spndnchz Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Posted December 21, 2011 Players get a plus if they are on the ice for an even strength goal for, and a minus for an even strength goal against. No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against...and no plus is given for a powerplay goal for. However, you do get a minus if you give up a shorty...and a plus if your team scores a shorty. "No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against you do get a minus if you give up a shorty" Is my head cloudy or huh?
LaLaLaFontaine Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 We have to agree to disagree I guess. While team +/- is the sole reason for playing the game, individual +/- is based so much on chance of being on the ice and having nothing to do with the goal that is scored, for or against, that it is not a good indication of play level. Coupled with the fact, that as I stated earlier, this metric does not take into account the quality of opposition that the player is facing. MAG has a high +/- because he consistently plays against the other teams weakest line where the team as a whole has a higher chance of scoring and a higher chance of not letting in a goal. Does anyone want to argue that MAG is a better player than Regher based on a higher +/-? (who is matched up against the top line every game) No he is not nearly in one league with Regehr, but i think he is less worse than Weber. Nothing more.
SwampD Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 We have to agree to disagree I guess. While team +/- is the sole reason for playing the game, individual +/- is based so much on chance of being on the ice and having nothing to do with the goal that is scored, for or against, that it is not a good indication of play level. Coupled with the fact, that as I stated earlier, this metric does not take into account the quality of opposition that the player is facing. MAG has a high +/- because he consistently plays against the other teams weakest line where the team as a whole has a higher chance of scoring and a higher chance of not letting in a goal. Does anyone want to argue that MAG is a better player than Regher based on a higher +/-? (who is matched up against the top line every game) So now there is no accountabilty for a player's own +/-, either? I guess they can just blame it on bad luck or chance. Doesn't MAG play against the same level of competition as Weber, anyway?
beerme1 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 I don't say he is a great defender or a good one, but i think he sucks less than Weber. Of course not, that would have been another game. As i stated above, I think MAG is the better choice of two underperforming defenders. In this case Webers mistake cost us probably the game. He has an NHL heart combined with AHL talent ( just like Ellis). Leopold made two mistake for the first Ottawa goal, so he is to blame for this loss too. Generally the whole team and coaching staff is to blame, but this doesn't cool down the anger as good as blaming one or two players. Can I ask you what color your sky is?
SwampD Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 "No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against you do get a minus if you give up a shorty" Is my head cloudy or huh? My vote is cloudy. If you are shorthanded and get scored on - no minus. If you are on the PP and get scored on - minus
dEnnis the Menace Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 "No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against you do get a minus if you give up a shorty" Is my head cloudy or huh? I had to re-read it like 3 or 4 times before I realized he meant PP vs PK goals.
qwksndmonster Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 "No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against you do get a minus if you give up a shorty" Is my head cloudy or huh? -He was trying to say that you don't get a minus when on the penalty kill. -I don't feel as if I'm in the mental state to judge today. Talk to me tomorrow after my graveyard shitft and subsequent 13 hour sleep.
GloveSave Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 "No minus is given if your on for a shorthanded goal against you do get a minus if you give up a shorty" Is my head cloudy or huh? My bad...it made sense when i wrote it plus=on for a goal for minus=on for a goal against plus=on for a shorthanded goal for minus=on for a shorthanded against no plus=on for a powerplay goal for no minus=on for a powerplay goal against is this better??
Samson's Flow Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 So now there is no accountabilty for a player's own +/-, either? I guess they can just blame it on bad luck or chance. Doesn't MAG play against the same level of competition as Weber, anyway? I wouldn't go that far, but I can't stand when people say "X player is a +10, while player Y has a -2, therefore player X has to be better" and don't take into consideration the circumstances that resulted in each player having their respective +/- rating. While this is laborous and tiresome for the whole league, we as Sabres fans watch every game and can make qualitative analysis of each player. Just using one stat that favors your opinion is lazy arguing. That being said, Weber has definitely made some defensive zone gaffes that have attributed to his lousy +/-, but it is mostly rookie type mistakes (over aggressive hitting attempt, out of position, etc.) rather than getting flat out beaten IMO. MAG looks very unsure when he is pressured in his own zone, will not take the man in front, and is weak physically along the sideboards relying on the poke check based on my game observations. Come playoff time, that style of play is less effective.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 For everyone railing Weber, which is fine because he sucked......why didn't i see 30 posts on how HE WON the Leaf game for us? Like all good D-men in Buffalo are taught to do, he was backpeddling through his own blueline....then said "F-It!", and stood up and destroyed the Leaf forward, leaving an empty puck for Roy to send Vanek on a breakaway for the 5th goal. 80% of the roster doesn't have that play in them to make. Carry on.
