I know it's the wrong time but Darcy has made some good picks

[Sabre Dance]

Stafford Scored over 30 goals last year... and MacArthur was a 20 goal, 60 point guy on a 1 million dollar a year contract... Paille is a great piece on that Boston team that is probably the best in the NHL. I wouldnt say any of them are that bad, some just couldnt do it here.

 

The best thing Paille ever did for himself was to play badly enough in Buffalo to get moved to the Bruins. If I were him, I'd come back to Buffalo, look up all my former teammates and show them my Stanley Cup ring. Wait...maybe he did and the rest of the Sabres are trying to get moved to another team. THAT'S why they are playing so badly!

[carpandean]

Paille was a role player and as good there as he was here, people don't expect anything more from him there. That is the difference. Biron was a decent starter here and is now a successful backup, not sure how thats better. As soon as Campbell got good here (which is what happened), we bailed on him (see Drury/Briere).

I'll second all of this. I've stated the case on Paille numerous time (as have others), and I'll stick by my "better off, not better" characterization. Biron's play and numbers after Buffalo weren't really any different than here, and Campbell was basically on the same level as he had reached here before leaving. In both those cases, the player didn't change much, they simply carried on as a they were. You can fault the organization from trading those players, but not one of them is an example of a player getting better after leaving. So far, the closest example of that is MacArthur, two years and two teams later, being put on a top line and producing a little more consistently. One player does not a pattern make, especially when you're talking about a player who was still pretty young (about to turn 25) when traded. I'm all for replacing Darcy and even Lindy (as long as Darcy goes, too), but not because I've seen players leave and get much better.

 

My bigger point would be that teams with rosters made up largely of their own draft picks will tend to have higher "hit rates" in terms of players ending up playing in the NHL. That really only means much if the team is really good or, at least, has some solid stars. Otherwise, it could just mean that you are keeping players around that other teams would want in their lineups, anyway.

[HopefulFuture]

hmmm... well you would be fired faster than him I think. I would probably start with myers, vanek and pominville.... oh wait they did? ok then I would let them continue to improve and get healthy...

 

lol, I didn't include the defensive ranks because I feel in a year or 2 the defense will be just fine.

It's the offensive ranks that have concerned me for 4 seasons now. And from the looks of it. The center position will concern many fans for some time to come.

 

Paille was a role player and as good there as he was here, people don't expect anything more from him there. That is the difference. Biron was a decent starter here and is now a successful backup, not sure how thats better. As soon as Campbell got good here (which is what happened), we bailed on him (see Drury/Briere).

 

I agree it wouldn't hurt to lose Reiger and bring in someone with a little less petrified of change or risk but Ruff I think is a good coach and we won't do better with the guys out there.

Could be correct on this.

Then again, I don't know how much longer Regier has here. I'd would just like a different philosophy in the management side from this organization.

13 seasons, 14 years now. It's getting old.

[carpandean]

The center position will concern many fans for some time to come.

This, alone, should be enough to fire Darcy. You can't tell me that his hand were so tied that he couldn't start any of the last five seasons with a center depth-chart any deeper than:

 

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair, Ellis

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Niedermayer, McCormick

Roy, Adam, Hecht, Leino, Boyes, Goose, McCormick

(Italics indicates a converted winger or bottom-line center, at best)

 

That meant that every season started with "we'll be fine as long as Timmy is healthy," which should have be followed with "but if he isn't, we'll be counted on a converting winger, again, if he is healthy." I'm not saying that we needed Crosby, Malkin, Staal or Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski (obviously, that would be nice), but there's a lot of room in between. They finally walked away from Connolly and brought in a guy who doesn't want to play center?!

[Sabres Fan in NS]

My way of thinking has not altered. I firmly believe Regeir and Ruff should have been gone years ago.

A fresh start is what the organization needs.

 

But I also look at the assets in the players, there is quite a bit here that could be moved for a complete rebuild and this coming draft is supposed to be deep.

If It were me in Pegula's shoes, I'd go for the entire rebuild and leave Adam's, Kassian and Ennis as the pieces that I would start with.

 

Another sarcasm meter on the fritz ...

