings of on-ice time we get to see of him. Anybody know him personally that could comment on his off ice demeanor? Without that, I'd venture to guess we don't REALLY know if he's Captain material, IMHO.
... Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Anybody know him personally that could comment on his off ice demeanor? Without that, I'd venture to guess we don't REALLY know if he's Captain material, IMHO. I would venture to guess that unless someone here is a pro hockey player, then none of us would really know what "captain material" is, regardless of what we see off-ice. Business teams, theatre troupes, hiking clubs, pick-up gamer, sport dilettante, whatever; I'm sure the pro-hockey idiom is so far removed from what most people experience that if we're not allowed to assume, speculate, determine, guesstimate, or otherwise ponder the qualities that make a good captain without "being there", getting a second-hand account from someone else who isn't there won't help. We're stuck with our fantasies here, in our minds' eyesies, lest we get called out for "not really knowing". Which is a bore. It took people YEARS to finally come around to the fact the Roy is bad for the team regardless of his stats.
billsrcursed Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I would venture to guess that unless someone here is a pro hockey player, then none of us would really know what "captain material" is, regardless of what we see off-ice. Business teams, theatre troupes, hiking clubs, pick-up gamer, sport dilettante, whatever; I'm sure the pro-hockey idiom is so far removed from what most people experience that if we're not allowed to assume, speculate, determine, guesstimate, or otherwise ponder the qualities that make a good captain without "being there", getting a second-hand account from someone else who isn't there won't help. We're stuck with our fantasies here, in our minds' eyesies, lest we get called out for "not really knowing". Which is a bore. It took people YEARS to finally come around to the fact the Roy is bad for the team regardless of his stats. Hmmm... not sure I follow. A leader is a leader, regardless of what he/she is leading. The ability to motivate and hold accountable isn't reserved for certain positions when considered a leader, and I'm strictly assuming as I'm not an NHL'er, and SHOULDN'T exclude Hockey players. I guess, if I'm reading your post correctly, there are small differences with Hockey than there would be, say, in an office or in a different sport. The core traits should remain the same though I'd think. Those two qualities I mentioned above would be difficult to gauge when simply watching him as a fan, IMHO. That's all I really meant. Sorry if it came across as snarky or anything.... :blush:
shrader Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Theo Fleury was 5' 6" and 180lbs according to hockeydb.com Gerbe is 5' 5" and 173 according to the same site and I do recall hearing or reading in the last few days Gerbe responding to 5' 5" as his listed by saying he's not quite there yet. Gerbe's size is truly uncharted territory for an NHL player. I'm sure Fleury's listing was a bit generous as well. And yeah, that Gerbe listing always has been generous. I've been saying it for years now. There's also one major difference between their sizes. Just think about how much bigger players have become since Fleury's debut.
LabattBlue Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I'm sure Fleury's listing was a bit generous as well. And yeah, that Gerbe listing always has been generous. I've been saying it for years now. There's also one major difference between their sizes. Just think about how much bigger players have become since Fleury's debut. My daughter who stands 5' 1", passed Gerbe in the mall recently, and she claimed that he was barely any taller than her. :lol:
bunomatic Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I would venture to guess that unless someone here is a pro hockey player, then none of us would really know what "captain material" is, regardless of what we see off-ice. Business teams, theatre troupes, hiking clubs, pick-up gamer, sport dilettante, whatever; I'm sure the pro-hockey idiom is so far removed from what most people experience that if we're not allowed to assume, speculate, determine, guesstimate, or otherwise ponder the qualities that make a good captain without "being there", getting a second-hand account from someone else who isn't there won't help. We're stuck with our fantasies here, in our minds' eyesies, lest we get called out for "not really knowing". Which is a bore. It took people YEARS to finally come around to the fact the Roy is bad for the team regardless of his stats. I'd list all the great captains I've observed in the 45 or so years I've watched pro hockey and explain what character traits were observable from my living room or the stands but I won't. According to you its not possible and frankly I don't have the time. We observe leaders all our lives in every aspect of our lives So to pick that guy or girl out of the crowd that steps forward and leads isn't reserved strictly for the mensa crowd. In my life it started with my father and went from there. Even in grade school there were those that lead and those that followed. So yes it is possible for those on this board to make that distinction. We're hard wired to either get in line or to step forward. Some can do both depending on the circumstances. So to be able to recognize it in others isn't a stretch.
... Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Hmmm... not sure I follow. A leader is a leader, regardless of what he/she is leading. The ability to motivate and hold accountable isn't reserved for certain positions when considered a leader, and I'm strictly assuming as I'm not an NHL'er, and SHOULDN'T exclude Hockey players. I guess, if I'm reading your post correctly, there are small differences with Hockey than there would be, say, in an office or in a different sport. The core traits should remain the same though I'd think. Those two qualities I mentioned above would be difficult to gauge when simply watching him as a fan, IMHO. That's all I really meant. Sorry if it came across as snarky or anything.... :blush: No, no. My bad. I shouldn't have posted at 2 in the morning being dog-tired. I was attempting to point out, poorly, that there always seem to be these qualifications for identifying traits in NHL players, and that often, we are told because we are not in the locker room or we don't know these guys personally, that we really don't know what we're talking about in the end. There are people (no one specifically, mind you) who try to shut down or invalidate a conversation like this based on the premise that "we really don't know". I don't agree with this. I think the lay-person can identify traits in players based on the data that is typically available to the fan (stats, observing on-ice behavior, off-ice activities, behavior and characteristics evident during interviews). And just like we can identify someone with captain potential, we can also identify people who may not do locker-room culture any good. I'd list all the great captains I've observed in the 45 or so years I've watched pro hockey and explain what character traits were observable from my living room or the stands but I won't. According to you its not possible and frankly I don't have the time. We observe leaders all our lives in every aspect of our lives So to pick that guy or girl out of the crowd that steps forward and leads isn't reserved strictly for the mensa crowd. In my life it started with my father and went from there. Even in grade school there were those that lead and those that followed. So yes it is possible for those on this board to make that distinction. We're hard wired to either get in line or to step forward. Some can do both depending on the circumstances. So to be able to recognize it in others isn't a stretch. Please see above. We're on the same page. I was trying to speak out against the mind-set that says the opposite, that we can not make these distinctions. Sorry for the confusion. I will try to avoid posting when I can't make a coherent point.
JKB1646 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I like Gerbe. We call him " Scrappy-Do"! but captain? Captain’s play like Gerbe but they also need that certain presence in the locker room and a workmen like attitude towards practice. How are we to know how any of these guys act in the locker room or practice? Trying to guess who should or would be a better captain than Pommers is all purely conjecture. I certainly wouldn’t pick a player to be captain for my team just because he is the best player during games…hell what you’ll have is OVI and he can barely speak in the locker room to his North American teammates.
That Aud Smell Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 FWIW, the F'N Arena was so quiet, you can hear me yell as the puck is coming to Gerbe. http://video.nhl.com...74&event=BUF602 was it you that "woooh-ed"?
... Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 was it you that "woooh-ed"? Actually I was yelling "Go, Gerbe, Go!" The video picks up the "Gerbe, Go..." as my volume increased during the yell.
RazielSabre Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Why? I just don't see that potential in him and I've not seen much or many that do. His a great kid but just because his short and plays hard doesn't make him a god amongst men. The guy has to play hard to get anywhere in this game because of his stature. I could be wrong, but thats the way I see it.
RazielSabre Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Name 10. I'm right in saying his supposed to protect this team, be some sort of enforcer? When you compare him to players like Konopka or Carcillo you know when their on the ice, I just don't get that impression with McCormick that he strikes fear into anyone. To be fair even Kaleta is less of a pest now so it might be a team think but I don't think he adds that enforcer dimension that is still necessary to at least some extent.
... Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 His a great kid but just because his short and plays hard doesn't make him a god amongst men. Are all NHL captains "god(s) amongst men"?
RazielSabre Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Are all NHL captains "god(s) amongst men"? No, but this has become a thread treating shorty as such.
lalalalalaFontaine Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I'm right in saying his supposed to protect this team, be some sort of enforcer? When you compare him to players like Konopka or Carcillo you know when their on the ice, I just don't get that impression with McCormick that he strikes fear into anyone. To be fair even Kaleta is less of a pest now so it might be a team think but I don't think he adds that enforcer dimension that is still necessary to at least some extent. IMO, I think Ruff has for whatever reason removed that "sandpaper" collectively from the team. These guys are forced to buy into his boring system and find the bench when they don't. Kaleta went out of his way to make the team's only hit against Edmonton and got a penalty for a clean hit. I would bet Ruff was in his ear about it. Kassian's game has gotten a lot less gritty the longer he has been here as well. Don't think it's a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if Gerbe has been told to be less physical because of his susceptibility to injury. Which would be a crying shame because he needs to be physical just to compete due to his size.
spndnchz Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 IMO, I think Ruff has for whatever reason removed that "sandpaper" collectively from the team. These guys are forced to buy into his boring system and find the bench when they don't. Kaleta went out of his way to make the team's only hit against Edmonton and got a penalty for a clean hit. I would bet Ruff was in his ear about it. Kassian's game has gotten a lot less gritty the longer he has been here as well. Don't think it's a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if Gerbe has been told to be less physical because of his susceptibility to injury. Which would be a crying shame because he needs to be physical just to compete due to his size. I think that the guys who follow the Amerks can attest that Kassian was the same way down there. I think overall he's wants to become a more 'skilled offensive' player than just some goon.
