Concussions in the NHL, Waiting for Science

[korab rules]

I'd pay to see that.

I'll buy the foam.

[dEnnis the Menace]

So what are you trying to say SDS, that we don't advance as a civilization? Or that we can't design a safer helmet?

 

Line 1 was directed at your line of "the hans device and safer barrier are rather new to racing" a few posts back. If 13 and 25 years are rather new to you, then sure. His point is that they've been around

 

line 2 is directed at your comment that foam should be on the outside. He is further reinforcing what MP said and I agreed with that the best way to stop concussions is being implemented in the fundamentals (hard outside, soft inside).

 

By the way. I don't live with my head in the sand, in fact, as a 23 year old mechanical engineer with my BS, MEng and a few years from the last part of my PE, I live in an ever changing world of in innovation. The fundamentals don't usually change though. When you study mechanics, system dynamics, and other mechanical engineering topics, the fundamentals stay pretty much the same. that's the main point that we were trying to get across. Look at football. they started with soft helmets. how'd that work out? If it were that easy, and trust me, you are not the first to think of that, they would've changed the fundamentals. just saying.

[Figster]

I'll buy the foam.

 

 

I'll use my helmet wrapped in bubble wrap, you guys use your hard shell helmet and lets so who can smash there head into a wall at a faster speed.

[Bmwolf21]

I'll buy the foam.

 

I'll bring the popcorn.

[Figster]

I appreciate the discussion/debate fellas...

[MattPie]

So what are you trying to say SDS, that we don't advance as a civilization? Or that we can't design a safer helmet? When I say we, mankind I mean,(hehe, not me)

 

That's not it at all, just that there are certain physics that you just can't overcome. The human head can only take a certain number of Gs before damage occurs. the layering of the padding doesn't matter when you're talking about acceleration. It's just distance and time. I think you're also wrong about two hard objects repelling each other when they collide. It's actually the opposite: the 'bounce' is from compression of the two objects. If you had two identical, perfectly hard objects (billiard balls are pretty close) and they hit each other square, they will both stop. If you try that with two rubber balls, they'll bounce.

 

The real answer is a thicker helmet (with a hard shell) so there's softer padding to slow the head down at a lower rate.

 

But, let me ask this question: assuming human beings evolved to our present state and a softer outside shell is the right solution, how come humans don't have an inch of muscle or fat around our noggins (Mike Milbury excluded)?

[Figster]

That's not it at all, just that there are certain physics that you just can't overcome. The human head can only take a certain number of Gs before damage occurs. the layering of the padding doesn't matter when you're talking about acceleration. It's just distance and time. I think you're also wrong about two hard objects repelling each other when they collide. It's actually the opposite: the 'bounce' is from compression of the two objects. If you had two identical, perfectly hard objects (billiard balls are pretty close) and they hit each other square, they will both stop. If you try that with two rubber balls, they'll bounce.

 

The real answer is a thicker helmet (with a hard shell) so there's softer padding to slow the head down at a lower rate.

 

But, let me ask this question: assuming human beings evolved to our present state and a softer outside shell is the right solution, how come humans don't have an inch of muscle or fat around our noggins (Mike Milbury excluded)?

 

 

Well, I've done pissed SDS off now and I'm done arguing about it. I would like to see you try your theory out with a couple of billiard balls

 

I've explained my point of view on the subject...

[Bmwolf21]

Well, I've done pissed SDS off now and I'm done arguing about it.

 

I've explained my point of view on the subject...

 

And so has SDS, and that is that there IS a ton of money and research already going into the issues, and that it is unlikely that a layman with no engineering background is going to find the fix that all the experts have been researching ad nauseum.

[Figster]

And so has SDS, and that is that there IS a ton of money and research already going into the issues, and that it is unlikely that a layman with no engineering background is going to find the fix that all the experts have been researching ad nauseum.

 

 

1st and foremost I would like to say I have the utmost respect for SDS whom I deem is a very intelligent individual. It was not my intention to disrespect him or anyone else who disagrees with me. It actually sounds to me If theres anyone on this site that has the knowledge of what it would take to design/ build and then test the better helmet, its SDS.

 

Even a layman could tell you its safer to run head long into a padded wall vs a solid wall. Even a layman can tell you once a horrific collison occurs theres no turning back. Dale Sr thought the Hans device was more of a nuisance that could actually cause more injury then it could save lives, it took losing his life before people decided enough was enough and it doesn't have to be that way in other sports. We know high speed helmet to helmet collisons are causing severe neck and head injury to athletes so regardless of how it looks or what it cost its something that has to be addressed.

 

There are some who believe the more we do to protect players, the more they become human projectiles and in a way its probably true...

[shrader]

Even a layman could tell you

 

A layman can tell you a lot of things. That doesn't mean they're always right.

[korab rules]

A layman can tell you a lot of things. That doesn't mean they're always right.

Good find! Looks like the invention was received the same way over there as it was here.

[dEnnis the Menace]

A layman can tell you a lot of things. That doesn't mean they're always right.