[RazielSabre]

This, alone, should be enough to fire Darcy. You can't tell me that his hand were so tied that he couldn't start any of the last five seasons with a center depth-chart any deeper than:

 

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Mair, Ellis

Roy, Connolly, Hecht, Goose, Niedermayer, McCormick

Roy, Adam, Hecht, Leino, Boyes, Goose, McCormick

(Italics indicates a converted winger or bottom-line center, at best)

 

That meant that every season started with "we'll be fine as long as Timmy is healthy," which should have be followed with "but if he isn't, we'll be counted on a converting winger, again, if he is healthy." I'm not saying that we needed Crosby, Malkin, Staal or Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski (obviously, that would be nice), but there's a lot of room in between. They finally walked away from Connolly and brought in a guy who doesn't want to play center?!

 

OBVIOUSLY because Leino was the ONLY C or near-C available who wasn't named Richards. :doh: [/sarcasm]

[ROCBuffalo]

I think they do a nice job drafting. We are too small but like you said we are getting better. Adam can be a # 1 center. Kassian looks like a 2nd like winger. But we don't have a game changer and need a face of the franchise besides a goalie.

[FolignosJock]

I think they do a nice job drafting. We are too small but like you said we are getting better. Adam can be a # 1 center. Kassian looks like a 2nd like winger. But we don't have a game changer and need a face of the franchise besides a goalie.

 

Who are the game changers in the NHL right now? How many are there?

[korab rules]

Who are the game changers in the NHL right now? How many are there?

And how often are they drafted outside the top three or reach the free agency/trade market?

[FolignosJock]

And how often are they drafted outside the top three or reach the free agency/trade market?

 

EXACTLY Vanek is as near to a game changer as most in the league right now and our highest pick in a while.

[spndnchz]

Semi-relevant to the discussion. Last year I took a look at how many picks DR has given up and how many he got back over his years here.

 

We gave 2 first round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 7 second round picks away and got 12 back.

 

We gave 5 third round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 8 fourth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

We gave 5 fifth round picks away and got 8 back.

 

We gave 3 sixth round picks away and got 1 back.

 

We gave 2 seventh round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 2 eighth round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 1 ninth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

 

Darcy likes those 2nd round picks don't he?

[FolignosJock]

Semi-relevant to the discussion. Last year I took a look at how many picks DR has given up and how many he got back over his years here.

 

We gave 2 first round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 7 second round picks away and got 12 back.

 

We gave 5 third round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 8 fourth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

We gave 5 fifth round picks away and got 8 back.

 

We gave 3 sixth round picks away and got 1 back.

 

We gave 2 seventh round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 2 eighth round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 1 ninth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

 

Darcy likes those 2nd round picks don't he?

 

I wonder how that compares to the rest of the GMs.... still that looks good. Though Drury, Briere and Campbell could be considered multiple first rounders.... There has to be an algorith somewhere that could figure out GM rankings.

[korab rules]

Semi-relevant to the discussion. Last year I took a look at how many picks DR has given up and how many he got back over his years here.

 

We gave 2 first round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 7 second round picks away and got 12 back.

 

We gave 5 third round picks away and got 4 back.

 

We gave 8 fourth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

We gave 5 fifth round picks away and got 8 back.

 

We gave 3 sixth round picks away and got 1 back.

 

We gave 2 seventh round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 2 eighth round picks away and got 3 back.

 

We gave 1 ninth round picks away and got 2 back.

 

 

Darcy likes those 2nd round picks don't he?

Great value in most drafts, still some great players on the board and a hell of a lot easier to get teams to give up than a first.

[MattPie]

You would be correct, let me rephrase that then.

The players that have been drafted by Regier that have performed in the NHL after leaving Buffalo have acheived greater success than here, in Buffalo.

A good indicator was Biron just last game.

Campbell has a Cup now, and he wasn't just a show piece, he contributed, both in SJ and in Chi town.

 

Then I look at Sarich, drafted by the Sabres and has had a decent career, better than when he was in Buffalo. He to, has a cup.

I look at the General up in Toronto who has performed better than when he was here.

There is Paille, another player that fits better in another system and also has a cup.

 

Hmm, Biron was basically run out of Philly as a starter within two years (I got to hear about that up close from the local fans), and has been bouncing around as a backup since. I like Marty, but he doesn't fit your model. Nor does Campbell has been so good that he wasn't retained by SJ after being traded in the last year of his contract, and was traded for peanuts to Florida. I seem to remember him being the 3rd pairing on that cup team. As others have said, MacArthur is the only guy that's really gotten better. Everyone else seems to be equal or has gone downhill.