RazielSabre Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 IMO, I think Ruff has for whatever reason removed that "sandpaper" collectively from the team. These guys are forced to buy into his boring system and find the bench when they don't. Kaleta went out of his way to make the team's only hit against Edmonton and got a penalty for a clean hit. I would bet Ruff was in his ear about it. Kassian's game has gotten a lot less gritty the longer he has been here as well. Don't think it's a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if Gerbe has been told to be less physical because of his susceptibility to injury. Which would be a crying shame because he needs to be physical just to compete due to his size. 1) Ruff was known as a hard nosed player 2) This is the same coach who put Peters, Kaleta and i think Gausted out against Ottawa's top line when they hit Drury all those years ago 3) This league has shown that it clamps down on any kind of revenge or dodgy hit with severe penalties. 4) Kassian has been asked to play harder, thats why he was benched In short, I'm not so sure Ruffs to blame for this one. We can suspect his responsible for a lot, but the lack of physicality I'm not pinning on him.
Weave Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I'm right in saying his supposed to protect this team, be some sort of enforcer? When you compare him to players like Konopka or Carcillo you know when their on the ice, I just don't get that impression with McCormick that he strikes fear into anyone. To be fair even Kaleta is less of a pest now so it might be a team think but I don't think he adds that enforcer dimension that is still necessary to at least some extent. You've mentioned Carcillo twice (at least I think it was you the 1st time). Carcillo is not an enforcer. He's not even that big, about NHL average height and weight. The only people he strikes fear into are smaller timid players. He's an agitator with a screw loose. And not getting much playing time anymore.
fiftyone Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 Veteran is the key word here. You need someone who's been there, who has seen ups and downs and pushed through them. He doesn't need to wear a letter, but he needs to be able break guys down and build them up at the same time. Someday Gerbe might be that player, but it's not his time yet. Guys like Pommers or Roy should be our leaders, they do have veteran experience, but for some reason they don't display the things we want them to. They aren't true captains. I think the veteran part is part of the reason Pommer was named the captain of this team. Regehr is the other option that may come to mind, but I wonder if Lindy was trying to avoid another Rivet-like situation, where a veteran defenseman is brought in and immediately named captain. Pominville has been here and is an offensive leader. I'll also say that while Pominville doesn't fit the prototypical idea that we have of a captain, I think he has responded fairly well to the pressure and responsibility, at least on the ice. He is having a great year offensively, arguably scoring at a level that we may say he is over-achieving. It is also interesting to remember that Drury wasn't known to be a very vocal leader, but when he did his talking on the ice and when he rarely did speak, people listened. Of course I don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in the locker room, and I don't think Pominville is near what Drury was in his time as captain here, but I'm wondering if Lindy was hoping Pommer would follow that path to some extent.
lalalalalaFontaine Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 1) Ruff was known as a hard nosed player 2) This is the same coach who put Peters, Kaleta and i think Gausted out against Ottawa's top line when they hit Drury all those years ago 3) This league has shown that it clamps down on any kind of revenge or dodgy hit with severe penalties. 4) Kassian has been asked to play harder, thats why he was benched In short, I'm not so sure Ruffs to blame for this one. We can suspect his responsible for a lot, but the lack of physicality I'm not pinning on him. i just think R&R see eye to eye on what players will fit the system and it has become the perimeter guys... i know the league has a lot to do with what we're seeing but that doesn't mean you completely remove it from the lineup. and as far as kassian, i guess i'm going off of what i saw in his junior days. i think that's what most of us wanted to see with the big club.
Weave Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I think the veteran part is part of the reason Pommer was named the captain of this team. Regehr is the other option that may come to mind, but I wonder if Lindy was trying to avoid another Rivet-like situation, where a veteran defenseman is brought in and immediately named captain. Pominville has been here and is an offensive leader. I'll also say that while Pominville doesn't fit the prototypical idea that we have of a captain, I think he has responded fairly well to the pressure and responsibility, at least on the ice. He is having a great year offensively, arguably scoring at a level that we may say he is over-achieving. It is also interesting to remember that Drury wasn't known to be a very vocal leader, but when he did his talking on the ice and when he rarely did speak, people listened. Of course I don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in the locker room, and I don't think Pominville is near what Drury was in his time as captain here, but I'm wondering if Lindy was hoping Pommer would follow that path to some extent. Drury was certainly a vocal leader. He was a very commanding presence in the locker room. There are plenty of accounts that indicate it anyway.