 

Wow...I read to the post about "A bigger splash means a harder impact" :w00t: nope...just means more surface area contacting the water, nothing to do with force of the impact (in fact, it's less of an impact because you're spreading the force out across the body more...just stings more because of it /Physics lesson).

 

Anyways, that thread made my head hurt.

 

It's a mirror image of this thread though. A few posters present facts, he presents opinions, and we're wrong...interesting.

[SDS]

1st and foremost I would like to say I have the utmost respect for SDS whom I deem is a very intelligent individual. It was not my intention to disrespect him or anyone else who disagrees with me. It actually sounds to me If theres anyone on this site that has the knowledge of what it would take to design/ build and then test the better helmet, its SDS.

 

Even a layman could tell you its safer to run head long into a padded wall vs a solid wall. Even a layman can tell you once a horrific collison occurs theres no turning back. Dale Sr thought the Hans device was more of a nuisance that could actually cause more injury then it could save lives, it took losing his life before people decided enough was enough and it doesn't have to be that way in other sports. We know high speed helmet to helmet collisons are causing severe neck and head injury to athletes so regardless of how it looks or what it cost its something that has to be addressed.

 

There are some who believe the more we do to protect players, the more they become human projectiles and in a way its probably true...

 

Let me google that for you.... 2nd link.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=padding+outside+of+helemet

[shrader]

Anyways, that thread made my head hurt.

 

I love a good pun.

[dEnnis the Menace]

 

I love a good pun.

 

glad you picked it up old timer :P

[korab rules]

Let me google that for you.... 2nd link.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q...side+of+helemet

Interesting. Experts say what we said. http://www.helmethut.com/Dr.Ken5.html

[dEnnis the Menace]

Interesting. Experts say what we said. http://www.helmethut.com/Dr.Ken5.html

 

"the exterior padded helmet had the opposite effect (of a quick helmet deflection) as the crevice shape and leather like surface of the exterior pad caused the helmet to cling to or grab the object it was colliding with. Under these circumstances the helmet would absorb rather than deflect the full force of the collision and transfer this force to a player's susceptible neck region." With increased time of impact contact, there would be an expected increase in rotational acceleration and a higher probability of injury."

 

Imagine that...

[Figster]

Let me google that for you.... 2nd link.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q...side+of+helemet

 

Good read SDS , thanks, although I don't know If I agree with the assesment that increasing the time of impact is a bad thing. If a race car for instance hits a safer barrier naturally the time of impact is expanded , but the amount of impact is reduced which is more important in my opinion. I do however agree added weight also plays an important factor and how it would relate to neck injury. A happy medium with padding on both sides, hard shell in the middle, would be most beneficial seems to me.

 

Note: By way of deflection I do understand part of the thought process/problem, but with the amount of square hits that are occuring in the sports world/ helmet to helmet at high imact something has to be done.Outer padding increases the amount of surface mass contacted resulting in an expanded energy dispertion/less overall impact to the brain. On the other hand you can't increase overall injuries,(probably more so to the neck), because of the amount of friction created, so in a nut shell, there in lies the dilema,

 

can we do soft and slick...

[dEnnis the Menace]

Good read SDS , thanks, although I don't know If I agree with the assesment that increasing the time of impact is a bad thing. If a race car for instance hits a safer barrier naturally the time of impact is expanded , but the amount of impact is reduced which is more important in my opinion.

 

there's a lot more to it than time of impact. when evaluating these, engineers are looking at the energy transferred due to impulse at impact. If time of impact with the head is increased, more energy is transferred from one body to the other, meaning that if rotational force is in the conversation, there is even more whiplash, and more risk of concussion because the brain is sloshing around harder.

 

you cannot just choose to disagree with proven facts because you feel like it! physics is very hard to prove wrong.

[Figster]

there's a lot more to it than time of impact. when evaluating these, engineers are looking at the energy transferred due to impulse at impact. If time of impact with the head is increased, more energy is transferred from one body to the other, meaning that if rotational force is in the conversation, there is even more whiplash, and more risk of concussion because the brain is sloshing around harder.

 

you cannot just choose to disagree with proven facts because you feel like it! physics is very hard to prove wrong.

 

Let me ask you something, would you not agree that soft is better then hard when you smash into it?

[darksabre]

I once told my plumber I was going to do some plumbing work on my own in the house. He asked me what I did and I told him I was an engineer... He replied with, "You don't see me doing engineering do you?"

 

It was clear what he meant.

 

A billion helmets are made in the world. I find it hard to believe they are all made fundamentally wrong, despite the designs of the experts in the field, despite the investments put down by Mark Messier and his special helmet project, and the answer lies in the common sense of the layman. I just don't buy it.

 

Comments like this are what stunts innovation. Some of the best inventors in the world were just Joe-Schmo's at home. Telling someone they can't have opinions or ideas on something like helmets because they don't have a professional background in it is juvenile.

[dEnnis the Menace]

Let me ask you something, would you not agree that soft is better then hard when you smash into it?

