nfreeman Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 OK, just trying to put a true number on the value of the injuries suffered by the Sabres this year. People may disagree, but given a full healthy group of players, your top 6 defensemen as shown by Ruff are Myers, Regehr, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Sekera, and Gragnani. Even though Ruff said Enroth and Miller were 1a and 1b, I think the safe assumption now is that Miller is your #1. The forwards, you would think that Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Stafford, Lieno, Ennis, Boyes, Hecht, Gerbe, Gaustad, Adam and Kaleta are your top 12.....not in exact order but roundabout. If this is the case, how many man-games have the Sabres actually lost to injury? Gaustad 1, Gerbe 1, Stafford 1, Regehr 1, Leopold 3, Boyes 6, Myers 7, Kaleta 10, Ennis 17, Hecht 20 Yes guys like McCormick and Weber have been hurt, but given your best roster, they weren't or wouldn't be playing. Miller missed 8 games, but given the rotation at the time, that could be reduced to anywhere between 2 and 6. So what do we really have? From your top 20 players, you had 75 man-games lost so far. I don't know offhand where other teams are, and I won't talk down the number. However, two players in Hecht and Kaleta have been in and out of the lineup for 2 years now. I don't know about you, but I don't count on them to be healthy bodies. Sad thing is, Hecht looks the best he has in 4 years. Ennis has been just about worthless from an offensive standpoint. The biggest difference maker to miss time has been Myers, and he was a healthy scratch 2 games prior to being injured. Miller was erratic at best before his injury and had been relegated to 1b. The 5 captains on the other hand have missed a total of 2 games. Your top 6 defensemen that were raved about have missed a total of 11 games. I understand the idea of organizational depth, and yes it is valued, however the pure raw numbers of games missed by supposed actual difference makers on this team is almost shockingly low given the vibe around the team. I just wanted to post these as I looked them up to ask myself if I have been too critical of the team for using injuries as an excuse. Excellent post. I think by the 2nd half of the season Weber will be in the lineup over MAG, and that you are overstating the impact of losing Miller and Myers, but you are still dead on about the 5 captains/alternates and most of the D group not being as banged up as the injury epidemic might otherwise indicate. For this team to be a contender, it will need Miller and Myers healthy and playing well, and the 5 captains/alternates either playing up to their roles or traded for players who can. Edited your post for brevity, but IMO the issue isn't so much about who has been out of the lineup as it is that the injuries have necessitated constant changing of the forward lines and D pairings. It doesn't excuse all the times when they mentally lost games they should have won, but chemistry and flow are tough to come by with the roster in constant flux. Also a good post. Without these injuries, the level of toughness that has presented itself in the last couple of weeks would have never surfaced. McNabb, Kassian and Tropp have brought something to this team that will hopefully spread throughout the locker-room once this team gets into April. They have also shown that there is no doubt in my mind a trade is coming up in the next couple months that will allow some of the toughness to stay up. Until this team gets Myers back (and back to form), the full potential of this team will be a question mark. Sabres are 3 points out of the division lead (shocking) and have not had a chance to gel with the toughness on board. Throw Myers, Gerbe, Gaustad, Kaleta and Weber in with some of the call ups, let some lines gel for a month or so and people will be surprised. Throw in the possibility that Miller improves and this might not be the trainwreck that many people see. Toughness Trade Myers Miller Learn it, know it, live it Another good one, especially the bolded parts. I also think it's more "likely" than "possible" that Miller improves -- he's been very sharp in 2 out of the 3 games since returning. I'm not that confident that a trade will happen but hope springs eternal. I agree that the toughness and "compete" we have seen from the fill-ins more than makes up for some of these softies that are in and out. McNabb is just an instinctive defenseman. That is how you play the game....the way he has since day 1 here. I love Szczechura even though he is not all world in potential. he just hustles in every little aspect and has great awareness. I hope some trades are coming. That still doesn't excuse the team for drafting guys years ago and hoping they would come along in time, yet ignore toughness and effort in the meantime. It's like a fatty saying they need to get in shape and then order a treadmill that won't be in stock for 3 years. Meanwhile the beer and Doritos keep going down the gullet. I like McNabb, although I'm concerned about (i) his propensity, when defending a 3-on-2 or a 4-on-3, to take out a forward with the body, thus turning it into a 2-on-1 or 3-on-2 and advantaging the opposition and (ii) he kinda looks like Angelina Jolie. As for the bolded part, I don't think they ignored toughness and effort on a team-wide basis, but they did do so in the top 6. I realize it is a moot point when the Sabres get healthier, but I'd take Sczfsfsfsf any day over Ellis. Anyone who has watched Ellis for the last few years believe that he could have made that pass to Pominville? I'd like at least a LITTLE bit of offense from my 4th line. I was thinking the exact same thing. Chewie is the new Ellis with a bit more skill.