 

Now Danny B. is an interesting study. The first year or two on the Flyers he was considered a complete bust, everyone here was crying about this $6m+ albatross hanging around their necks. Then something changed, either attitude or role or line mates and he's been reasonably good since. But I don't think he's been better than he was here, just the same.

[FolignosJock]

Hmm, Biron was basically run out of Philly as a starter within two years (I got to hear about that up close from the local fans), and has been bouncing around as a backup since. I like Marty, but he doesn't fit your model. Nor does Campbell has been so good that he wasn't retained by SJ after being traded in the last year of his contract, and was traded for peanuts to Florida. I seem to remember him being the 3rd pairing on that cup team. As others have said, MacArthur is the only guy that's really gotten better. Everyone else seems to be equal or has gone downhill.

 

Now Danny B. is an interesting study. The first year or two on the Flyers he was considered a complete bust, everyone here was crying about this $6m+ albatross hanging around their necks. Then something changed, either attitude or role or line mates and he's been reasonably good since. But I don't think he's been better than he was here, just the same.

 

You understand Campbell left SJ because he was a rental and that the BlackHawks gave him a MASSIVE contract??

 

 

I somewhat agree with the Cup run but their defense was stocked and he was coming off an injury... He still played pretty well in the playoffs. I just dont think he was in full form.

[nfreeman]

And how often are they drafted outside the top three or reach the free agency/trade market?

 

There are a couple of elite guys per year that change teams, either via UFA or trade. The problem with overpaying guys like Vanek, Pommer, Stafford and Hecht is that when you do that, you don't have the $7MM-$8MM salary cap slot to fit the elite guys when they become available.

 

EXACTLY Vanek is as near to a game changer as most in the league right now and our highest pick in a while.

 

No. Vanek is not a top 30 player in the league.

[FolignosJock]

There are a couple of elite guys per year that change teams, either via UFA or trade. The problem with overpaying guys like Vanek, Pommer, Stafford and Hecht is that when you do that, you don't have the $7MM-$8MM salary cap slot to fit the elite guys when they become available.

 

 

 

No. Vanek is not a top 30 player in the league.

 

Ill disagree and we are DEF not overpaying him... maybe the first year or so but not this year or the rest of his contract.

[carpandean]

And how often are they drafted outside the top three (outside of Detroit) or reach the free agency/trade market ?

 

Fixed. :thumbsup:

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

And how often are they drafted outside the top three or reach the free agency/trade market?

 

And how often are they drafted outside the top three or reach the free agency/trade market?

Great value in most drafts, still some great players on the board and a hell of a lot easier to get teams to give up than a first.

 

Eh? You confuse me!

[korab rules]

There are a couple of elite guys per year that change teams, either via UFA or trade. The problem with overpaying guys like Vanek, Pommer, Stafford and Hecht is that when you do that, you don't have the $7MM-$8MM salary cap slot to fit the elite guys when they become available.

 

 

 

No. Vanek is not a top 30 player in the league.

 

There may be a couple elite guys who change hands each year, depending on your definition - the initial verbiage was "game changers". I'm not sure whether elite is more or less selective than game changer - I perceived it as more selective, and would say that Brad Richards was maybe a game changer, and no one else came close.

 

I disagree that Vanek is not a top 30 player in the league. He is 18th in points this year, was 17th last year, is near the top of the league every year in PP production and is our only consistent playoff performer - what else do you want the guy to do?

Fixed. :thumbsup:

I thought the same thing after posting it.

 

Eh? You confuse me!

 

One comment concerned game changing players, the other was about Darcy's penchant for collecting second round picks. The only connection is that they appeared in the same thread. Still confused?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

The NHL is not like the NFL. In the NFL, a 2nd round pick is expected to make your team and has a fairly decent chance of being a starter in the first 2 years.

 

In the NHL, a 2nd round pick is a crapshoot to EVER make your team, and if they do, it usually takes 3 to 4 years to develop.

 

I think Darcy has always OVERVALUED draft picks, for the simple reason there are can't miss NHL starters out there that can be had on a regular basis by just giving up a 2nd round pick. For whatever reason, they suck in Buffalo when coming here at the deadline, but every guy Darcy has traded for at the deadline since the lockout is a viable NHL player in the league.