Bmwolf21 Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I'm right in saying his supposed to protect this team, be some sort of enforcer? When you compare him to players like Konopka or Carcillo you know when their on the ice, I just don't get that impression with McCormick that he strikes fear into anyone. To be fair even Kaleta is less of a pest now so it might be a team think but I don't think he adds that enforcer dimension that is still necessary to at least some extent. I don't see McCormick as an enforcer. I see him as a physical grinder who will drop the gloves when necessary, but I don't see him in the heavyweight goon category. I think of him as player comparable to Adam Mair. 1) Ruff was known as a hard nosed player 2) This is the same coach who put Peters, Kaleta and i think Gausted out against Ottawa's top line when they hit Drury all those years ago 3) This league has shown that it clamps down on any kind of revenge or dodgy hit with severe penalties. 4) Kassian has been asked to play harder, thats why he was benched In short, I'm not so sure Ruffs to blame for this one. We can suspect his responsible for a lot, but the lack of physicality I'm not pinning on him. I forget where but there was talk a while back about how, in Ruff's system, players are coached not to go for the hit unless necessary because it takes them out of the play and encourages them to run around looking for the hit rather than playing the system.
darksabre Posted January 5, 2012 Report Posted January 5, 2012 I think the veteran part is part of the reason Pommer was named the captain of this team. Regehr is the other option that may come to mind, but I wonder if Lindy was trying to avoid another Rivet-like situation, where a veteran defenseman is brought in and immediately named captain. Pominville has been here and is an offensive leader. I'll also say that while Pominville doesn't fit the prototypical idea that we have of a captain, I think he has responded fairly well to the pressure and responsibility, at least on the ice. He is having a great year offensively, arguably scoring at a level that we may say he is over-achieving. It is also interesting to remember that Drury wasn't known to be a very vocal leader, but when he did his talking on the ice and when he rarely did speak, people listened. Of course I don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in the locker room, and I don't think Pominville is near what Drury was in his time as captain here, but I'm wondering if Lindy was hoping Pommer would follow that path to some extent. I agree with you on all counts. That is why I am reluctant to include him in my list of whipping boys. I think he's probably a leader, but not the kind that makes our team better. He needs someone to be the bad cop to his good cop.
bunomatic Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 No, no. My bad. I shouldn't have posted at 2 in the morning being dog-tired. I was attempting to point out, poorly, that there always seem to be these qualifications for identifying traits in NHL players, and that often, we are told because we are not in the locker room or we don't know these guys personally, that we really don't know what we're talking about in the end. There are people (no one specifically, mind you) who try to shut down or invalidate a conversation like this based on the premise that "we really don't know". I don't agree with this. I think the lay-person can identify traits in players based on the data that is typically available to the fan (stats, observing on-ice behavior, off-ice activities, behavior and characteristics evident during interviews). And just like we can identify someone with captain potential, we can also identify people who may not do locker-room culture any good. Please see above. We're on the same page. I was trying to speak out against the mind-set that says the opposite, that we can not make these distinctions. Sorry for the confusion. I will try to avoid posting when I can't make a coherent point. No maybe I wasn't reading it right. My post wasn't meant to call you out. I was just sayin that its not that hard to pick those that can lead. I guess we're on the same page.
billsrcursed Posted January 6, 2012 Report Posted January 6, 2012 No, no. My bad. I shouldn't have posted at 2 in the morning being dog-tired. I was attempting to point out, poorly, that there always seem to be these qualifications for identifying traits in NHL players, and that often, we are told because we are not in the locker room or we don't know these guys personally, that we really don't know what we're talking about in the end. There are people (no one specifically, mind you) who try to shut down or invalidate a conversation like this based on the premise that "we really don't know". I don't agree with this. I think the lay-person can identify traits in players based on the data that is typically available to the fan (stats, observing on-ice behavior, off-ice activities, behavior and characteristics evident during interviews). And just like we can identify someone with captain potential, we can also identify people who may not do locker-room culture any good. No worries. I'm all for discussion for sure. I'm just not sure how much we're able to gain by on-ice activity in terms of leadership qualities. You brought up some other great points, though, in regards to off-ice stuff. Charity work, interviews, etc. can and should all be used as well. They cut to the locker room during one of the intermissions the last game (it was the intermission directly after Hecht had to leave the ice because of some skate issues) and when Hecht was walking in with his skate, Pominville was sitting there chatting it up with other guys, and appeared to question Hecht about his skate. Not sure there is much there, but it beats seeing him with a towel over his head not saying anything, and I think examples like this play to your points. Good stuff!
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