spndnchz Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Posted December 10, 2011 Tropp with a concussion. That's concussion #6 for the Sabres.
inkman Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 I realize it is a moot point when the Sabres get healthier, but I'd take Sczfsfsfsf any day over Ellis. Anyone who has watched Ellis for the last few years believe that he could have made that pass to Pominville? I'd like at least a LITTLE bit of offense from my 4th line. I was thinking the exact same thing. Chewie is the new Ellis with a bit more skill. Based on that pass alone I'd try Chewy with 29 & 26. He has some ability, which is more than we can say about Ellis. I've never seen more wasted motion in a skating stride than Matt's.
inkman Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 Tropp with a concussion. I suppose it's nice he has that extra zero on the paycheck after getting his brain scrambled. I'm not sure if I have seen the Sabres have the rash of injuries that they are currently having. What is up with all the concussions? Seems more than a coincidence.
Taro T Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 Excellent post. I think by the 2nd half of the season Weber will be in the lineup over MAG, and that you are overstating the impact of losing Miller and Myers, but you are still dead on about the 5 captains/alternates and most of the D group not being as banged up as the injury epidemic might otherwise indicate. For this team to be a contender, it will need Miller and Myers healthy and playing well, and the 5 captains/alternates either playing up to their roles or traded for players who can. Also a good post. Another good one, especially the bolded parts. I also think it's more "likely" than "possible" that Miller improves -- he's been very sharp in 2 out of the 3 games since returning. I'm not that confident that a trade will happen but hope springs eternal. I like McNabb, although I'm concerned about (i) his propensity, when defending a 3-on-2 or a 4-on-3, to take out a forward with the body, thus turning it into a 2-on-1 or 3-on-2 and advantaging the opposition and (ii) he kinda looks like Angelina Jolie. As for the bolded part, I don't think they ignored toughness and effort on a team-wide basis, but they did do so in the top 6. I was thinking the exact same thing. Chewie is the new Ellis with a bit more skill. Referring to the bolded: I hope you're right, but I'm not as confident in that as you are. The 1 game that he looked shaky, he'd looked great until McNabb crashed into his head. He then gave up a couple more weak glove side shots. I am concerned that the neck injury he mentioned after Lucic hit him was bothering him prior and that it will still flare up. I expect to see teams crashing Miller more than ever until he demonstrates that the glove won't go south after he's been hit high. As for McNabb, it seemed to me that everytime I noticed him, he was making an awesome hit that led to an odd-man rush, or it was the Phlyers game where he was way too noticeable. Last night, I was very pleased with his game, I saw him make some very nice plays that weren't simply blowing somebody up. When he gets better at picking when to make that reality-altering hit, he could be a very good D-man.
SwampD Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 Based on that pass alone I'd try Chewy with 29 & 26. He has some ability, which is more than we can say about Ellis. I've never seen more wasted motion in a skating stride than Matt's. Goose?
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 Based on that pass alone I'd try Chewy with 29 & 26. He has some ability, which is more than we can say about Ellis. I've never seen more wasted motion in a skating stride than Matt's. I love this quote out of the Buffalo News.....maybe Lindy will meditate on this.... Asked about the success of Paul Szczechura, who has yet to practice with the team but has three assists in three games including one on Jason Pominville's OT winner, Ruff joked, "Maybe we should have everybody not practice with us. Maybe that's the secret. Our practices suck maybe."
tom webster Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 Referring to the bolded: I hope you're right, but I'm not as confident in that as you are. The 1 game that he looked shaky, he'd looked great until McNabb crashed into his head. He then gave up a couple more weak glove side shots. I am concerned that the neck injury he mentioned after Lucic hit him was bothering him prior and that it will still flare up. I expect to see teams crashing Miller more than ever until he demonstrates that the glove won't go south after he's been hit high. As for McNabb, it seemed to me that everytime I noticed him, he was making an awesome hit that led to an odd-man rush, or it was the Phlyers game where he was way too noticeable. Last night, I was very pleased with his game, I saw him make some very nice plays that weren't simply blowing somebody up. When he gets better at picking when to make that reality- altering hit, he could be a very good D-man. Of course when he gets better at picking his spots we will likely hear how Ruff neutered him.