Eleven Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 I like Weber and want him in the lineup for a long time. He and Chewie screwed up bigtime last night, though.
dEnnis the Menace Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 For everyone railing Weber, which is fine because he sucked......why didn't i see 30 posts on how HE WON the Leaf game for us? Like all good D-men in Buffalo are taught to do, he was backpeddling through his own blueline....then said "F-It!", and stood up and destroyed the Leaf forward, leaving an empty puck for Roy to send Vanek on a breakaway for the 5th goal. 80% of the roster doesn't have that play in them to make. Carry on. well said. I absolutely loved him in the Leafs game. Didn't watch much of the Pens game. but he didn't look as awful in the sens game as people are saying IMO.
Iron Crotch Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 For everyone railing Weber, which is fine because he sucked......why didn't i see 30 posts on how HE WON the Leaf game for us? Like all good D-men in Buffalo are taught to do, he was backpeddling through his own blueline....then said "F-It!", and stood up and destroyed the Leaf forward, leaving an empty puck for Roy to send Vanek on a breakaway for the 5th goal. 80% of the roster doesn't have that play in them to make. Carry on. For everyone railing Weber, which is fine because he sucked......why didn't i see 30 posts on how HE WON the Leaf game for us? Like all good D-men in Buffalo are taught to do, he was backpeddling through his own blueline....then said "F-It!", and stood up and destroyed the Leaf forward, leaving an empty puck for Roy to send Vanek on a breakaway for the 5th goal. 80% of the roster doesn't have that play in them to make. Carry on. The problem is that that is the only goal the Sabres have scored all season when Weber was on the ice. Personally, I think both MAG and Weber are equally as adept at coughing up the puck in their own zone. Obviously Weber is more physical, which most of us like. And, maybe MAG has been a bit luckier than Weber in that his gaffes haven't turned into goals as often. But, MAG clearly brings more in terms of helping his team score than Weber does. In 7 games, we've only scored one goal while Weber was on the ice, while in 30 games we've scored 28 even-strength goals and 11 power play goals when MAG was out there. And Weber averages more even-strength TOI than MAG does. http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122BUFSASALL&sort=plusMinus&viewName=plusMinus Personally, I think the Hoff has been the biggest disappointment thus far on both ends of the ice, yet he gets a pass while we argue over MAG and Weber's relative suckiness. The Hoff leads us in even strength ice time by a huge margin so his -9 really stands out to me.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 I like Weber and want him in the lineup for a long time. He and Chewie screwed up bigtime last night, though. True Weber has been tenative this year. I think his head got screwed up because he is only in the lineup because of injuries. i have seen guys skate around him like he is afraid of having a penalty called on him for just getting his mitts up and naturally pushing a guy off the puck with leverage. The entire D is constantly in retreat mode now. I still can't explain the poise I saw Gragnani display in the playoffs last year versus his play this year. Maybe it was Trent Edwards syndrome....we saw his best play in his first dozen games.
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 Personally, I think the Hoff has been the biggest disappointment thus far on both ends of the ice, yet he gets a pass while we argue over MAG and Weber's relative suckiness. The Hoff leads us in even strength ice time by a huge margin so his -9 really stands out to me. I think Ehrhoffs game has improved greatly since the beginning if the season. He maintained a -2 while the team was playing well, but he certainly was not. Since then, injuries have taken out bodies like Myers, and when leopold went down along with a few other key D-men, i thought he stepped his game up tremendously. the -9 he currently sports is indicative of the overall terrible play the team has been bringing to the rink the past month or so, and to judge him soley on that is very short sighted. Is he worth his contract? Not quite yet, but I'm confident he'll get there, he's already close IMO. +/- might be a fun stat to look at come seasons end, but it's not really a great indicator of individual performance, so much as overall team performance, and in our case, I'm not surprised we have tons of players in the red right now.
Bmwolf21 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 Chills...love "Unforgiven". Can't believe it took that long for someone to recognize. They've also got three d-men with more points than any of our d-men. I'm sorry, I haven't read a word of your posts since you changed avatars. :devil: My vote is cloudy. If you are shorthanded and get scored on - no minus. If you are on the PP and get scored on - minus Bingo.
spndnchz Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Posted December 21, 2011 For those wondering (big stink in Ottawa) Gaustad is NOT having a hearing on his hit to Winchester (got concussion). Not that I think he should.