 

Instead of being able to identify what has been missing from this team and leveraging draft picks in the trade market to acquire those players, Darcy continues to build from within and disappoint. Even going into this year, we keep hearing about all these "prospects". Well then why didn't we go out there and use some of that supposed prospect asset that has been built up over 4 years of crappy play on the ice and zero playoff wins? We spent over the cap yet didn't come to camp with a healthy legit #1+#2 center on the team.

 

You could have had a hard working agitator in Max Talbot for $2 million in free agency. I have no idea why he wasn't looked at as that was a no-brainer to many here. How's he doing on Philly? He's not a #1 or #2, but could easily replace Gaustad next year if need be and it would have allowed you to trade some prospects along with a roster player or 2 to go and get a real difference maker since you got Talbot without giving anything up.

 

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.......especially when the ones in the bush are usually undersized and United Nations delegates.

[nfreeman]

I disagree that Vanek is not a top 30 player in the league. He is 18th in points this year, was 17th last year, is near the top of the league every year in PP production and is our only consistent playoff performer - what else do you want the guy to do?

 

Well, "top 30" includes defensemen and goaltenders. I don't have time now, but I think it would be pretty easy to name 30 players I'd rather have than Vanek. Frankly, I have a hard time thinking of a single NHL team that doesn't have a player whom I'd consider better than Vanek.

[FolignosJock]

 

Well, "top 30" includes defensemen and goaltenders. I don't have time now, but I think it would be pretty easy to name 30 players I'd rather have than Vanek. Frankly, I have a hard time thinking of a single NHL team that doesn't have a player whom I'd consider better than Vanek.

 

 

So would you consider him a top 30 forward?? How about a top 10 LW?

[korab rules]

The NHL is not like the NFL. In the NFL, a 2nd round pick is expected to make your team and has a fairly decent chance of being a starter in the first 2 years.

 

In the NHL, a 2nd round pick is a crapshoot to EVER make your team, and if they do, it usually takes 3 to 4 years to develop.

 

I think Darcy has always OVERVALUED draft picks, for the simple reason there are can't miss NHL starters out there that can be had on a regular basis by just giving up a 2nd round pick. For whatever reason, they suck in Buffalo when coming here at the deadline, but every guy Darcy has traded for at the deadline since the lockout is a viable NHL player in the league.

 

Instead of being able to identify what has been missing from this team and leveraging draft picks in the trade market to acquire those players, Darcy continues to build from within and disappoint. Even going into this year, we keep hearing about all these "prospects". Well then why didn't we go out there and use some of that supposed prospect asset that has been built up over 4 years of crappy play on the ice and zero playoff wins? We spent over the cap yet didn't come to camp with a healthy legit #1+#2 center on the team.

 

You could have had a hard working agitator in Max Talbot for $2 million in free agency. I have no idea why he wasn't looked at as that was a no-brainer to many here. How's he doing on Philly? He's not a #1 or #2, but could easily replace Gaustad next year if need be and it would have allowed you to trade some prospects along with a roster player or 2 to go and get a real difference maker since you got Talbot without giving anything up.

 

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.......especially when the ones in the bush are usually undersized and United Nations delegates.

 

Here's a list of our last few second round picks - Luke Adam, Drew Schiestal, TJ Brennan, Mike Weber, Jhonas Enroth,

 

Darcy has become a much better drafter over time, and there are still some very good prospects available in the second round. By the third, its pretty much a blur. In the NFL, that doesn't happen until the 5th.

 

Perhaps Darcy overvaluing draft picks was due to the fact that young players on entry level contracts are cheap, established players are more expensive, prior to the regime change he had a hard time enticing free agents to come to Buffalo, so the only way to field a competitive team under the budgetary constraints and reputation within the league was to draft and develop his own players until they became worth more than the franchise could afford?

[spndnchz]

Hmm, Biron was basically run out of Philly as a starter within two years (I got to hear about that up close from the local fans), and has been bouncing around as a backup since. I like Marty, but he doesn't fit your model. Nor does Campbell has been so good that he wasn't retained by SJ after being traded in the last year of his contract, and was traded for peanuts to Florida. I seem to remember him being the 3rd pairing on that cup team. As others have said, MacArthur is the only guy that's really gotten better. Everyone else seems to be equal or has gone downhill.

 

Now Danny B. is an interesting study. The first year or two on the Flyers he was considered a complete bust, everyone here was crying about this $6m+ albatross hanging around their necks. Then something changed, either attitude or role or line mates and he's been reasonably good since. But I don't think he's been better than he was here, just the same.

 

I have to find my post about this brb