tom webster Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 OK, just trying to put a true number on the value of the injuries suffered by the Sabres this year. People may disagree, but given a full healthy group of players, your top 6 defensemen as shown by Ruff are Myers, Regehr, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Sekera, and Gragnani. Even though Ruff said Enroth and Miller were 1a and 1b, I think the safe assumption now is that Miller is your #1. The forwards, you would think that Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Stafford, Lieno, Ennis, Boyes, Hecht, Gerbe, Gaustad, Adam and Kaleta are your top 12.....not in exact order but roundabout. If this is the case, how many man-games have the Sabres actually lost to injury? Gaustad 1, Gerbe 1, Stafford 1, Regehr 1, Leopold 3, Boyes 6, Myers 7, Kaleta 10, Ennis 17, Hecht 20 Yes guys like McCormick and Weber have been hurt, but given your best roster, they weren't or wouldn't be playing. Miller missed 8 games, but given the rotation at the time, that could be reduced to anywhere between 2 and 6. So what do we really have? From your top 20 players, you had 75 man-games lost so far. I don't know offhand where other teams are, and I won't talk down the number. However, two players in Hecht and Kaleta have been in and out of the lineup for 2 years now. I don't know about you, but I don't count on them to be healthy bodies. Sad thing is, Hecht looks the best he has in 4 years. Ennis has been just about worthless from an offensive standpoint. The biggest difference maker to miss time has been Myers, and he was a healthy scratch 2 games prior to being injured. Miller was erratic at best before his injury and had been relegated to 1b. The 5 captains on the other hand have missed a total of 2 games. Your top 6 defensemen that were raved about have missed a total of 11 games. I understand the idea of organizational depth, and yes it is valued, however the pure raw numbers of games missed by supposed actual difference makers on this team is almost shockingly low given the vibe around the team. I just wanted to post these as I looked them up to ask myself if I have been too critical of the team for using injuries as an excuse. I don't know about number of man games or who is more important, but to validate your point all you have to do is look to Minnesota who like Buffalo have been forced to use 32 players already yet are challenging for the league lead with 41 points.
SDS Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 I love this quote out of the Buffalo News.....maybe Lindy will meditate on this.... Asked about the success of Paul Szczechura, who has yet to practice with the team but has three assists in three games including one on Jason Pominville's OT winner, Ruff joked, "Maybe we should have everybody not practice with us. Maybe that's the secret. Our practices suck maybe." Did you make this up?
spndnchz Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Posted December 10, 2011 Did you make this up? It's true. Lindy had the whole room of journalists rolling on the floor laughing. About 3:10 mark http://video.sabres.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=668
SDS Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 It's true. Lindy had the whole room of journalists rolling on the floor laughing. About 3:10 mark http://video.sabres....nsole?catid=668 ok. It wasn't in that article he linked to and I could see how it could be true or sarcastic.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 ok. It wasn't in that article he linked to and I could see how it could be true or sarcastic. I can see where you may have been confused. Yep, he said it. Sometimes hockey is just hockey. Szczechura seems like he is able to anticipate where to put pucks and where to position himself on D. McNabb is playing on pure instincts when you see him make an open ice hit, or kick out that puck, or sell out for a full shot block. That's not a SYSTEM, that's trusting your guys to play off instinct. When you have to constantly think....you lose precious milliseconds that can make all the difference in the world. Someone said on the News Chat that Versus showed Ruff treating Vanek like a 5 year old. I didn't have audio when watching the game, but can anyone verify he was yelling at him "You look at me when I'm talking to you." and stuff along those lines? I mean, if true, we're talking about a grown man who is supposed to be one of your captains getting treated like that. Ruff is a smart guy. There is a lot to like about him, but it seems obvious he doesn't view his players as "partners" who all have the same goal of winning a championship. He consistantly takes on the role of drill sgt., gruff father, whatever you want to compare it to. An "elite" type player who has been around and is one of your captains shouldn't have to be degraded. If Lindy doesn't trust his star players to learn from their mistakes and understand and acknowledge certain things as given.....well, then they shouldn't be on the team. Is it any wonder Gilmour, Peca, and Drury all left town in a tizzy? Everyone learns everyday. Vanek still is learning. Maybe Lindy can learn from his own tongue-in-cheek remarks about Szczechura, the guy I have been most impressed with for the value out of anyone this year.