Samson's Flow Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 The problem is that that is the only goal the Sabres have scored all season when Weber was on the ice. Personally, I think both MAG and Weber are equally as adept at coughing up the puck in their own zone. Obviously Weber is more physical, which most of us like. And, maybe MAG has been a bit luckier than Weber in that his gaffes haven't turned into goals as often. But, MAG clearly brings more in terms of helping his team score than Weber does. In 7 games, we've only scored one goal while Weber was on the ice, while in 30 games we've scored 28 even-strength goals and 11 power play goals when MAG was out there. And Weber averages more even-strength TOI than MAG does. http://www.nhl.com/i...wName=plusMinus Highlighted in red: To me that is indicative of the weakness at Center that this team has. The rest of the league, for the most part, can have stay at home bruising defensemen who don't have to focus on bringing the puck up ice to start the rush. On this team, however, the sabres have no forwards who can bring the puck up consistently, resulting in LR's huge emphasis on puck moving defensemen who can help our useless forwards carry the puck up ice and gain the zone. No offense while Weber is out there is because that is not his skillset, and without a d-man to help gain the zone, the sabres as a team just can't do it. Thats how I see it at least B-)
SDS Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 In our lives there are lots of glasses that float between empty to full - but think about the beauty of just having the cup. - Priceless "In our lives there are lots of glasses that float between empty to full - but think about the beauty of just having the cup." Isn't the author of that quote "2 girls"? :angel:
spndnchz Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Posted December 21, 2011 So now there is no accountabilty for a player's own +/-, either? I guess they can just blame it on bad luck or chance. Doesn't MAG play against the same level of competition as Weber, anyway? Gaustad was a +3 in the 8-3 loss to the Pens. Malkin was a plus +1 and had five points. I use plus/minus a lot in evaluating players but it's not the end all. "In our lives there are lots of glasses that float between empty to full - but think about the beauty of just having the cup." Isn't the author of that quote "2 girls"? :angel: :sick:
Sabre Dance Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 Thank you for this post. Merry Christmas all. Try not to be too angry. Not really angry, just frustrated. I was trying to be a tad humorous, but I was sincere about the holiday wishes...
LabattBlue Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 Gaustad was a +3 in the 8-3 loss to the Pens. Malkin was a plus +1 and had five points. I use plus/minus a lot in evaluating players but it's not the end all. I agree about +/- not being the be all end all. If Vancouver threw out there #5-6 blueliners constantly with the Sedin's, those defensemen would be +100 by the end of the season. Doesn't mean they are good in their own end.
Iron Crotch Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 Highlighted in red: To me that is indicative of the weakness at Center that this team has. The rest of the league, for the most part, can have stay at home bruising defensemen who don't have to focus on bringing the puck up ice to start the rush. On this team, however, the sabres have no forwards who can bring the puck up consistently, resulting in LR's huge emphasis on puck moving defensemen who can help our useless forwards carry the puck up ice and gain the zone. No offense while Weber is out there is because that is not his skillset, and without a d-man to help gain the zone, the sabres as a team just can't do it. Thats how I see it at least B-) That makes sense to me. Our system does seem to put a lot of pressure on the d-men to do a little bit of everything. I was just tooling around with some stats and what jumped out was how little we've scored when our stay-at-home guys were on the ice (Regehr, Weber) relative to the puck-mover types. I watch almost every game and am not enamored with stats, but some just jump out at you. If we have to have puck moving d-men to score goals then I can see why Lindy has favored MAG over Weber. I agree about +/- not being the be all end all. If Vancouver threw out there 5-6 blueliners constantly with the Sedin's, those defensemen would be +100 by the end of the season. Doesn't mean they are good in their own end. This could be taken as a veiled jab at Ehrhoff, ya know. :D
LabattBlue Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 This could be taken as a veiled jab at Ehrhoff, ya know. :D Never crossed my mind. :angel:
waldo Posted December 21, 2011 Report Posted December 21, 2011 For everyone railing Weber, which is fine because he sucked......why didn't i see 30 posts on how HE WON the Leaf game for us? Like all good D-men in Buffalo are taught to do, he was backpeddling through his own blueline....then said "F-It!", and stood up and destroyed the Leaf forward, leaving an empty puck for Roy to send Vanek on a breakaway for the 5th goal. 80% of the roster doesn't have that play in them to make. Carry on. good point
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