 

kind of. There's a lot more to it than just that though. When you put all of the components together, there is a lot more to soft vs hard. What prevents the most damage in ALL cases? let me ask you a question. as a construction worker, do you wear a hard hat, or soft hat? what is going to protect you more from a falling object? a hat that will crush due to the acceleration of a downward falling object, transferring most of the falling objects energy to your head, or one that will sustain most of the blow, transferring only a margin of the energy to your head?

 

It's the same concept in hockey. When someones elbow is flying at your head (albeit illegally), I would rather have a hard helmet with a foam core that will absorb most of the energy of blow BEFORE it gets to my head. A soft helmet altogether (no hard plastic parts) will absorb the initial energy, but the follow thru, and impulse will travel elsewhere, causing more whiplash and a concussion. A hard core will only directly transfer the energy straight onto your head. It's hard to explain to someone with an engineering background let alone someone without.

 

and Carter, SDS's comment there isn't trying to stunt innovation, it's just saying that if you know absolutely nothing about something you're setting out to do, you better research the topic a little bit more than "smash your head on a brick wall" or "smash two billiard balls together". Knowledge of how the human brain reacts to impact inside the skull, and a little physics is needed before you can say that everyone else who has a background on the topic is wrong. I'm all for innovation. I mean, hell, an electrical engineer on my senior design project learned fluid dynamics and actually solved a problem that two of us Mech E's couldn't. But before she said well, it should be this way, she learned a lot of the fundamentals of the heart, the circulatory system, and some basic fluids equations (our senior design project was to develop a working heart surgery training simulator for LVAD implantations for Strong Hospital in ROC.) A little more research and not discounting a lot of DOCUMENTED FACTS will go a long way.

[darksabre]

kind of. There's a lot more to it than just that though. When you put all of the components together, there is a lot more to soft vs hard. What prevents the most damage in ALL cases? let me ask you a question. as a construction worker, do you wear a hard hat, or soft hat? what is going to protect you more from a falling object? a hat that will crush due to the acceleration of a downward falling object, transferring most of the falling objects energy to your head, or one that will sustain most of the blow, transferring only a margin of the energy to your head?

 

It's the same concept in hockey. When someones elbow is flying at your head (albeit illegally), I would rather have a hard helmet with a foam core that will absorb most of the energy of blow BEFORE it gets to my head. A soft helmet altogether (no hard plastic parts) will absorb the initial energy, but the follow thru, and impulse will travel elsewhere, causing more whiplash and a concussion. A hard core will only directly transfer the energy straight onto your head. It's hard to explain to someone with an engineering background let alone someone without.

 

and Carter, SDS's comment there isn't trying to stunt innovation, it's just saying that if you know absolutely nothing about something you're setting out to do, you better research the topic a little bit more than "smash your head on a brick wall" or "smash two billiard balls together". Knowledge of how the human brain reacts to impact inside the skull, and a little physics is needed before you can say that everyone else who has a background on the topic is wrong. I'm all for innovation. I mean, hell, an electrical engineer on my senior design project learned fluid dynamics and actually solved a problem that two of us Mech E's couldn't. But before she said well, it should be this way, she learned a lot of the fundamentals of the heart, the circulatory system, and some basic fluids equations (our senior design project was to develop a working heart surgery training simulator for LVAD implantations for Strong Hospital in ROC.) A little more research and not discounting a lot of DOCUMENTED FACTS will go a long way.

 

My issue isn't with his later points. My issue is that he led his argument by punching dog in the mouth and then trying to bring reason into it. You don't start a fight and then try and have a conversation.

[MattPie]

Let me ask you something, would you not agree that soft is better then hard when you smash into it?

 

You are entirely right, which I why I want all the soft between me and hard shell of the helmet. You're using the wrong frame of reference. We don't care in the least how fast the helmet itself stops, that can be instant. We only care about how fast the head inside it stops, so increasing the time and distance that slow down happens only works with an increased thickness of softer padding. Inside the helmet.

 

Bringing this back to Mark Kelso's helmet (isn't there someone on the board with that nickname?), I'm sure it actually was better than the standard helmet of the time. The problem is that it would have been *even better* to have had and XXXXL shell fitted with double padding on the inside.

[dEnnis the Menace]

My issue isn't with his later points. My issue is that he led his argument by punching dog in the mouth and then trying to bring reason into it. You don't start a fight and then try and have a conversation.

 

Point received, and now I see what you meant

 

You are entirely right, which I why I want all the soft between me and hard shell of the helmet. You're using the wrong frame of reference. We don't care in the least how fast the helmet itself stops, that can be instant. We only care about how fast the head inside it stops, so increasing the time and distance that slow down happens only works with an increased thickness of softer padding. Inside the helmet.

 

Bringing this back to Mark Kelso's helmet (isn't there someone on the board with that nickname?), I'm sure it actually was better than the standard helmet of the time. The problem is that it would have been *even better* to have had and XXXXL shell fitted with double padding on the inside.

 

+1