deluca67 Posted December 10, 2011 Report Posted December 10, 2011 These injuries have been a gift from the hockey gods. The Sabres have been forced to take a good look at some young players that wouldn't have allowed themselves otherwise. In most cases, the younger player has out preformed the established roster player. I'll even include McNabb and Myers in that point. Hopefully the Sabres front office realizes that more options have opened up for them if indeed they are planning to make mid-season trades.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 I can see where you may have been confused. Yep, he said it. Sometimes hockey is just hockey. Szczechura seems like he is able to anticipate where to put pucks and where to position himself on D. McNabb is playing on pure instincts when you see him make an open ice hit, or kick out that puck, or sell out for a full shot block. That's not a SYSTEM, that's trusting your guys to play off instinct. When you have to constantly think....you lose precious milliseconds that can make all the difference in the world. Someone said on the News Chat that Versus showed Ruff treating Vanek like a 5 year old. I didn't have audio when watching the game, but can anyone verify he was yelling at him "You look at me when I'm talking to you." and stuff along those lines? I mean, if true, we're talking about a grown man who is supposed to be one of your captains getting treated like that. Ruff is a smart guy. There is a lot to like about him, but it seems obvious he doesn't view his players as "partners" who all have the same goal of winning a championship. He consistantly takes on the role of drill sgt., gruff father, whatever you want to compare it to. An "elite" type player who has been around and is one of your captains shouldn't have to be degraded. If Lindy doesn't trust his star players to learn from their mistakes and understand and acknowledge certain things as given.....well, then they shouldn't be on the team. Is it any wonder Gilmour, Peca, and Drury all left town in a tizzy? Everyone learns everyday. Vanek still is learning. Maybe Lindy can learn from his own tongue-in-cheek remarks about Szczechura, the guy I have been most impressed with for the value out of anyone this year. You forgot Briere, Hasek ... the list goes on and on.
tom webster Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 You forgot Briere, Hasek ... the list goes on and on. The only two players that left in a public spat with Ruff, as far as I know, where Gilmour and Andreychuk and Gilmour was, as Ruff surmised, a washed up prima donna. In Andreychuk's case, there were some difficult dynamics to overcome because of their prior relationship. edit; forgot about Max, but then I forgot about him 2 years before he left.
SwampD Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 I can see where you may have been confused. Yep, he said it. Sometimes hockey is just hockey. Szczechura seems like he is able to anticipate where to put pucks and where to position himself on D. McNabb is playing on pure instincts when you see him make an open ice hit, or kick out that puck, or sell out for a full shot block. That's not a SYSTEM, that's trusting your guys to play off instinct. When you have to constantly think....you lose precious milliseconds that can make all the difference in the world. Someone said on the News Chat that Versus showed Ruff treating Vanek like a 5 year old. I didn't have audio when watching the game, but can anyone verify he was yelling at him "You look at me when I'm talking to you." and stuff along those lines? I mean, if true, we're talking about a grown man who is supposed to be one of your captains getting treated like that. Ruff is a smart guy. There is a lot to like about him, but it seems obvious he doesn't view his players as "partners" who all have the same goal of winning a championship. He consistantly takes on the role of drill sgt., gruff father, whatever you want to compare it to. An "elite" type player who has been around and is one of your captains shouldn't have to be degraded. If Lindy doesn't trust his star players to learn from their mistakes and understand and acknowledge certain things as given.....well, then they shouldn't be on the team. Is it any wonder Gilmour, Peca, and Drury all left town in a tizzy? Everyone learns everyday. Vanek still is learning. Maybe Lindy can learn from his own tongue-in-cheek remarks about Szczechura, the guy I have been most impressed with for the value out of anyone this year. Doesn't this describe every hockey coach? The only more horrible creature on the planet is the basketball coach.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 The only two players that left in a public spat with Ruff, as far as I know, where Gilmour and Andreychuk and Gilmour was, as Ruff surmised, a washed up prima donna. In Andreychuk's case, there were some difficult dynamics to overcome because of their prior relationship. edit; forgot about Max, but then I forgot about him 2 years before he left. I won't speak for GoDD, but I did not say, nor imply (but it is probable) that they left in a spat with Ruff (public, or not). If you recall Grier went to the Sharks in what I would call a spat with the Sabres organization, as he publicly stated he did not like the direction the team was going in. Hasek demanded to be traded ... Briere was pissed-off and rightly so IMHO.
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Doesn't this describe every hockey coach? The only more horrible creature on the planet is the basketball coach. Not at all. Look to Pittsburgh as an example. There needs to be discipline and some systemic form, but you have to loosen the boundries if you really want to have peak efficiency. Not every player is an immature kid. When you treat everyone like interchagable parts, they start to lose their identity. That's fine when you are dealing with 18yos in the army, but not when you deal with officers. That's what a guy like Vanek should represent...an officer. You respect the chain of command, but if they don't show respect to you, do you really expect them to perform to the best of their capabilities? Look at Marv Levy with the Bills. He knew how to take the temperature of that team. They lived and played on the edge, and Levy was able to keep loose boundries in knowing he was dealing with a bunch of guys that would crumble and eat each other up if they were restricted. It almost went the other way with the "Bickering Bills", but Marv was an artist more than a coach. The team respected him though and shut the hell up when he took command. They knew he had their backs on the field, with the refs, and in practice. Marv was a listener, not a "teller" like Lindy. Say what you want about those teams, but to be able to keep them at such a high level for 4 years takes a master. There are times when Ruff's style should work. Guys like Vanek, Roy, Conolly, Stafford need to be pushed and kept in control.......when they are kids in the system. Problem is, all the Sabres kids never seem to grow up. Is it because of poor team makeup? Or maybe could it be that nobody takes a leadership initiative because they are always treated like kids? Hockey should be a game of jazz. Structured, but leaving loose boundries to take advatage of individuality, creativity, leading to the group listening to each other and becoming one, through supporting that individual color. Lindy and Darcy seem to treat it like classical. Play what's on the paper and try to master it. I know plenty of great jazz players that can fill in with an orchestra at a moments notice. I know plenty of great classical players that I would let nowhere near the stage of a jazz gig. Both have their place and can be successful, but I respect the guy that has instinct and can swing much more than someone who locks themself in a practice room for 3 hours to master a piece. If someone is able to do both, then you really have something. Those guys are few and far between.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Not at all. Look to Pittsburgh as an example. ... There are times when Ruff's style should work. Guys like Vanek, Roy, Conolly, Stafford need to be pushed and kept in control.......when they are kids in the system. Problem is, all the Sabres kids never seem to grow up. Is it because of poor team makeup? Or maybe could it be that nobody takes a leadership initiative because they are always treated like kids? ... Sorry to cut out so much of your wise words, but in the interest of saving server space ... ;) The Penguins are a great example ... they actually got this concept twice ... one with Lemieux = 2 cups ... and then with Crosby = 1 cup (so far). I believe the underlined part falls on the shoulders of the coach when the players reach the NHL on a full-time basis.
MDFan Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Someone said on the News Chat that Versus showed Ruff treating Vanek like a 5 year old. I didn't have audio when watching the game, but can anyone verify he was yelling at him "You look at me when I'm talking to you." and stuff along those lines? I mean, if true, we're talking about a grown man who is supposed to be one of your captains getting treated like that The VS announcers did point out the tongue lashing that Ruff was giving Vanek and he deserved it. He started that game floating and not hustling. Ruff wants Vanek to be a leader on the ice and he pushes him. No problem with that. By the way, Vanek picked up his game considerably after that and the Sabres came to life. Nothing to criticize here. Good coaching IMO when the coach pushes his star player to play like a star.
LabattBlue Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Is anyone other than Weber expected back sometime this week??
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 The VS announcers did point out the tongue lashing that Ruff was giving Vanek and he deserved it. He started that game floating and not hustling. Ruff wants Vanek to be a leader on the ice and he pushes him. No problem with that. By the way, Vanek picked up his game considerably after that and the Sabres came to life. Nothing to criticize here. Good coaching IMO when the coach pushes his star player to play like a star. I really can't comment because I didn't hear it. It's one thing to drop a few F bombs to say get your game going.....if he yells at him to "Look at me when I'm talking to you...don't you look away".....that's a red flag to me if that is what was said. If a team "leader" at this point in his career needs to be scolded like that...he shouldn't be on the team, or these guys really have tuned out Ruff. It's a fine line. Again, how would a Gilmour, Drury, Peca, etc. act if Ruff said that to them? We just get back to the same circle of, are the players heartless? Is Darcy a poor judge of character? Is Ruff a one trick structure pony? It has to be one or more of these things, yet the show goes on as always.
LGR4GM Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Is anyone other than Weber expected back sometime this week?? Hecht could be back. It only bruised his foot from blocking the shot. Gerbe was at the tailgate tent last night so he can't be doing to bad but chz would be the one to ask if hes even practicing yet. I would like to point out that TC used to get all the concussions and now poof! He leaves and everyone else is going down... its the revenge of tim connolly.... :pirate:
inkman Posted December 11, 2011 Report Posted December 11, 2011 Goose? I suppose you are on Gaustad's hate wagon as well. His skating may leave a little to be desired but his arms and legs don't look like a mime doing a Usain Bolt impression. Ellis' arms and legs chug in such a furious motion someone should check his skates to make sure he's not skating on butter knives.
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